Would you still be together if it weren't for the kids?

[Lostandlonely1979]

I've found myself pondering this so much lately. And, for many complicated reasons (most boiling down to a complete lack of compatibility), I'm feeling certain that the answer for me is a categorically firm: no.

I mean, absolutely definitely - I would have ended things by now.

I guess my question is - does that mean my marriage is over? We are so different and I fantasise about a life without him. But how do you know what's fantasy and what's genuine desire?

I also find myself hoping that he won't come home one day. And that makes me feel pretty cruddy about myself. Reading it back, it sounds terrible enough to stop ignoring it.

All these things are stacking up and I'm wondering what to do. We have periods of time where things are pretty okay but the sex is next-to nil (only when I'm drunk, I never want it), there's no passion and we just don't have that much fun together. He's a lovely, sweet guy and deserves to be happy but truth be told, he's just a bit boring and i don't know how much longer our relationship is likely to last. I'm a bit of a fiery one and I need someone I can spark off (although many of our friends would consider him a good leveller to my out-going nature).

Anyway, back to my original question. Really curious to hear if anyone else feels the same. And if realising the answer to the question was 'no', was that the beginning of the end?

Ah, yes, me too for sure. But if I were 35, I could spend 5 years alone and still have more of a future than I would see for myself now! (And with regard to the fun along the way, easier at 35 than 45!)

Although I'm up for flings and casual dating eventually, the idea of a Mr Right being out there for me has no bearing on my decision to leave - not at all. I just desperately want to be single, and mentally and emotionally free (if not actually free until the DC grow up).

We'd definitely still be together. We do have lots of plans for the future and often say "in 10/15 etc years we'll do this" but we also have lots of plans for things to do WITH DC when they are old enough to appreciate those things.

I was wondering though, those of you who say you're dampening your zest for life, isn't that what life is with kids? You don't get to do the things you want to when you have DC as generally it isn't practical, so you just do different things. I'm not sure this would change of you split up, although I suppose you'd get EOW off but aren't you suppose to make sacrifices when you children? Knowing at some point you will get to do the things you want? I suppose what I'm saying is, isn't it just you being bored of having responsibilities, and anything to do with your relationship? I mean that in the nicest way possible!

offside You've definitely got a point! The mundane nature of parenting does grind me down somewhat. I know that if we did split, the freedom of however many nights off a week/fornight would be something I'd warmly welcome!

It's definitely hard to separate the two, but I feel certain that a basic lack of compatibility is at the heart of my particular situation.

zans same - I just want to be able to do what I want with any free time - within reason! And without having to feel I have to get a pass in order to do it. In an ideal world, we'd do these things together but he's just not interested. Yet doesn't want me to do them.

Edith For sure, the idea of dating scares the bejesus out of me, especially after two kids and very little concern for exercise and diet over the past few years...

OP how old are your children?

I do have a vivid memory of telling a friend at a dinner party, with H there listening, that we wouldn't be together if we didn't have children. He didn't object or disagree. And in the early days (twins under 1), I said we were heading for a divorce.

I think with time it got better (children are about to go to high school so have more independence, we're not in the midst of broken nights / bathtime / planning everything well in advance) - taking time out of the house for each of us independently, making an effort to do things together, extending our joint social life (as well as individual ones) and finding what it was that attracted us to one another in the first place. Do you think that has gone forever OP? Are there any times that you feel the attraction you felt for him initially? Can you recreate those situations?

No I don't think we would. We had a hugely horrible terrible rough patch from about 2008 to 2010 and i don't think either of us would have been as forgiving or fought as hard or worked as hard if it weren't for the kids.

And thank god we did. My marriage is awesome now, way better than before. We are a real team and best friends and all that sort of rot.

*worked as hard at saving things I mean

Hearts, how did you get through those years? What caused the change?

We're going through a tough stage and have been for 6 months.We previously had issues 2 years ago, not sure we achieved understanding just agreed a truce.We seem to pull apart due to really poor communication in stressful times.Have had lots of counselling which hasn't really helped.What keeps us together is pain to dc.

