Is my husband nasty & mean or am I completely at fault?

[gummychops]

Just need some perspective as I don't know what to do.
We've been together 5 years, married for 2, & have a 5 months old who we both adore. Were both fairly long in the tooth (I'm now 38 & he's 46) when we met, & fell madly in love very quickly. I love him to bits most of the time, but he's a nightmare to communicate with, & we can't discuss anything contentious without it turning into an argument.
If something has annoyed me, or we've had cross words, I'll want to talk about it & let him know why it annoyed/upset me. But he just wants to forget it happened & move on. To me, that just harbours resentment & means the "issue" will likely keep recurring.

Our latest barny started like this: I put baby to bed last night. (Nearly always me doing it as DH works late) As per usual, he fought going to sleep in bedside cot, wailed for ages, & eventually fell asleep snuggled up beside me on bed. As he nodded off, I suddenly had revelation that maybe bedroom is just too bright for him, with light curtains & facing evening sun. (Maybe this should have occurred to me sooner....doh!....) So when I eventually got back downstairs I reported my (hopefully) genius revelation to DH, saying I would try putting something darker over window to see if it helped. Note: DH was in the throes of a college assignment with a midnight deadline, but in fairness he had left it to the last minute as per usual. But he had asked how bedtime went, & I only planned to tell him re curtains idea & then leave him to work. Anyway, he dismissed the whole notion, started saying "I think we're putting him to bed too early" - kept repeating this, (we're not - it's usually between 7-8pm), "what's the big deal?"(doh! - baby is wailing & upset & obviously it's not nice for me either) He started saying "why don't we just keep baby downstairs until he's sleepy?" (we/I do!). Also, when it's him putting baby to bed if I'm out (twice!) "he just brings him out for a walk maybe at 9pm to get him to nod off , why can't we just do that every night?" I explained again all about bedtime routines etc, which he should know. He was obviously getting frustrated with conversation & saying "what do you want me to do???!!". I didn't want him to do anything! I just wanted to mention curtains idea, & didn't appreciate him suddenly questioning & criticising the whole bedtime routine I had been trying to establish 😞To clarify, baby sometimes goes to sleep easily enough, but has been bad every night for past week.
I left the room, then called into him asking when he was ready for dinner. He grumpily said he didn't know, I said "well, are you hungry?, again a grumpy "I don't know, I'm not hungry, I'm busy, I'm under pressure" So of course I got cranky & said "I'm only trying to help!" I warmed up dinner & gave it to him, popped in once or twice to see if he wanted a cup of tea, but was stand-off ish & obviously still annoyed.

Sorry this is so long! Fast forward to today, & we're both civil with each other but not exactly friendly or affectionate.
I tried to start a conversation by saying "you were a bit stressed last night". I planned to then let him know I was upset about direction conversation took last night, & ask why was he suddenly questioning & criticising bed TIME all of a sudden, & let him know why it pissed me off.
That's not how our discussion went tho! Before I'd barely got a word out, he blew up at me. Apparently, he "wasn't stressed!!!". He was "under pressure!!!" I said, ok I was just trying to be supportive (i.e. re making dinner when he wanted it) Apparently I should have just made it & handed it to him. (N.B. he's not a caveman, he does most of the cooking) And "I wasn't being supportive, I was trying to cause an argument as usual".
I barely got to say a word for the next few minutes....he started getting really angry, saying I'm always looking for an argument, that's my pattern etc, why can't I just leave things. He wouldn't let me explain why I was upset. I was crying & at one point he sneeringly complained about my "pathetic whining". When I tried to ask if he meant the crying, or having a moan about the baby the previous night, he really blew up. Apparently I was always asking questions, interrogating him etc. Why couldn't I just "reflect on my own behaviour". He also called me a moron & a psycho at various points.
I tried to say, as I've done during/after previous arguments, that we just deal with conflicts differently - I want to discuss, he wants to ignore, why can't we compromise or maybe get some help from a counsellor blah blah blah... But when he's like this he just won't listen to anything.....
But also, if I try to suggest same when everything is rosy between us he says it's unnecessary, every couple falls out etc etc....why am I bringing it up, almost getting annoyed...

