Broken relationship with son

[Namechanger65]

I'm not sure how or if I can fix this.

Son is 25, he was an extremely difficult teen, young adult. Expelled, arrested, charged with afray. One morning the police knocked on the door at 6am, arrested him. One of the officers said in front of me, "why are you acting like you do, you come from a nice home, your other seems like a good person, you should see some of the houses I go to" I'm just trying to demonstrate we are just normal people.

We tried everything for him, counselling, talking, liasing with the school etc. I was never out of that school. One of the things that he would NEVER do was accept blame. One time I went to the school and eleven teachers had written notes saying how unacceptable his behaviour was and he still argued and argued and argued that he didn't misbehave. He never accepted his behaviour was wrong, he never accepted punishment without world war 3 irrupting, he was such hard work.

There were 100s issues at home with him, he would call the police and tell them he was being beaten and he wasn't. He was screaming one day, stop hitting me, stop hitting me, I was sat outside in the car and he was alone in the house,. My neighbour came out and bless her took me into hers whilst I cried and gave me coffee and a shoulder. He was ALONE in the house.

As things got worse as he got older, he would push his father, me and out other son, things were turning really nasty, he was now a man, he had to leave. Things improved with some distance between us, he would come round once a week, it was "bearable". Last year he was involved in a potentially serious accident, we went to the hospital, he was discharged with the proviso that he stayed with someone for 48 hours. He was fine with us in the hospital, the second we were out of the hospital grounds, he was vile, saying he didn't want to stay with us, he hated us, he would rather be dead than stay with us, we were XXXX. I would not drop him home, I was worried and wanted him to stay. He called a cab and went home, nothing we could do. He did actually contact us the next day, I was strong and told him straight then, I would never put up with this type of behaviour again, that I had hoped that his violent and aggressive behaviour against us had stopped. That this was the last time and that would be it.

We do lots for him, he has to his credit got himself a good job and lives in a rented flat. We always try to help him, he had to come home for five weeks whilst between flats we managed to deal with it, he tries not a bit, five weeks not so much as an offer of him making us a cup of tea. I or my husband always included him in meals etc, he offered not a penny.

The latest incident is, he needed some specialist clothes for work at very short notice, didn't have the money until payday. So I paid for were delivered to me, I dropped them to him in the evening. He then didn't need them so we could send them back. He had been to our house, when OH dropped him back, he asked him to put the clothes in the boot so we could return them. He out half the stuff in the boot, typical of him, not his problem, etc

We discovered this about 36 hours later when taking them out to take to the post office that day., I've he put it in Monday evening, we were dealing with it Wednesday morning, OH was off, so it was a convenient day. We needed the stuff back quickly as it was close to cut off time to return. OH called irritated that on his one day off, he had to now drive over to his flat to get the clothes to,return. OH was not nasty, he was irritated and was like "you've only given us half the stuff, now I've got to come over and take time out of my day" , I was in the room, so I know. Well our son went mad, saying we were aggressive, nasty, vile etc. He cannot be told anything ever! He put the phone down, so I text, leave the stuff outside so your dad can collect it, let me know it's done as it is a massive pain anyway and if it's. It there to make it worse' he sent back a string of vile texts, telling me to piss off, That just because we do nice things, we only do it to make up for past misdemeanours, we have not right to speak to him like we do (again dad was irritated not abusive!) we are nasty vile people. He also fully seems to believe that we took 36 hours to manage to think of something we could have a go at him about, that we were looking for an issue!!! None of this is true of course, we were packaging it up then as OH was off the day. He honestly accuses us of the most bizarre things.

I've not contacted home for three weeks now, I worry about him and feel sad.