Wellllllllll....... without giving too much away........... we separated, both had counselling separately and then together, I went back to work and had sorted myself out which meant he could trust me again.

oh hell, here goes. I had some pretty major mental health problems and was ultimately sectioned and diagnosed as bipolar in 2008. After I got out of the hospital DH kicked me out of the house and told me he "couldn't be my carer any more". Fair enough, in my manic episodes leading up to this time I had behaved atrociously, and in my depressions must have been hell to live with. (textbook anxiety, not getting out of bed, suicidal thoughts etc). The thing that made me fight was seeing all these women on the psychiatric ward who only had something like 2 hours of supervised contact with their kids every fortnight. I vowed that would not be me. Fortunately my mental illness has been controllable since then with diet, meds, counselling, supportive friends and family.

How did we get through it. Hmmm. I guess DH and I were incredibly, painfully honest with each other. We had some terrible counselling sessions where it almost physically hurt. But I knew I could not move back into the family home unless we were 100% sure that it was for good - Mummy coming back and then leaving again would have destroyed the DDs who were 7 and 4 at the time. So there was no "truce" reaching, we really hammered everything out and came to a proper understanding, a healthy and happy place for both of us.

And I would not have put myself or him through that if it weren't for the kids - they were the jackpot, the main prize.

The mental health thing is just a distraction though, we really did have problems in our marriage. My sectioning was just the catalyst or magnifying glass that made us examine it all.

I knew we had loved each other once (we have known each other a long time) and I thought we ought to be able to find that again. What I hadn't really realised was that we had never fully respected each other as individuals. I now see him as John (not his real name), not as Husband or Provider or Carer or Father. And all the lovely and nice and irritating and maddening things that go along with him being John.

I hope that makes sense. I've never really typed it all out before.

hearts Blimey you both had a real tough time. It's lovely to hear you are ok now

hearts wow immense respect for you and relief that you've pulled everything back. That's a pretty incredible story which puts a lot into perspective.

namechange they're four and six atm and they're getting easier, but we're still not out of the woods. Sometimes I do look at him and try to think about how it was, but then I got preggers pretty quickly and he already had a DD so parenting has always been there for us. Very tricky to see past it all now but you're right that things may well improve as the children get less dependent on us.

Having said that, I've just come home after popping out for a couple of hours to mess everywhere, no homework reading recorded and rain-soaked washing left out on the line, so I do wonder how I'll get through it without any proper help from him. Seems he's slipped into old ways again already. Le sigh.

Lost one of the things that came out of our counselling etc is that we are now proper grown up partners-in-crime and I am no longer the be all and end all for all things domestic (which I was when I was well... which I think contributed to my MH problems because I hated it so much!) We negotiate who is in charge of what and now a few years later we both feel like everything is fair and manageable. Thank God.

NB stop calling it "help" from him. Implies it is your job and he only has to "help".

Have you read the book Wifework?

To continue my analogy up there, to me it seems as though your DH is seeing you as Mother / Cleaner / Domestic Drudge / Housewife - as opposed to seeing YOU.

Every time he leaves something for you to do, like the reading records, you know what he is really saying? He's saying, "Fuck you, Lost, you do it. It's your job."

I couldn't live with that. Like I said I think that attitude from DH when the kids were little contributed to me going round the bend although I wouldn't recommend a stint on a psych ward as the ideal way to save a marriage

hearts that's exactly my argument to him - every time something goes undone (when he's had ample opportunity to do it) it feels like a hug birdie being flipped in my direction.

I'm far from perfect and sure I rub him up the wrong way but ffs I'm running a business, soon all pickups and dropoffs and still trying to keep the house in order. When he does do stuff, it's like he deliberately gets it wrong. I've always had the niggling feeling he gets some kind of weird pleasure out of upsetting me, but that could just be me being hypersensitive.

There's always a bit of figuring out what's what when you cohabit, but it's been seven years now. Should be a bit more harmonious, especially when I'm so vocal about what I need/expect from him.

Sounds like I need to pick up a copy of wifework...

hearts well done, that is amazing.

I realised I was at risk of trying to hijack this thread so I've started my own one!

Op, you're situation is very different from mine, and more fixable I think, but only if your DH is willing - if he is, couples therapy / counselling could really help. Having tried several I would say it's really important to get the right person - ask around, and try them out, and don't be afraid to say no and try again if they don't seem right.

Thanks Edith, I really hope you can find a resolution that makes you happy. Was more than happy for you to climb on this thread! Our situations may differ but it's good to know that, overall, I'm not the only one to feel like this.