Sorry again this is so long, but I have 2 main questions.
How do we improve our communication when we're so different or should I just adopt his way of ignoring every conflict/issue as he's unwilling to change?

Is it ok for one person to say such horrible things (moron, psycho etc) in the heat of an argument, & then expect the other person not to be seriously considering divorce?

I think he was in the wrong. If he was under pressure with his assignment and didn't want a discussion at that point, he should have said that. It sounds like he was happy enough to point out every way in which you were wrong with your approach to the baby, indicating that he was happy to discuss it, so I don't blame you for arguing back.

Really weird replies here!

Husband initiated the conversation by asking about how bedtime went. OP didn't interrupt him. Then he carried on a long list of 'solutions' when he could have said 'Yes, give that a go' and carried on working!

The next day, she wanted to find out why her simple statement had caused a huge row in hopes of making sure it didn't happen next time. He went mad as soon as she spoke, verbally abused her and made her cry.

Yet somehow OP is hard work? Also, where did the 'phoning him at work' bit come from? Phones aren't mentioned at all.

OP he behaved very badly and stress is no excuse for that level of abuse. How you decide to go from here is up to you- I would be thinking counselling rather than LTB for now. Please don't carry on thinking you're the bad guy despite the odd replies from most people.

Sometimes it's an eye opener to find out how his parents interacted with each other when he was growing up. He may regard arguing or bickering as quite 'normal' if his parents communicated in this way.

My dh and I argue quite a lot but it's all soon forgotten, we're both quite opinionated. Neither of us dwell on it or bring it up in later conversations.

Your dh was understandably stressed but that doesn't excuse him speaking to you like that. I would have calmly stated, 'Don't speak to me like that' and walked away. He owes you an apology. Does it not cross his mind that looking after a 5 month old is bloody hard work and you are under pressure yourself? Perhaps he thinks you lie down eating grapes all day.

BTW, black out curtains worked a treat when mine were little. Great idea.

OP, sympathy. I agree totally with SilverDragonfly.

Your h was in the wrong. His deadline - his responsibility. If it had been a one-off you could have put it down to deadline pressure, but if he's like this every time you need to talk, then you have a problem.

Name calling is never good. No wonder you're angry with him.

When his deadline has passed, can you sit down and chat to him about how it makes you feel and what you'd like to happen in future? But if he's always been like this then I'm not sure hat to advise. Will he/can he change?

OP said that her h wanted to discuss the baby's bedtime and routine - sounds like he was happy to discuss everything that OP is doing wrong with baby. Deadline didn't matter then!!

I'm sorry, but I'm sure even Mother Teressa would have lost her cool. When someone is on a stressy deadline like that, the only answer to banal questions asked for politeness sake is 'fine thanks'. It's not the time to start prattling on about black out blinds and other shite.

Some of the things he said were a bit nasty and his suggestion of taking the baby out for a walk everynight is crap,, but fgs, just get on with what you think is a good solution and if you need to discuss it, do it at a more appropriate time.

I'd ignore the tosser and just get on with sorting out blackout curtains if you want them (waste of time for a baby/child if you ask me - your baby will get through this phase soon enough) and give him loads of space (ie ignore). If he asks why you are being uncommunicative, tell him it's because you are trying to deal with your inner psycho/moron so as to make his life easy. I would not put up with that crap and much as I don't like sulking, I would do it for him. Sorry, but this one is not a keeper.

Thanks for all the replies. So a lot of people think I'm annoying? Cheers for that. Thanks Silver for standing up for me. As you said, HE asked how bedtime went, he heard crying. I told him & then mentioned curtains idea, & was ready to leave him to work. I wasn't "prattling on about black out blinds & other shite" HE continued the conversation, full of suggestions about what I had been doing wrong all along. He didn't say "good idea, let's talk later" or "I don't think that will work, let's talk later". He all of a sudden was full of criticism of how I've been putting baby to bed for weeks. It pissed me off!
I then left him in his home office to work. We always have dinner together if he's home, so I called into his office asking when he wanted to eat & the conversation about hungry/not hungry ensued. I didn't keep going in to him/continue the argument/keep annoying him, or anything like that as some posts have accused. I put his dinner in front of him, went back later to ask if he wanted tea. No other words were spoken to distract him.