OH knew I was upset and contacted him on Saturday, again he has it ingrained in him that we are wrong. He is convinced we only do nice things for him so that we can "have a go" at him. It's just so far wrong I can't tell you, he seems totall convinced that we are trying to be nasty to him etc etc.

im not sure what anyone can say, but I'm sad and miss my son. I don't feel I can contact as his shouting and screaming will just lead to another arguemnet. But his anger and nastiness to us is almost like an illness. We are honestly normal parents, this attitude was shown in his schooling as I said previously and also he was a scout member and whiltst wanting to go, caused absolute mayhem and trouble for all the leaders. He was really unpopular and only due to my helping at the group and his younger brother attending that they kept him there.

At other times, he wants to be involved in family life. Previously, he would be very keen to visit us once a week, although I always felt on a knife edge if I'm honest.

Where do I go from here? I am sad.

It genuinely does sound as if he may have a personality disorder and it's not uncommon for some who have the same to cope in some situations and not others.

That's a really tough scenario to live with and I really feel for you

Standing on the outside I do what to mention though...I totally understand posting on a forum you will naturally want to state your position and it can feel defensive but I want to gently point out something

You repeat almost every post " we are good parents", no one even hinted that you weren't and I totally understand you may have felt like you've been accused in real life maybe....but it comes across a little bit as if you are immovable on that which I find unusual

Most parents I know including myself will say "I'm a good parent. I admit I've screwed up and don't always get it right but I try my best"

The only time you've said anything other than a flat I'm a good parent ....is that you care too much and try too hard , honestly in post format it comes across to me as the old joke interview answer to what's your weakness ....." I work to hard " well known as not a true answer

Now it may be totally different in real life and in no way would taking acceptance of mistakes suddenly fix your sons behaviour....he needs to take most of the responsibility

But have you ever said " we were good parents but that doesn't mean we didn't make mistakes and for that I'm sorry but it doesn't excuse your behaviour now....it's unacceptable "?

Unless you truly believe you have made no mistakes (real ones....not the "it's care too much" bit ) in which case that's worrying

My honest heart goes out to you op I have experience of this scenario and whilst I stand by what I have typed I do realise it's horrendously difficult and draining

I know your ds doesn't have attachment disorder, but the control issues are similar so this may help you understand what he's doing and how to deal with it. Also he's 25 but it might still be interesting to you

www.attachmentdisordermaryland.com/parenting.htm

Something might have happened to make him feel unsafe eg. having an operation, being anaetitised, broken bone, undiagnosed sen...he might reach a stage where he wants to investigate it with therapy. But you can only sow the seed of idea that other people have therapy as he will see it as manipulative behaviour. Basically he is having a battle of control with you.

It sounds a bit like he could have ODD (Oppositional defiant disorder) It might be worth researching that to see if it matches up with the way he was as a child and is as an adult:
What are the Symptoms of Oppositional Defiant Disorder (ODD) in
Adults with Oppositional Defiant Disorder (ODD) feel mad at the world, and they lose their temper regularly, sometimes daily. Adults with ODD defend themselves relentlessly when someone says they've done something wrong. They feel misunderstood and disliked, hemmed in and pushed around

Op, regardless what you say here there will be a suspicion that you caused it. That it's All Your Fault.

I'm not surprised you didn't say you weren't perfect parents - that would have been pounced on.

Do read the Columbine book (if you bear it..) and take a look at Joshua Coleman.

As for therapy: forget the nhs. Nothing of worth there accessible to the likes of you and I. Imo it's going to cost £££ but what price your mental health? It may mean no holidays, no extension etc etc (even a smaller house) but it's worth it. This stuff doesn't just go away.

i like what rickety said, but techniques of turning the conversation around sometimes takes practice. i hope you find someone to help you/dh. worth asking because it may not take too many sessions for you to feel more comfortable.

Thank you for all your recommendations, I will follow all the links and read up on the different advice.

As for being good parents l, yes we are. We're not perfect parents, we are not brilliant parents but we are "good" parents. Made mistakes along the way, tried to put right the wrongs. Had many a conversation about not knowing how to deal with some of the situations he raised, like the police, being arrested more than once, the rages, the wrecking our home. Maybe we did say/do the wrong things at times but we had no idea how to cope.

