Prenup Woes

[user1467226227]

New member, first post. Please play nice.

I am getting married abroad later this summer. My other half works in the City on £150k+ and I am a mid-band civil servant on £50k (sorry to talk money, but it's obviously relevant).

Our assets are (at present) roughly the same and we both expect to inherit reasonably well.

A few weeks ago O/H decided to make serious noises about a prenup to cover absolutely every single aspect of our financial lives. I.e. aside from anything we own in joint names our finances will be kept totally separate and neither party will make a claim against the other in the event of divorce.

I know that 40% of marriages end in divorce and my head is not opposed to the idea of a prenup. That said, I am having some problems getting my heart round it.

The whole thing just seems so completely unromantic. Further, it suggests that my O/H potentially doesn't see the marriage as 'going the distance' and is already looking for an escape route.

Further it presents practical problems - my O/H is seriously considering moving overseas in 2-5 years (particularly following the Brexit vote) and, obviously, the plan would be for me to go too. We have also discussed the possibility of kids, which would probably mean me giving up work for a while for the purposes of full-time childcare.

In light of the pre-nuptual agreement being asked for I now feel:

a) less than enthusiastic about our pending marriage.
b) in no way inclined to give up my job to follow my O/H abroad.
c) in no way inclined to give up my job if we have kids.

I have tried to raise this with my O/H. They don't see any real issues and have simply told me not to give up my job or follow them abroad unless I am totally comfortable with it.

To me, this is not the solution. I want to follow them and make decisions which are best for our marriage. I am however acutely aware that if I would probably be 'high and dry' financially if I give up work with this pre-nup in place and we split.

I am massively annoyed at all of this as we are not too far from getting married and it has been 'hot dropped' on me. I appreciate that pre-nups are not legally binding, but have been advised it would probably be upheld unless it was totally unreasonable.

I am not looking for legal advice. More emotional support. I thought marriage was about union / wedded bliss etc... Instead I feel like I am in the middle of signing a business deal that is being presented as a 'fait accompli'.

Has anyone been in a similar situation or got any thoughts about how I might deal with this? The rest of our relationship is good, but it is driving a real wedge inbetween us (on my part anyway).

Rorty, I know lots of Civil Servants who have taken career breaks to accompany their partner on foreign postings, it does not mean the end of your career.

I'd say the relevance of whether you are the man or the woman, would be about planned future children. If you are the man in your mid 30's, you have more time on your side to put this relationship to bed and find another more equal, with less unstable far-away living plans, relationship.
If you are the woman, then you may be anxious about time being against you if you have to start again.
Have you discussed your future family plans in detail? You seem a bit 'what if' about that as though you have no clear plans regarding when and how many. Have you discussed who would be the main carer and how the childcare would be split if you did separate? The terms of separation entirely depend on who has to provide most for any children. Also of concern would be that to maintain a close relationship with any children, if you did split, you would be stuck in foreign lands whether you liked it or not as you need permission of the other parent to take them back to your home country, which you would be unlikely to get.
In short, it all seems a bit my way or the high way, and we will land it on you at a late stage purely so that you will be less likely to back out - too calculating. I'd run a mile if it were me and start again.

Wouldn't even marry them because of

'They want it because they want to be financially independent and not behold to the possibility of getting smashed for a lump sum or maintanenence in the event of divorce.'

And everything death stare said

Very manipulative timing and they don't sound ready for marriage - a cancelled wedding is cheaper than a divorce (even with a prenup!)

My ex husband earned between 10 and 15 thousand during the boom in Ireland.

No pre nup.

You will be fucked if you agreed to one.

Whether you get a pre nup or not, you now know his mentality. I would be worried that he would not support you if you had children and became a sahm or you got sick and couldn't work.

What DeathStare and Bacon said.
Take it or leave it? Leave it. This is spectacular black and white thinking-his/her way or the highway. If you agree to this then imho you will effectively be capitulating any power, leverage, or hope of ever being an equal partner in this "union" for any say in any major decision that might arise. Oh, one has already arisen: he/she is moving abroad-you can come or stay as you like. That is one big fuck you, and as a pp said, does suggest a hidden wish for the relationship to be ended-by you.