I don't think I did anything majorly wrong that evening??!!

The following day his assignment had been submitted so the pressure was off. I wanted to discuss the previous evening & tell him he had pissed me off. Maybe this was a bad idea - that's what I'm trying to establish! Is it better to always forget about it when your OH annoys/criticises/upsets you? Just suck it up & get over it? He doesn't want to go back over it so just leave it in the past?

Sometimes "Least said, soonest mended" applies.

Not always, but perhaps this time.

Op: was I wrong?
Mumsnet: yes
Op: no! No I wasn't (stamping foot)

You're not helping your case that you're not hard work...

If dh called me either of those names i would be considering divorce and I would not be least said soonest mended in anyway.
Your behaviour sounds within the realms of normal and I am sorry you were verbally abused.
We're all annoying etc sometimes but civilised adults don't call each other moron or psycho...the person you promised to cherish

Sorry pottering, but can you be more specific? Was I wrong that evening? I don't agree but if you'll explain why I'm open to criticism.
Or wrong to bring it up the following day? I genuinely came on MN cos I want to know people's opinions on re-hashing arguments.

What did you expect from bringing it up the next day? In this specific scenario, it seems that you just restarted the argument. There seems to have been no good reason to do that.

Name calling is completely unacceptable but you do sound rather irritating until that point. It comes across like you had a clear idea of how you wanted the conversation to go and he didn't adhere to it. He did ask how bedtime went, and you said badly - so he gave suggestions on fixing it, as did you, but his were criticisms? I do think it would have been wise to postpone the conversation so he could concentrate, too. He was being nice talking to you but it didn't need to be an elongated conversation at that point.

Your other reasons for talking to him are excuses. He can sort his own tea, or you make it and take it through. Same for tea. They are nice ideas, but he was working - so they go from being nice to being inconvenient, but that type of inconvenient that you can't moan about because you know the person was trying to help.

Do you talk to other people regularly? Are you bored? You sound a bit lonely, and like you crave his attention when he gets home.

Although again, he was out of order to call you names.

He was wrong to call you names.

You were wrong to not just leave him alone when you knew he was stressed and on a deadline. As you knew there was a specific reason for how he reacted you were also wrong when you tried to rehash it and not just to let it go.

Thanks for that pottering. I don't immediately agree but I'll think about what you've said.

I was on his side until he called you names. Your behaviour would have irritated me. I'd have been torn between chatting a bit because it's a nice thing to do and thinking "seriously, I know I should have done this earlier, but I'm up against a deadline" and wanting you to leave me alone.

I think it's also telling that having been told by many that your behaviour could be irritating, you want to go along with the handful saying it isn't. There are alternative interpretations and evidently some people would have found what you did annoying. He was wrong to call you names but I think the problem is on both sides.

I think what happened is that he heard that yes you had had problems putting the baby to bed (as he had heard crying and as per previous night), but then instead of listening to your solution he went on suggesting different solutions. I can empathise, it's VERY frustrating and I think it stems from lots of self-confidence (he thinks he knows best, although you have been the one putting baby to bed every night) and he didn't understand/listened properly to what you said. In his mind he was trying to be helpful by offering suggestions but you took it as criticism bc you had already found an answer (and his suggestions were not helpful to you). I think the only solution to that problem is going over the discussion again and making him understand that he misunderstood you, he acted in a moronic way. Then he labelled you moron and psycho bc he doesn't understand why you were upset. Perhaps write down the conversation so he can understand the important points he missed? I wouldn't let it go as obviously he is forming an opinion about you from those moments. You are not a moron, you are precise and accurate in your conversations and gets frustrated bc he is not (you can work on your frustration and he can work on his listening). As an aside, I love gro anywhere blinds, they make a big difference to our LOs sleep, particularly on clear summer nights.

