Prenup Woes

[user1467226227]

New member, first post. Please play nice.

I am getting married abroad later this summer. My other half works in the City on £150k+ and I am a mid-band civil servant on £50k (sorry to talk money, but it's obviously relevant).

Our assets are (at present) roughly the same and we both expect to inherit reasonably well.

A few weeks ago O/H decided to make serious noises about a prenup to cover absolutely every single aspect of our financial lives. I.e. aside from anything we own in joint names our finances will be kept totally separate and neither party will make a claim against the other in the event of divorce.

I know that 40% of marriages end in divorce and my head is not opposed to the idea of a prenup. That said, I am having some problems getting my heart round it.

The whole thing just seems so completely unromantic. Further, it suggests that my O/H potentially doesn't see the marriage as 'going the distance' and is already looking for an escape route.

Further it presents practical problems - my O/H is seriously considering moving overseas in 2-5 years (particularly following the Brexit vote) and, obviously, the plan would be for me to go too. We have also discussed the possibility of kids, which would probably mean me giving up work for a while for the purposes of full-time childcare.

In light of the pre-nuptual agreement being asked for I now feel:

a) less than enthusiastic about our pending marriage.
b) in no way inclined to give up my job to follow my O/H abroad.
c) in no way inclined to give up my job if we have kids.

I have tried to raise this with my O/H. They don't see any real issues and have simply told me not to give up my job or follow them abroad unless I am totally comfortable with it.

To me, this is not the solution. I want to follow them and make decisions which are best for our marriage. I am however acutely aware that if I would probably be 'high and dry' financially if I give up work with this pre-nup in place and we split.

I am massively annoyed at all of this as we are not too far from getting married and it has been 'hot dropped' on me. I appreciate that pre-nups are not legally binding, but have been advised it would probably be upheld unless it was totally unreasonable.

I am not looking for legal advice. More emotional support. I thought marriage was about union / wedded bliss etc... Instead I feel like I am in the middle of signing a business deal that is being presented as a 'fait accompli'.

Has anyone been in a similar situation or got any thoughts about how I might deal with this? The rest of our relationship is good, but it is driving a real wedge inbetween us (on my part anyway).

I don't think gender matters here

Cultural differences can be an issue.

Have you wondered why your OH has mentioned this at this stage and not earlier? Is it to force you into marriage?

I honestly think if it was a take it or leave it offer I'd leave it and walk away.

I think I would write my own pre-nup that feels fair to you - spelling out what happens to existing and future assets, but also what happens in the event of children, of time off work for family, etc. etc.

Then give it to them and ask them to justify any deviation from it.

I generally agree with pre nups (don't have one, as we had no assets when we married!) as I feel it is good to be clear on where you both stand on money before you start. However, it sounds like the manner in which it is being presented is antagonistic and alienating.

A good pre nupt should be like a good will, done together and thinking through all eventualities. As such, it could be a fairly reassuring process for both parties.

I am generally very pro pre-nup when there are existing assets to protect, but I agree with you OP, this is something else.

Marriage is, ultimately, about trust. Without it the partnership simply won't last. Your OHshouldnt be blamed for wanting to protect what they've acquired before you came on the scene, but they should be prepared to throw in their lot with you from the point of marriage onwards. I can see why you feel the way you do.

And, truly, the clincher is that this is being thrown at you two months before the wedding. That is not the way to treat a future spouse. A post-nup is perfectly feasible. The timing of this is highly suspect at worst, highly inconsiderate at best...and where does that leave you, really?

Good luck with this. It'd be a tough decision to call things off, but in your shoes I would rather that than go through with things on this footing (being married myself I Can imagine the sorts of things at stake two months before the wedding).

We did talk about it. And agreed pre-existing assets and inheritance to be kept separate. We never reached any agreement on earnings whilst married and this now seems to have been presented as part of the deal.

personally I feel that if you need a prenup then there is something seriously wrong.

Why does he feel this way?

I have no idea. Just a desire to be independent I guess and not threatened by the possibility of a financial hit in the event of divorce.

Honestly? I wouldn't marry them. For three reasons:

1. I think the fact that they have thrown this on you at the last minute when the wedding is all booked and paid for is deeply manipulative. If this really was a major issue to them then they should have raised it when you first discussed the possibility of getting married, not when you felt backed into a corner.

1. Your OH is only wanting to protect their own assets here and doesn't care at all about protecting you. They have made it clear that they do not trust you and want themselves protected but are resentful of the idea that you then might not trust them and you need to be protected to. This is not a marriage. This is a dictatorship.

1. When presented with your concerns their response was that you shouldn't follow them abroad then. This is not working things out as a team. This is using emotional blackmail to force you into doing things their way.

I'm sorry to be so blunt right before your wedding, and I'm not against pre-nups per-se, but the way this has been handled shows that this person does not give a shit about you. Please do not sign this and please do not get married. You deserve better.

A couple of questions to ask yourself and OH

So why is this being dumped in your lap so near to the wedding and your OH comes from a culture where assets are kept separate ? If it is a regular thing where your OH comes from why didn't he instigate the negotiations as soon as you started to plan your wedding ?

How can he expect you to move abroad / have children without sharing income ? Who would pay for the care and up-keep of any children ?
Would he consider paying you a sum to be a SATM ?
I think this all sounds a bit dodgy - sorry.
I don't respond well to ultimatums I have to admit, so I would be seriously considering whether or not to go to go forward with the marriage.