Skip the divorce, don't marry in the first place. It sounds like a consent form to be the good enough for now mate. This is not a time to be spineless. Find your backbone and use it to fight your corner as if the rest of your life depends on it.

I get the financial reasons (prior assets especially) but to me, prenups have always seemed like telling God the marriage covenant was ill thought out along the lines of, "Oh God, You forgot about the money!" Doomed from the start.

Really don't agree to this. Personally the lack of investment in the relationship would be a killer for me, not just the prenup, but the casting you as the supplicant.

A pre-nup for assets you each owned before the marriage is not a problem and is sensible. Once you are married and especially once you have children the game does change. In particular, if you are the main carer for the children and especially if you give up work, you become very vulnerable. I don't think you can really appreciate just how vulnerable you are until you have had children.

Or a more extreme scenario -what happens if you have health problems or if you have an SN child? I have an SN child and frankly it blew my life and my high flying career into smithereens. I did not anticipate any of that.

My high earning exH has never had any time for that child and has done everything he could to get out of paying a decent settlement - hiding assets etc. Thankfully, I at least had access to the courts and got a decent financial settlement. He still tries to duck out of it occasionally, arguing that I should be earning what I was previously (in which parallel lifetime that would occur I have no idea) but that is another matter.

The point is that I had recourse to the courts who were able to look at my needs and those of my DC in all the circumstances. You would be completely without anything except your prenup (I agree it would be likely to be upheld).

Hang on - so you're wedding is in two months, fully booked, and they won't marry you if you don't sign this?

Don't do it. They couldn't be giving you a bigger sign. Balls in their court, then - marry you and become equals, as was intended, or don't marry because they can't imagine you as an equal and don't want to give you that status.

It won't feel like it now, but they may be helping you not to make a huge mistake.

I can understand a pre nup if you have children already and can't risk their financial security on a relationship which may not work out or even to safeguard existing assets but I agree with all other posters that your OH doesn't trust you and isn't seeing their future as being with you.

Someone who says 'take it or leave it' or who is happy to move abroad without you doesn't love you. This pre nup shows no care for what happens to you at all.

I would also be worried about what happens to the dc if your 'partner' (and I use that word loosely) decided to move abroad. Who gets final say?

Honestly, I wouldn't marry this person but if you do go ahead I seriously urge you to draw up your own prenup with a lawyer that absolutely plans for and covers all eventualities, including yours and their health and the wellbeing of any future dc (inc if they have disabilities which will impact on care needs and abilities to work). Tell you oh to 'take it or leave it'!

Although in truth, if you have to be in this position it doesn't say anything positive about your relationhip - you are not a team and each of you is out for yourself which begs the question of what is the point?

I would have no problem with a prenup. As long as it meant that each party got out what they took in and there were solid and fair clauses when it came to property and children.

HOWEVER. I have a massive problem with the issue that the moving abroad is settled
on and you can either go or not go 'your choice'. She doesn't view this as a partnership. Don't marry her.

Don't do it. If that means not marrying this person then that is the right thing to do.

we got married 3 years ago as I was pregnant. Similar income differential. We have a pre nup which I am happy with. We both got independent legal advice, the process wasn't that cheap. Pre marital assets are the individuals but everything from date of marriage is 50/50. I have now given up work to support DH career and agreed to go overseas but only because I know I am protected. He has had pay rises as a result and I as an individual am better off (at least in short term ignoring career damage).

Also, the previous nuptials need revisiting every 5 years (with legal costs associated with it). As our marriage continues, my DH knows that the split will move towards 50/50 of all assets.

Sounds so unromantic! but for us marriage was always a contract to provide a stable enviroment to have children. Yes we love each other loads but we could do that without marriage. But I offered, he gingerly reminded me of the offer as we were getting closer and I was very happy to do it. No arguments and an understanding that it was to improve our relationship. Very different to your situation. You will have to tell your solicitor that you are completely happy even though they consider it against your best interests - could you really do that?

So if divorce happens she doesn't want to pay maintenance for the children you've had.

Nice.

