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Mumsnet has not checked the qualifications of anyone posting here. If you need help urgently or expert advice, please see our domestic violence webguide and/or relationships webguide. Many Mumsnetters experiencing domestic abuse have found this thread helpful: Listen up, everybody

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Tricky situation with friend & her 3 year old wild child!

79 replies

Spangletine · 19/07/2016 22:04

Hello you lot
I've name-changed because this is a really hard one
I have a great friend. Close for years. we both have 3 year olds.
I'm a believer in firm boundaries. My child is pretty low maintenance & lovely (apart from in this heat!) ever since my friend's child was about 18 months old she has been quite violent (has pushed/hit my child/bitten several people & last week hit my friend in the face) Child also rarely listens, has melt downs all the time, and is very difficult. My friend is constantly saying how 'lucky' I am to have such an 'angel' & gets really upset as she 'can't take hers anywhere' but I have never seen her give boundaries/tell her child that her behaviour isn't ok etc. Ever. In fact she is always walking on eggshells while the kid calls the shots. Her child tried to hit my child again last week.
Finding it hard to be around them & not really able to relax as her child's behaviour is unpredictable. Really hard to say 'how about some consequences for your child?' Without offending her when there are things been thrown at me & my child or just general chaos. Found myself making excuses to not hang out the other day....
Asked her if she thinks she need any support with child & she dismissed it. My child said ' I don't like %#* anymore the other day. WWYD?

OP posts:
fanjoforthemammaries7850 · 20/07/2016 22:12

The clue is in the first word Chipped and the poster Chippednailvarnishing

fanjoforthemammaries7850 · 20/07/2016 22:13

Re the OP at least she has considered the possibility there might be SN and is open to considering everything unlike some.

fanjoforthemammaries7850 · 20/07/2016 22:17

If a child is unmanageable there is not any harm in considering every possible reason for the behaviour rather hand just always parent blaming.

FreshHorizons · 20/07/2016 22:17

Still mystified. Are we talking about the same thread? Confused

fanjoforthemammaries7850 · 20/07/2016 22:17

Rather *than

fanjoforthemammaries7850 · 20/07/2016 22:19

Well you'll have to stay mystified then, it's not that hard to read thread and look for the poster I was referring to as chipped who was talking about a 9 year old.

And it's really crap to minimise my opinion just because you don't have the same experiences as me,

FreshHorizons · 20/07/2016 22:23

I have now found a poster called Chipped.
I will amend my advice to ask your friend about special needs and outside help. If she is willing to get help then try your best to support her but if she is unwilling to do anything I should stick to seeing her without your children.

Not all bad behaviour is down to special needs. Some is down to parents who want to be best friends and can't do the unpopular of saying 'no'.

FreshHorizons · 20/07/2016 22:25

My friend's child did not have special needs- the children simply didn't like each other from the very start so it was pointless making them spend time together just because we were good friends and they were the same age.

Chippednailvarnishing · 20/07/2016 22:26

The majority of 9 year olds don't spend their time kicking and screaming and that would make me think a bit further than poor parenting tbh

He doesn't kick and scream when he gets his own way, the film he wants to see, the toy he wants, the first to go on anything, the largest portion of cake, has to be the centre of attention, get the biggest laugh, win the race, etc. As long as his every demand is indulged, he's fine. As soon as it doesn't go his way he kicks off, whilst his DM stands around meekly and does nothing. No consequences for bad behaviour, no punishments.

Speaking as a parent of a child with SEN I'm frankly tired of people suggesting chair diagnoses for children who have never been given simple boundaries.

fanjoforthemammaries7850 · 20/07/2016 22:34

I said it's possible. Of course I can't diagnose. I'm tired of people being closed minded and thinking they can't be because they have a child with SN, tbh.

fanjoforthemammaries7850 · 20/07/2016 22:37

Not all bad behaviour is down to special needs. Some is down to parents who want to be best friends and can't do the unpopular of saying 'no'.

I never said it was. FfS. Mentioning a possibility doesn't mean excluding all others. Nothing is so black and white.

Anyway the OP is the important one here and she has opened her mind to all possibilities so that's the main thing.

If others want to think that the mere fact of mentioning SN means that I am excluding any other issue then have at it. It's bollocks but hey ho.

fanjoforthemammaries7850 · 20/07/2016 22:38

OP I hope you reach some resolution with your friend and that she learns to cope. You do sound like a good friend Flowers

FreshHorizons · 20/07/2016 22:45

There could be any number of reasons, but one is simply a wet parent! There are lots of them around.

Taylor22 · 20/07/2016 22:47

Next time she suggests an activity for your children I would reply with
'Sorry but due to Xxx are sion towards DD she has said she no longer wants to see xxx.'

Taylor22 · 20/07/2016 22:48

*aggression

fanjoforthemammaries7850 · 20/07/2016 22:57

I never said that wasn't a possibility fresh horizons. It's always others who project that every time anyone mentions SN. Even though people say there are different possibilities. It's very strange. Anyway I have been up since 430 and my bed awaits

Chippednailvarnishing · 20/07/2016 23:03

There could be any number of reasons, but one is simply a wet parent!

Exactly. Parents who have DCs with SEN run themselves ragged looking after their DCs trying to manage their needs and behaviours . Parents who have DC's with no boundaries or discipline don't.