He was certainly wrong with the name calling. Not on at all and he should apologise.

You both have different ideas about how best to settle the baby at night, and neither are right or wrong. All are worth a try. You just have to keep trying until you find a method that works. Get your black-out curtains and put them up without involving your DH. If he sees you doing it and asks why you didn't ask for his help then just say tell him that he hardly seemed receptive when you first came up with the idea so you assumed you were on your own with it. Don't engage further.

I kind of know where you are coming from with regard to wanting to sort things out the next day rather than just leaving it unresolved. My DH does not have tact or diplomacy as a middle name and that can cause tensions. When an argument does break out he has a tendency to think that sleeping on things means that everything is hunky dory in the morning and need never be discussed again. I am the opposite. I certainly do just make my points and leave him to stew for the rest of the evening, but I am one of those people for whom things fester overnight rather than settle down and I am even more riled come the morning. In our case though, I find that that usually works on my DH.

It can be quite hard to let things go, but sometimes when someone is up against a deadline that is probably the best thing to do - and I am not good at taking my own advice there.

I think you should have left him to his assignments. Not even mentioning th curtains until the next day.
However, he was wrong to call you names and he was wrong to go on and on about your 'failures' to oout your DC to bed in the correct way. Clearly, if he was under stress and very busy, he had no need to get involved in that discussion int first place!

Discussing things the day after.
I think it's appropriate to let your partner know that when they did xx, you found it upsetting. (Eg in this case, when you called me names, I really found it upsetting and annoying. I would appreciate that you don;t do that anymore).
I also think that the discussion about the curtain is one that is needed again. Surely, finding a way to it your DC to bed is something you should discuss. I wouldn't have mixed the issue of the curtain with the fcat yu didn't like the way he talked to you. Two different issues iyswim.

What I'm unconfortable about is the fact that he seems to have spent quite a bit of time telling you you are doing it all wrong, that his way is right and you shouold do as he says (eg go to bed later/pray idea).
Is that a common thing in your relationship?

I'm surprised so many think you are in the wrong OP. He was totally out of order. If he wanted to be left alone to work he should have told you, not ask you how bedtime went and then continue with a character assignation of you of everything you do wrong. I don't think you can be described as hard work just for wanting to discuss how things went so wrong the night before. Surely that's a mature approach to it. He also seems to be harbouring some resentment and bitterness towards you and this is how he's chosen to let it out.

OP seems to me that you need DH or some one close to you to give you a big hug and to tell you that you are doing a great job at being a mum AND that you and your ideas are important. When you are tired the smallest thing which may help the day go smoother are like a light bulb moments. They won't set the world on fire or be interesting to the wider population but are none the less valid to you. Don't doubt yourself, write down what happened if there's a next time, so you can mull the row and behaviour over when you feel calmer to see if you could have handled it differently.
I agree with broaching the subject again as you both have to find a way to disagree, discuss, debate and communicate effectively and with respect on both sides.

My advice is to not let him dictate the way everything has to be discussed/dealt with

^^ This is what he is doing OP. He is making sure everything is on his terms. He wants to shut down debate, but if he can't do that he will only discuss when, if and how he wants to. Your thoughts, experiences and wishes are being treated with contempt.

There's seems to be quite a lot of 'you asked for it' on here. I don't think you did at all. I think your communication skills are very sound and I don't think you have a problem. I think he has very bad communication skills - if it is that - and I bet he is not sitting down worrying about how he can make them or your relationship better. He is shouting you down and shutting you up. He is critical, undermining and this is a way of controlling you.

I agree with SilverDragonfly that this is not acceptable. You are the mum, you are in charge of almost every bedtime. You are also, very reasonably trying to involve him in decision-making , which he seems to be stamping on. Well, he's stamping on you, verbally.