Annielouisa I am looking with interest at your suggestion.

Rickety yours also.

A further update , both myself and DH received a text at around 7 last night, it's content was.....

I would have come over today but you have made it basically impossible for me to. I tried texting mum yesterday and got it instantly thrown back at me

It then went in to say we need to apologise to him, we've never apologised, he's been bullied by us for 25 years. He was not out or order the day we were irritated about the clothes, we were out or order. (Despite him sending me awful texts, piss off, you're a nasty evil person, you are vile blah blah, all because we were "irritated" and told him so!)

So as I suspected my one line text saying how do we sort this out, or we will not apologise for being irritated and would do the same tomorrow if the same situation happened. We can't just ignore everything and smile sweetly because he doesn't like being told he was out or order.

Neither of us responded yesterday, it would've ended in a text argument.

Also normally we would've responded and tried to defend ourselves and say what he did wrong, so a different approach now?

And thoughts on what we do next? Do we respond? He's still adamant that we are again 100% to blame and have been his entire life.

I think you do what ricketytickety suggested and send something along the lines of "we're always here if you want to talk" and leave it at that. Or maybe add a bit first "I'm sorry you feel like that, we're always here if you want to talk". Then leave it there. If he does ever take you up on that, try to get someone there who would mediate.

Text arguments are certainly NOT what you want to be doing. So not responding is probably the best way forward, as others have said, because texting back & forth can't lead anywhere good.

However. Meaning it in the kindest possible way, and being very aware how much you're suffering, I do believe that the phrase 'how do you suggest we do this' is NOT the same as 'how do we sort this out'. To my mind, 'how do you suggest we do this' sounds irritated & also sounds as if you are saying, 'we can't sort this out'.It reads angrily.

As others have said, I would highly recommend that you and DH (but even you on your own) seek some psychotherapy or good quality counselling. I believe this shouldn't just be to 'manage' your DS, but also to explore openly what has happened to your family, which is clearly causing so much pain. Open and in depth exploration is not the same as placing blame, as many people tend to think. Rather, it is about having a space to really think back to what has happened in your family & what your participation has been. There will always be a part we play in our relationshipsinevitablyand it's really worth looking at that as it can make us feel empowered to change the things we can change. Your DS can;'t be changed directly by you, no matter what efforts you make, as he's an adult. However, if he senses over time that you are open to see yourselves as part of the puzzleafter all, he grew up with you, so despite what problems he has, you were always the ones responding to himthat may in time help. Or it may not. But at least you will have more peace of mind looking at your side of things & also having some support for your emotions through all this roller-coaster. It does sound exhausting!

My heart goes out to you. I can't really offer any guaranteed advice, if it were me I would perhaps send him a letter, one he can't argue with because it won't answer back. One where I told him how much I loved him, explained what is unacceptable behaviour over the years and how much, despite this you still love him. I would explain what we considered acceptable normal behaviour moving forwards and how you will continue to love him forever but that at 25 you cannot continue to accept situations such as the clothing incident.

I do think he needs outside help, I am unfortunately not sure he will accept this.

I agree that the text you sent was easily to read as snippy. I would send MakeItRain's response and then leave it. Let him take it from there but have neutral phases ready to use when his behaviour escalates such as I can hear that you're not happy but we can't discuss this until we're all calm and then leave or stop texting.

We decided to text to suggest a meeting, outside of the home. We felt that inside the home it would end it raised voices, something we want to avoid.

OH text...
G would you able to meet me and mum in the Costs one evening this week? I think we need to talk. If you are agreeable with that would you let me know.

Response received

OK I agree but I am not sure what day. I will let you know later today.

I do want this to work but I don't want the nastiness and anger from our son anymore.

Any suggestions what I could do before hand or on the day?

On the day of the meeting try to be "an observer" that means sitting back and not getting into it with him.

