Tricky situation with friend & her 3 year old wild child!

[Spangletine]

Hello you lot
I've name-changed because this is a really hard one
I have a great friend. Close for years. we both have 3 year olds.
I'm a believer in firm boundaries. My child is pretty low maintenance & lovely (apart from in this heat!) ever since my friend's child was about 18 months old she has been quite violent (has pushed/hit my child/bitten several people & last week hit my friend in the face) Child also rarely listens, has melt downs all the time, and is very difficult. My friend is constantly saying how 'lucky' I am to have such an 'angel' & gets really upset as she 'can't take hers anywhere' but I have never seen her give boundaries/tell her child that her behaviour isn't ok etc. Ever. In fact she is always walking on eggshells while the kid calls the shots. Her child tried to hit my child again last week.
Finding it hard to be around them & not really able to relax as her child's behaviour is unpredictable. Really hard to say 'how about some consequences for your child?' Without offending her when there are things been thrown at me & my child or just general chaos. Found myself making excuses to not hang out the other day....
Asked her if she thinks she need any support with child & she dismissed it. My child said ' I don't like %#* anymore the other day. WWYD?

Nah fuck em. Just bin them off, don't try to work it out.

Apostrophe has it exactly right for the scenario where the parent with the DC who hurts others won't engage, or the parent attacks you after you've approached the situation in an adult-to-adult way as a friend. What else can you do but remove yourself and your DC?

OP, I think you should approach your friend about it gently if a pattern of behaviour had been setting in, as frankly, you have nothing left to lose now.

Keep it factual about your DC experience of being hurt etc. Leave aside any talk about 'you as a parent' and what you would do or your thoughts on 'her as a parent'. Just say that between you both as parents, it needs to be managed better because your kids are getting hurt.

Hopefully you'll get to a better mutual understanding and you can support each other and all will be well.

But if she won't engage with what you are saying, then definitely minimise contact for the sake of your kids.

Don't do what I did and put a grown up's delicate ego above your own DC's wellbeing. I wish I had said something to my ex-friend in a similar situation months earlier, but I didn't out of misguided loyalty to my 'friend' and fear of upsetting her.

My DC have definitely suffered as a result because of her DC behaviour and I feel awful about it now. I miss my friend a lot but with her ridiculous attitude of denial of what was going on, the friendship could not have survived anyway. I hope it works out much more positively for you, good luck.

Your friend has acknowledged that there's a behaviour gap between your DC and hers, this is great and opens a communication opportunity.

Could you say that you'd been thinking about what she'd said about worrying that her DC was a bit unpredictable when out and about, whilst yours was relatively reliable. By saying that you've been 'thinking about it' makes it sound like the difference was raised by her and is not instantly bloody obvious.

And say that you'd realised that the main difference is that you're more vocal about behaviour and consequences with your DC and give her some examples:

'So when DC did X the other day, my response was Y' etc.

Maybe that's all she needs, it'll also re-open comms in case she wants to open-up about her DC and her worries about their behaviour.

I agree it could be SN. Quite often, it takes a number of years to diagnose some SN children. My dd has SN. She is ASD, but has excellent verbal skills and eye contact.

Due to her ASD, she suffers from extremely high anxiety levels which means that when she is triggered, she may appear to most people to behave inappropriately and her meltdowns are seen by many as a massive tantrum.
I have found that harsh discipline at this stage is counterproductive and increases her anxiety. The most effective thing for us is for my dd to remain calm and there are times when she is so anxious that she lashes out and becomes very aggressive, both physically and verbally.
10 years ago, I may have thought a child behaving in this way was just very naughty and lacked boundaries and discipline, but I can assure you that living day in day out with a child that struggles tremendously with the world, despite appearing to just be wilful and difficult, is incredibly draining and frustrating.

I have implemented very harsh discipline for many many weeks, remaining consistent for weeks at a time and found it isn't effective at all in teaching my dd good behaviour.