He is not showing you respect. He doesn't want you disagreeing with him, but instead of trying to reach a consensus (as you are doing), he is trying to get you to shut the fuck up. Verbal abuse is a very effective way of shutting someone up. You back down, you start tiptoeing round him, you try to work out what you are doing or saying wrong. Because it's got to be your fault hasn't it?

Your baby is only 5 months old and he is calling you names? That's called 'being a shit' and there is no absolutely no excuse for that. Don't go tiptoeing round him making him cups of tea. Don't accept that he says you're stirring or being argumenative.

He doesn't want to go back over it - Of course he doesn't want to go back over it OP - he would much prefer it if you shut up and implicitly agreed that you will 'agree' with everything in future.

My emotionally abusive XH started gearing up to being controlling, angry and critical as soon as our first DC was born. We were also older parents. I had had a successful career but became an SAHM. We had agreed this, but it seemed, in retrospect, to have awakened his inner misogynist - the one I never knew existed! He started being grumpy. He criticised virtually every decision I made about this much-wanted baby. He went to work everyday but came home to pick holes in my 'work'. I would establish routines and naps, and at the weekend he would blow a hole in them and get angry if I protested about it. He explicitly and implicitly criticised my parenting. But he refused to read any childcare books or 'get on my page' with coping with any development stage. He then complained that I 'always disagreed with him'. I'm not stupid. I'm very articulate. I know it takes two to make a disagreement, but he did not accept that - ridiculously, it was always me disagreeing with him. Which of course made him angry, thus really putting me off even making minor protests about stupid stuff. He once became scarily enraged when I suggested he fried some sausages instead of making a huge performance of grilling them. You won't believe how much I was not allowed to make that suggestion. He did the huge rage, threatened to leave, character assassination etc etc. I was terrified and begged him to stop, telling him I loved him etc. Er, what do you do with that? Of course I questioned whether I was communicating properly with him - because we obviously had a communication problem, didn't we? I don't think for a minute that he ever examined his conscience what he was doing wrong. No, as far as he was concerned I just kept stepping out of line.

Trouble was we didn't have a communication problem. 'We' had an abuse problem. I communicated perfectly well, but he had decided I was worth less and him and treated me accordingly - a bit like an underperforming employee. It took me a while - and another baby - before I realised that he had no respect for me, let alone love.

BIG CAVEAT: This may not be happening to you! But just in case, do your best to nip his appalling behaviour in the bud and tell him in no uncertain terms that you won't be treated like that. Being called moron or psycho - after endless criticism - is not acceptable whatever the circumstances.

Apologies for being long-winded. Good luck

I suspect things have moved on now but this is the exact kind of conversation my dp and I used to have... and still do sometimes. But the frequency dropped massively after we both read "men are from Mars, women are from Venus".

I don't think either of us finished the whole book. But the first half or so struck such a chord with both of us.

One of the major issues we had was that dp was telling me something, not expecting solutions. I gave solutions which were rejected. Dp annoyed to receive solutions, saw that as criticism. I saw reaction as rejection of my great suggestions. Cue bottom lips out on both sides followed by subsequent bickering.

If dp had then brought it back up again to tell me how I'd been horrid, it would mean my own feelings were being denied. I'd be even more pissed off.

gummy I hope you don't spend too much time thinking about whether the negative posts are right. Different points of view are always useful, but the name calling and verbal aggression when you tried to sort things out (as every book, therapist and friend would recommend as the mature and sensible way to deal with it!) immediately brings this out of the 'six of one' league and into a genuine problem. His apparent inability to take any blame or responsibility for his own choices, both in having a conversation with you while he was meant to be working (incidentally this will absolutely have been a distraction mechanism for avoiding the work) and in leaving the work to the last minute, is a genuine problem. You're not in the wrong here.

Hillfarmer What a lovely, brave and compassionate reply. Please read and consider it carefully gummy, not with the intention of immediately deciding he is like Hill's ex but as a guide to what to look out for, patterns, and most importantly as reassurance about your own feelings and behaviour!