If he starts getting nasty stand up and leave saying something like "I will not be spoken to like this anymore" you wouldn't take that kind of behaviour from a friend or neighbour or even a sibling but for some reason we feel guilty for turning our backs on our own children.

Namechanger if I may I'd like to suggest a really good book to you by a man who has changed my life beyond belief, his name is Dr Wayne Dyer who has written many books but I do think it will REALLY help if you read "Pulling Your Own Strings"

You can probably pick up a second hand copy for a few quid on Amazon and there is loads on the internet about his book because it's been around for many years.

Thank you Nivea, I will research!

Ask him what he feels is wrong, and what all of you could do to make it better. Listen to his reply and don't intervene ( that means don't speak and don't use facial expressions to comment either ). When he's finished, say what you need to say. Don't forget you are two to one. Try to find something to like about him while he's talking.

Nivea, while I agree that some boundaries are needed and useful, surely you would agree there is a difference between a friend, neighbour or even sibling and one's own child? If it were my son in this situation, I would never stop trying, I would ask for help myself to sort out what contribution I have in this and I would at the same time hopefully put down some solid boundaries. But surely our DC are different to others in terms of our sense of obligation / responsibility towards them?

Yes stilllovingmysleep but not to the degree of being abused. Nobody has the right to do that to you.

Yes absolutely that's the big about the boundaries needed.

Someone please explain. I would meet up, say something to the effect that my last attempt to help didn't work out as hoped. Apologize and say that next time we will have to be clearer in our communications. Probably at a foodie place and be all wipe the slate clean move on. Not sure I'd even do two on one. I would want to reset the peace. I'm super non confrontational and can't debate my way out of a paper bag. Eventually I would let him know that financial help will be stopped as we prepare for retirement.

I just foresee another battle coming on.

If you care then you must stop his cycle of taking everything out on you. It won't do your son any good, to think that any other human beings are there to be bullied or behave nastily. What if he takes that attitude into other relationships? Or a girlfriend?

If you have failed him, or he thinks you have, find out why, think through it. See a counselor if it helps. This may be partly true or may not be. Whatever, it still doesn't justify this Behaviour. If your son does have mental health issues, support his care, his treatment. But not this nasty hateful cycle.

We care very much, we've been through years of this issue and now we've decided enough is enough. Many times we've had the wipe the slate clean conversation, we do not bring up the past to our son. He however if we do much as dare say one word to him flies into a total rage and nastiness. This is not a new situation it is one spanning at least 10 years. I not even talking about a word in anger, just something he doesn't like. We of course need to stop that cycle!

Given all the advice and reading material recommended I am now seeing some possible issues. If we can broach that we will.

Outtopasture, what makes you think another battle coming on?

Not heard back with a date yet, will let you know if/when we do.

OP I know how you feel - we've had nothing but problems with our DD from broken glasses, threats to kill, fractures etc

One thing that's not been mentioned here is PDA - it's a type of atypical autism, characterised by manipulation and aggression due to extreme anxiety. Often the children only explode at home and are ok outside the home. Also, the "rules" are for others and not for them and they become extremely angry when they perceive that someone else has "transgressed" them.

I have a brother who is very similar and one thing I have learned over the years is that the softly approach doesn't work. It's like it gives him an opening to believe he is right and twist the knife.
I no longer respond to texts. It is not a good communication method for him. He reads tone/implications that are not there and that others do not see.
I find that I have to nearly start every conversation with a reality check. A sharp tone setting boundaries. I will not go over old ground, I will not accept responsibility for things past. I keep things positive, do get drawn in.
There is a huge effort on my behalf to accept this is who he is and so I have to let things go, I have to say no to helping him as it will not go well. I only help if I am willing to accept I will not get something back, not be repaid etc.
My brother needs help from mental health services but he has to look for it. It may never happen. It's a hard pill to accept but I also need to protect my mental health.
I can only suggest you and your OH sit down and come up with a strategy with dealing with him. Be prepared to change the conversation/walk away if things start to become heated short term in order to leave the door open long term.