If I had a pound for every time someone told me my dd wouldn't behave this way if she was their child, I'd be an incredibly rich lady.
The people with all the amazing quick fix solutions, and by quick fix, I mean a matter of months of discipline and boundaries to see even a slight improvement, are people who imo don't appreciate how incredible difficult it is to actually live with a child with these issues.

If it was as simple as a spanking, believe me, I'd have done that and indeed I have resorted to every form of discipline to no avail but I don't give up..I just find different ways to cope...ways that mean my dd avoids escalating anxiety and therefore we avoid many meltdowns.

I do appreciate it is difficult for friends to cope with and appreciate the friends who, instead of 'fixing' my parenting, work around the issues by seeing me when I am alone rather than try to 'help' by pointing out the glaringly obvious things that I've already tried.
Personally I have found that in the past when I have tried to explain how ineffective usual forms of discipline are for my dd, I end up spending a huge amount of time trying to convince people that it's ineffective and they still think they know better.

My advice is to see your friend without her children present but don't automatically assume she's not struggling herself with her child. It's incredibly difficult to cope with an aggressive child. Most parents I've come across with children who present these challenges would absolutely love a simple solution...if it is effective.

Just see her in the evenings childfree. That way you get to keep your friendship.

You don't sound smug at all to me OP, far from it.

Nobody should put up with violence from anyone, no matter their age, she's putting her child before yours and allowing him to throw things at you and your child with no real consequence, that's not on, she's not considering you or your child here so do the same back, tell her you can't have your child around hers as it's too stressful and unpredictable, see less of her as well, she might actually realise that she has to do something about it.

When my child was a baby I saw a girl who had a baby too and I spent most of the time shielding my child from bites, scratches and lunges - her mum did nothing either, tbh, I thought fuck this, I never saw them again, it was just not worth the aggro.

Fanjo - many thanks for that link about SN but I don't need it thanks as I live with it everyday.

The OP has stated that the mother does nothing about the behaviour and the child isnt diagnosed.

I find it pretty insulting to have poor parenting and the consequence behaviour excused by the "possibility" of SN when no indication has been given of any. It really degrades those of us who do have kids with SN.

no it doesnt.

and its clearly possible to live with it every day and still spout the myths then.

surprised if you live with it that you havent been faced with people telling you its your parenting and wishing they'd understand...

Do please read myth number 1 "behavioural disorders are used as an excuse for poor parenting". Thanks.

I wasnt even first to mention the possibility. But it is a possibility and I'm sure the OP wants to consider all options so she can do best by her friend. Perhaps the child needs assessed, of their behaviour is too much to cope with,.

It's not degrading to mention all the options in any way.

I sometimes have to discipline my DS in a way that is really unhelpful for him in order to appear like I am doing something that other parents will approve of. It doesn't really help him.

For example, if he pushes or hits DD then at home the outcome would be that poor DD gets loads of attention and he gets none. So he is not told "no hitting". If he is (especially if we forget) then he thinks this is a great game and he does it more. But if he hits DD in public and gets no consequences at all I can hear the sucked in teeth so sometimes I have to tell him off when really I'd rather ignore.

I have tried time out/time in for public misbehaviour but honestly it just ends up with him hitting more (made another such mistake yesterday) so I really don't think it's worth it. I am trying to get over the "all the other parents think he's won because I haven't told him off" feeling.

He was in the car with my DM driving and kicked her seat. When he does this with me driving I ignore him and he gets bored and stops. Or he tells me "I'm kicking your seat mummy" and I tell him I'm not interested and he gets bored and ditto.

My DM went into full on "stop that right NOW" mode and DS thought it was hilarious and kicked even more. No I won't he says. Yes you will she says. DM, you are not going to win that. Just ignore him and he'll stop.

So if you want to have a word with your DF, then maybe ask what she's tried and whether she knows what hasn't worked, or what else she's thinking of trying.

My DS can look like he has no boundaries at all in public, sometimes.

He does, but the means by which other parents choose to enforce the boundaries can lead to him becoming more violent, or carrying on with the behaviour, or frankly becoming scared an unable to control himself.