I'd be calling off the relationship.

If it were me, I'd call it off.

I like the idea of pre-nups personally, although I say that as someone in a blended family who sees them as a way of recording your original intentions of how assets should be split to protect existing children, etc. I don't see them as a tacit way of saying you don't expect the relationship to last, I see them as pragmatic.

However, my problem with your fiancé is their expectation that having children doesn't change anything. It is morally reprehensible that the parent who sacrifices most for the good of the children while allowing the other parent's career to flourish as a direct result is the one left high and dry. I would not contemplate marriage to anyone who can't see that. Such a person knows the cost of everything and the value of nothing and clearly doesn't value all the essential ingredients of a successful, happy, loving and mutually respectful relationship.

Your OH is showing you where they think you stand in this relationship.

Follow them abroad giving up your earning potential for x years, pension etc - take it or leave it.

Have kids giving up your earning potential for x years, pension etc but don't expect anything from them for it. - take it or leave it.

They are telling you that you are unimportant compared to them. You don't matter. Fit around their plans and life or don't bother coming along.

There is no negotiation, no compromise. Just take it or leave it.

Leave it.

Walk away now.

Cancel the wedding and get out. You may lose money over the wedding but that is nothing compared to what may happen in this wedding.

See I think the 'throwing in your lot' with your intended is part of the romance so I am with you on that OP. I had a lot more to lose than my now DH when we got married and I considered a prenup briefly but rejected it because of the message it would have sent him. He was broke when I met him but whilst I am relatively asset rich while he had nothing, he has pensions that I do not, so it evens out for us I guess. Your situation is not like this and in your shoes, I would not marry your intended under these circumstances. It's not what marriage is about IMHO. It's about giving it a punt, hoping for the best and working at it. The pair of you against the world. I think a prenup puts it in a different arena from the get-go and not in a good way. If DH had wanted me to sign one, I would have seen him in a different light I can tell you!

they want to be financially independent and not behold to the possibility of getting smashed for a lump sum or maintanenence in the event of divorce.

Erm. Splutter. Erm - of COURSE partners take a financial hit in the event of divorce!

Cake and eat it come to mind.

Could be pre-wedding jitters. Or could be they are already married, indeed fully committed to, their £150pa.

Absolutely I would pull out now if they insist on this contract that only a monkey would sign.

No prob with a pre nup. If I married again I would have one to protect my house which is what I got from my divorce. But that is all. How can your partner say follow him abroad of you want? Married people don't tend to live on different continents. Sorry but I think a serious re think is needed. I'm guessing he has heard horror stories from other men and now has gone overboard.

I'm actually appalled by this. Please, please, please don't sign it. Enormous red flags here. You are coming into the marriage with equal assets, so the only thing he is protecting is his "share" of anything built up while you are married, raising a family and supposed to be a team. His whole approach from start to finish and what he is asking is a huge red flag. He doesn't this as a partnership. NOT a good sign in any respect - he really thinks if you take a financial hit after having children, or if you are ill, or need to be a caretake to a family member, that's fair? Please OP, I know it's incredibly painful, but walk away now. I actually detest him. (And, by the way, if he works in the city, he's not making THAT much money, and has a laughably high opinion of himself.) What a wanker.

WellErrr that man loves you.
OP this would be a deal breaker for me too, sorry for your situation.

Call the whole thing off.

Their priorities are clearly their career and money and they intend to move abroad with or without you and make sure if you do have DC and then break up you get the bare minimum. Grim.

Please don't marry her. She's taking the piss out of you.

Walk away and don't sign a thing.

Do either of you have DC from previous relationships? If so then I could understand wanting to protect assets for them and set everything in stone.

You should both get independent legal advice when creating a pre-nup... I would see a solicitor and insist that the pre-nup essentially mirrors your legal rights in the event of a separation.

I f'kin hate singular they. I wish people wouldn't try to skew the results or whatever it is by using it.
Op, your partner isn't being fair. The fact that you will take a financial hit to support his/her career and raise your children means you need to split all income and assets (of the marriage) 50/50 as a starting point.

Even if your fiance is Prince Harry, I'd back out.