It would be enough for me to not get married if I'm honest. If you have no trust in a relationship it will fail anyway.
He's probably only left it so late so he thinks you wouldn't cancel!
You'll always have resentment over this situation from now on, understandably so. I'd postpone at least, yes you'll lose some money but it seems he has loads anyway

Thanks death.

We have a long weekend coming up together. I will try and raise the issues and see what I can do. If my previous experience is anything to go by it will just end in a row.

Interestingly, we are getting ever closer to the wedding and my understanding is these things need to be signed at least 28 days before in order to be considered legally 'safe'. There is a chance we might not get this sorted in time, and it will be interesting to see how things end up if we go 'inside' this time limit.

You might want to see a family solicitor. My understanding (and it might not be correct) is that pre nups in England are of limited value in light of changed circumstances such as children coming along.

Sorry I have assumed you were the female in the relationship - my points still stand irrespective of pronouns

This would be a total dealbreaker for me.

And here is why:
'They want it because they want to be financially independent and not behold to the possibility of getting smashed for a lump sum or maintanenence in the event of divorce.'

And the take it or leave it.

Would not want to marry someone with that attitude towards something so important and would consider it a lucky escape. I'd call off the wedding. It's basically saying, 'I get to behave however I please and you put up with it.'

The "they" thing is tiresome and makes it harder to read - although obviously not impossible. Gender isn't irrelevant.

I suggest all further discussion is done with a mediator as you just end up in rows.

There's nothing wrong with a prenup - very sensible. It's not romantic because it's not supposed to be romantic. Save romance for Valentine's Day. This is sensibly making important decisions. No point in getting emotional about. Lots of people divorce no matter how they start out. That's like getting emotional about a spouse asking you to get life insurance "oh but I'm unlikely to die and it's unromantic to imagine me dead". Your fiancée is just being sensible.

Step away from the prenup for a minute though - you're going to marry someone with whom you haven't even decided if you both have the same goals about moving abroad? Even if protected by a prenup - do you want to impact your career like this? A prenup might not even compensate you for it. So sort that out first.

Back to the prenup. Fine on pre-existing assets. But I would insist on clauses related to children and moving abroad - e.g. That you'll follow normal divorce process (marrying abroad - check where that means you file for divorce) but exclude previous assets, perhaps.

The main worry here isn't the prenup, but the overtones of what sounds like bullying. Don't marry a bully.

Whatever you do, don't put pressure on yourself because of a silly date. Wedding can be postponed.

If that desire to be independent is so strong, marriage is probably a bad move. I want a partnership but to be independent? sounds a bit like Boris
Marriage is primarily forming a secure unit to produce children in. Pretty dresses and companionship are added perks. Are there existing children involved? Is this a second marriage? These sorts of things are the stuff for prenups

Just refuse to sign it and it will be he who calls off the wedding!!!

Then he will look like a Pratt when telling everyone why

The whole aspect of not being prepared to look at clauses if you move abroad for work or there are children are what would make me call the wedding off

What exactly is the point of getting married if there is not true togetherness????

My partner and I don't have DC but when we purchased our home, my partner put a considerable amount more into it - he earns a fair amount more than I do generally. When it came to writing the contract, we discussed it at length - I was insistent he should have more of a share but he wouldn't have it. In the event we split, which he said was unlikely, I would have put as much into it as he had, maybe not monetary but with decorating and home making (I'm a designer by trade) and so we have 50/50 shares in our home. As it happens I'm currently earning more than him but that makes no odds - he is doing more around the place while I do extra hours. It's supposed to be a partnership and if one of you isn't happy you're supposed to work towards sorting that together.

The fact it's been left so late, and is accompanied by threats to call off the wedding would seriously undermine its valudify should you sign it.

Your intended is a bit of a tit.

I'd rather find someone else to marry with that attitude TBH. Why bother getting married at all if they want to continue remaining so financially seperate with assets acquired during the marriage.

Especially with you giving up your job to move abroad.

This won't end well and it's best to jump ship now.

There is no way I would marry someone who insisted on a pre-nup if I was going to bring children into a marriage. Children change everything - the power balance, earning potential of the main care-giver, even self-esteem. What might seem a fair split now could look deeply unfair after children enter the equation.

Practicalities aside, I went into my marriage 100 per cent sure it was going to be forever. I just wouldn't marry someone who didn't agree with that because it makes the vows pretty meaningless, so why bother in the first place?

Good luck OP.

Presuming you are approx G7 Civil Servant - you will be able to share parental leave and take a career break. Then if you return to work you will receive help with childcare costs. Lots of couples have some time apart due to their joint careers. If you had a child and you didn't become a camp follower who would have the child with them?

We married young with no material assets and to some extent that is an advantage - however, I don't think a pre-nup is always wrong, but you do need to think about your future and take independent legal advice.

To throw another spanner in the works, you say your OH is seriously considering moving abroad in 2-5 years. As a couple, surely that should be a shared decision. What would happen if you decided you didn't want to move abroad for whatever reason? It could mean the end of your career so surely you should at the very least be consulted.

In addition, if you do both move abroad and you have children, you would not be able to bring them back to the UK without your OH's consent.

I would think long and hard before going ahead with the marriage.