Chippednailvarnishing · 20/07/2016 23:06

I'm tired of people being closed minded and thinking they can't be because they have a child with SN

and I'm tired of people trying to project SN as an excuse for poor parenting. One has no relation to the other.

fanjoforthemammaries7850 · 20/07/2016 23:10

Projecting SN as an excuse for poor parenting?

No actually a poster in the thread has explained very clearly that she has found that the best way to parent her son with SN is to ignore bad behaviour.

Which could look like bad parenting whereas she is trying really hard.

But have you read the Myth no 1 in this is my child which is that "behavioural disorders are just an excuse for poor parenting". Maybe you should.

fanjoforthemammaries7850 · 20/07/2016 23:13

Good night

Chippednailvarnishing · 20/07/2016 23:21

I doubt she would allow her child to hurt other children, which is exactly the situation the OP is in, because her friend isn't stepping up. Nothing to do with SN, everything to do with poor parenting.

WombOfOnesOwn · 20/07/2016 23:21

That "myths" link is hilariously terrible. Myth #1 is that some parents use disorders as a fashionable way to cover up poor parenting and bad behavior. If you read the content of the "debunking" as written here on MN, it consists of no joke "these disorders actually exist! Look, here's an organization that says they exist!"

I don't think anyone with half a brain doubts there are children with these disorders. But the idea that it's a "myth" that bad parents sometimes use disorders as a way of excusing inexcusable parenting? That's horrifyingly wrong.

Would you like to know how I know? Oh, I knew you would. Let's have storytime.

My sister and I were often very well behaved in public, but then sometimes quite terribly behaved. We would have physical fights in public. In school, I displayed highly age-inappropriate behaviors like hiding under desks at 13, never handing in homework, being defiant toward teachers even at age 6-7.

At age 10, my mother went doctor-shopping for an ADHD diagnosis. It took three psychiatrists, but she finally found one who'd do it. Got put on meds (which I spat out as soon as I was out of view, because they made me grind my teeth) and everything. My teachers were told about my disorder, and had to make accommodations.

Would you like to know what was actually going on behind those closed doors? It was non-stop, unending physical, emotional, and verbal abuse. My mother hit us with belts, dragged us down the stairs by our hair for talking back even slightly, forced us to do chore quotas that kept us awake all night (gee, I wonder why I slept through classes or seemed distracted), threatened suicide and disappeared for days, called us every sexually degrading name in the book before either of us had a first kiss, and generally made our lives relentless misery.

The signs of severe abuse were there: the tiredness, the defiance, the hitting, the memory loss. But because my mother had done a fine job pasting over the rough bits of our personalities with "behavioral disorders," she was lauded as a fine parent doing a difficult job with kids who must make her life hell.

Surely I'm the only one, right? Nope. Two of my best friends were also put in similar situations -- abused terribly, one sexually, then diagnosed with behavioral disorders instead of anyone getting a clue about what was going on at home.

I'm sorry, but when I see children who develop hitting behaviors that go uncorrected by a parent, I assume they are witnessing extensive corporal punishment and/or outright abuse in the home.

Surely that's a horrible assumption, right? Consider this: according to the NSPCC, 1 in 5 children is subjected to "severe maltreatment" (webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:Lg_ptuBrIE8J:www.nspcc.org.uk/services-and-resources/research-and-resources/pre-2013/child-abuse-and-neglect-in-the-uk-today/+&cd=4&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=us&client=safari). That's 20%. Compare that to ADHD, the most common behavioral disorder, with a prevalence of just 3-5%. Even if you add up all of the behavioral disorders, it's significantly more likely that a random child you see hitting someone is an abuse victim than that they have SN/SEN -- especially if they're not "visibly" disabled, because those with generally-invisible SN/SEN are even less common. For that matter, if even one in ten abusers choose to attempt to disguise their abuse or neglect with a diagnosis of a behavioral disorder (or one in ten abused children is diagnosed with one instead of the therapist noticing the abuse signs), a huge proportion of existing children with SN are also abuse victims.

I know, I know, we're all so special here, we'd NEVER be friends with abusers. My mom's friends thought so, too. They thought she was a lovely woman and we must be such terrible children, while all the time we were hiding bruises under long sleeves.

gandalf456 · 20/07/2016 23:29

So sorry to hear your story,wombFlowers

As for the OP, I have been her - the rightfully protective parent. And I've been the friend with the wayward child I couldn't control. I have lost friendships this way from both sides of the fence. Indeed, it can (and sometimes has been an sn issue). Others, it has been a phase for either her child or mine, which has passed albeit too late to save the friendship. Sadly, this can be what makes parenting relationships so fickle

Didiusfalco · 20/07/2016 23:37

Womb that's horrifying - so sorry you went through that.

I guess it shows it pays to keep an open mind to all possibilities.

fanjoforthemammaries7850 · 21/07/2016 08:26

womb that is very hard and I'm sorry you went through that. I have some experience of what you are talking about and understand.

But its not great to always assume children with actual behavioural disorders must be being abused at home either, although the possibility should always be at back of people's minds.

People can be struggling with parenting and its not very nice for them if people are assuming that its naughtiness... go and read the Daily Mail comments section any time there is a story about ADHD and ASD and read a million people saying "its just naughtiness", if you want to see that myth in action. It does exist, unfortunately.

One should always keep an open mind and consider ALL possibilities, surely?

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