OP, I think part of the reason we struggled when the children were little was that everything had to be done my way. The reading had to be done at a certain time slot, he couldn't do maths homework with them because he didn't do it the "right" way, I did all of the finances because I was more organised / found better deals etc. With hindsight, I was a control freak still am and he couldn't win. Your post above where you say he does things wrong deliberately - I kind of recognise that because thats what I thought. In fact, my H was trying his best but was actually quite resigned to the fact that it would never be right however he did it, so sometimes, it wasn't worth the hassle. Could there be an element of that?

He has definitely started pulling his weight - it was hard to kind of let go of control for everything but its been a gradual process - and that has strengthened us as a couple. I feel less taken for granted.

onetwo so sorry to hear that, you must've been through hell. Massive respect for you keeping everything together and providing a happy home for your DCs.

Namechange that does sound familiar! I have kind of created a routine for us which he struggles to stick to.

But then - I find my jeans and t-shirts put away in my daughter's underwear drawer?! And the washing 50% hung out with the rest in a crumpled heap at the bottom of the basket! And a thousand other things I could list but I'm so tired of being the kind of person who lists. I would so love to have the run of the house so that the daily disappointments and feeling of being let down would be distant memories.

There are three pretty important things he needs to take care of this week (holiday at work and some finances stuff) and I almost typed a message to remind him, but I'll leave him to his own devices and see what happens. I just dread a resigned 'no' when I ask if it's been done, but I'm really hoping he surprises me.

OMG Lost I'm identifying with you more and more!

I've always had the niggling feeling he gets some kind of weird pleasure out of upsetting me, but that could just be me being hypersensitive.

Mine is like this - after years and years of feeling so confused and hurt by it – because we actually got on well and he could be lovely – I've realised that there is no other explanation. If I open up and say I don't like something or let him know something upsets me, chances are he'll do it more - then if I point this out he'll say he "forgot". He's done things that he absolutely knows are really unbearable for me (even sensitive things to do with touching and sex), then made up excuses about them.

But I'm not sure it's fully conscious. I think he has a lot of deep resentment - I'm not sure about what, but maybe that I was more on top of things and ran the household - because I had to as he wouldn't! – or that I was successful and he'd rather have a little wifey who was less intelligent than him - or it could even be his childhood issues that put us in a weird parent-child dynamic – and that resentment would come out in this passive-aggressive way. Then he would totally deny it and be lovely, resulting in me always trying to brush the crap under the carpet and tell myself it wasn't that bad.

And yes to the incompetence at everything at home - this from a man who runs his own research group, travels the world, and is immensely proud of his work achievements. Oh but ask him to deal with a simple form from school and he turns into a clueless baby.

Oh also you asked about counselling. We did have couples counselling (private not relate, just because it was more convenient) but it was hard because by that point I was already pretty sure it was over, and I felt I couldn't tell the whole truth in counselling for fear of hurting him. (For example that I fantasised about life without him.)

Since the decision to split though we have each been going to separate counsellors - mine is a relationship counsellor but also a general one and has helped me with some other issues too. I've found that much more helpful because I could really say all the things about him that have upset me so much.

I know what others are saying about getting through it and making a relationship work, and only you can know if that's on option, or if you're past that.

I told exP late one night after yet another crappy argument that I couldn't do it any more, it was over - and I knew I meant it. It was a shock and a massive step as we've been together a long time – but the next day I felt like I was floating above the pavement and breathing clean air for the first time in years. Sometimes it isn't right and it is better to end it than just keep on struggling and struggling.

Zans Totally with you. With the 'don't go there' physical things (following trauma), the resentment of having a successful wife, and the complete inability to tick off a simple task yet the capacity to function perfectly well outside of the house.

There was a thread on here a while back by a lady whose husband forgot to post a letter (I think it was that). A small issue? Yes. But for her it was the absolute last straw. She was so sick of this seemingly selective incompetence that she just flipped and lost her shit! And I totally and utterly get where she's coming from.

Thanks for your input on this. You're absolutely right - only I can decide. But it really, really helps having some empathetic input and support from people who've gone through (or are going through) the same thing.

I can relate to the letter story too. And that's partly the problem – you sound petty complaining about any of these things in isolation. Anyone can genuinely forget to do something or cock something up - including me and I'm renowned for being organised. As a one off, these things wouldn't be a big issue. But when you have dealt with them for years, thousands upon thousands of strategic fails and incompetences, passive aggressive resistance, lack of responsibility, your respect for the person totally goes.

Exactly, respect is one of the main things I feel I've lost for OH :(