Ignoring him and comforting DD (or carrying on driving) is showing him that bad behaviour doesn't get attention and that his current behaviour is beyond my boundary.

But op, being a good friend of many years, is not aware of mum attempting various failed strategies, struggling to find a strategy that works, saying 'I'll discipline him when we get home as doing so now will make the situation worse', apologising on behalf of her child or anything else suggested here.

She has said that her friend has never set boundaries or checked unwanted behaviour, ever.

This child might have sen, we don't know, or this woman may be ineffective at disciplining her child. Such people do exist in the world you know.

"Such people do exist in the world you know"

I thought there was a swifter response by MNHQ to these kind of sarky SN brigade type posts recently

I never share my discipline strategies with my mum friends. I did tell my DM that ignoring DS was the best way to go, but I wouldn't explain to my friends while DS is hitting DD in public that ignoring him and paying attention to her is our preferred strategy. I just do it.

Hi all
Posted this last thing before I fell asleep last night & just finished a crazy day at work. No MN opportunities all day!
Thanks loads for all the responses (haven't had a proper read yet)
Just wanna add that I LOVE my friend to bits & prob didn't get across that I want to be able to help & support her if she wants but don't wanna come across as smug & patronising - as I said, won't get to look properly til this eve.

I've been in the same position, my friend's DS was very aggressive to my DS. She never disciplined him, in fact his poor behaviour would be rewarded with small gifts and bribes to try and get him to behave. I did tell her that I thought she wasn't strict enough, but it fell on deaf ears. It got to the point that at age 7, my DS told me he really didn't want to see him anymore. Interestingly my DS has SEN, her DS doesn't.

I started seeing her without the kids, but the friendship cooled. A mutual friend who moved away visited them recently and took her Ds's with her. She was shocked (I has warned her but I think she thought I was exaggerating) by the door kicking, screaming nine year old who greeted her. They had to separate the DCs in the end, as he was so aggressive everytime something didn't go his way.
Personally I would firstly try meeting without the DCs around, as your child repeatedly getting hurt isn't worth any friendship.

First, I would say all children are different. I have two DSs who have always been quite biddable, and one who most definitely is not. I don't think my parenting has been very different with them, but with the wilder one it has certainly been more difficult and teaching him social mores has taken longer at every single stage.

That said, if you don't agree with her parenting methods itself, I'd say from experience that it would be better to socialise primarily without the DC.

Thanks everyone - was not expecting so many responses.
Yes can see how I came across a bit smug. Really don't think I am-think I'm just a bit at the end of my tether as have really tried to keep on with the play dates & get togethers but it always ends up as friends child kicking off & throwing stuff/breaking stuff/being violent then being given stuff (sweets/time on iPad/treats) to keep her happy & it makes me feel kinda frustrated.... Because the next time this kids behaviour is even worse. She rules the roost! And she's 3... And she runs off all the time in public places. My friend just looks exhausted all the time & refers to her daughter as 'the nightmare'.
Peeps who said maybe just stick to seeing friend without kids, yes maybe a gd idea. I did suggest a reward chart - I think reward charts work wonders- but don't think that's in place. Yes, SN maybe.
Next time I Talk to my friend I'll ask about everything & try to support her (if she wants that) however I can...
Thanks MNers

We've seen positive changes in our DS following some of our strategies but reward charts would never work with him and they don't with a lot of children. They have to be able to think ahead and control their behaviour over a pretty long period of time. A very rare 3 year old who can do that.

With mine, consequences don't work. It needs to be positive reinforcement for good behaviour. Ignoring (as much as possible) bad behaviour or distraction is the best way to move past it. But that's due to autism/ADHD and when sensory overload hits, nothing works.

All children, even those on the spectrum, are different and can respond to different parenting methods.

Chipped loads of kids aren't diagnosed until very late. I'm surprised no one has at least considered the possibility of SEN in a child who kicks and screams and wants to control everything. Classic ASD signs.

The majority of 9 year olds don't spend their time kicking and screaming and that would make me think a bit further than poor parenting tbh.