All dating gurus say don't chase a man, let him chase you. But there's a flaw in that plan

[Chatarunga]

.......nobody has ever approached me. No that's not quite true. Last year, a man 7 years younger than I am asked me out. I'll be told off for being a snob here but he was between jobs (and had been for a while) and he was a granddad at 37. On the plus side, he went every where on his bike so he wasn't completely unfit. So, to be 'open' I went for a coffee with him and he talked absolute shite for an hour. And that is it. In nearly a decade. I have had a few v short flings with people I met on courses or through a friend, but that is it. So if I sat around waiting for somebody to approach me a decade could pass.
Do you ask men out? Are you brave enough? How do you even know if they're single?
I can't wait another decade for another passing unemployed granddad on a bicycle to ask me out! I need to take control of my love life.

If it's no strings potential then a simple coffee or something should break the ice nicely and to gauge more of his and your interest.
Saying that, I'm not that brave.

I meekly asked my current bf out as I'd never done it before.
Says a lot about me but I knew he was/is keen on me on a deeper level than my vagina, he didn't ask, as like from some pp view he has been fucked over in the past and didn't want to leave himself open to that..

Someone's got to do it.

MadeMan, I used to stubbornly believe that, used to put my hands over my ears and refuse to read/watch the advice, but years of being single except for flings that go nowhere, and going through this routine five times... man likes woman, woman fairly sure she likes him back, they go on a few dates, woman makes it clear she is interested, man back tracks. Man changes him mind even though you've been completely consistent in yourself.

When you've been through that five times you start listening to dating gurus........... cos it turns out, they do know what they're talking about. Men are turned off by the transparency they think they want.

What do you mean, Chatarunga about "men are turned off by the transparency they think they want"?

I'm just grateful that, for the time being at least, I am not looking for anything serious from a man. Just some respect and mutual attraction. Which is a lot, on second thoughts.

I mean that like MadeMan, they think that if a woman just comes right out and admits, "yeh, I like you too'' that that is an absence of game-playing, that that is honest, straight forward etc. and for years and years and years i would have agreed with him! but I think now, it was just part of my system of remaining single. Sadly, confusingly, I don't think you can be that straightforward. It seems to repel men. The simple ''yes, I like you back'' switches a switch.

I'm not asking for much either! just a relationship, not marriage! Just see where it goes but respecting me.

I hear you Chatarunga.

If I look back on many of my past relationships they would arise from a situation where the man would put me on a pedestal. This would happen, simply, because I was a teacher (in company training and university when I was in my twenties, thirties) and I would end up dating one of my students who would be a little younger than me. Being a very passionate person the relationship would be all love and fireworks. And then my insecurities would creep in. I guess I'd be afraid the man would stop loving me when he saw my flaws and so I would push them away.

Classic screwed up behaviour.

I hope I am still passionate, about life in general, but I have learned so much about remaining calm recently and more philosophical. Also, in light of what you've just said, I don't like to divulge much info about myself to a man. If he asks I answer but I prefer to preserve my privacy and not overshare.

yes, I overshared too early in the past. Kind of like I had 'disclose' what he'd be getting

My previous point really is about how long would anyone wait around for somebody to make a move; weeks, months, years? If for example it's been a good few months, then why not just ask the person out and save the aggro of prolonging the waiting around wondering if they're interested; looking for tell tale signs, analysing stuff and all the guru jazz.

Sometimes I've seen the dating guru type stuff where they recommend a woman get a new haircut, or a nice woolly jumper to catch the attention of the guy they're after and I think, "Why don't you suggest just asking him out!" Don't rely on a bright red sweater to seal the deal.

Made man, u should watch matthew hussey or amy young!
They are not peddling shit!
Their advice makes a lot of sense and has helped me see what matters.

Eg; amy young "no response is a response'.
Amy young says it how it is there and puts a STOP to any inclination to analyse

"Made man, u should watch matthew hussey or amy young! "

Yeah I might do that; I've not seen their stuff so perhaps they've kept up with the times unlike some of the other dating advice out there.

I hear the wisdom of your words thedogdays and it's good we've been able to express our differences of opinion and hear each other out

Thanks thisis, it was good to have a chat about this yesterday. All the best to you

Thisis, I just wanted to put this here, this is a story from the last time I was involved with anybody before dating my husband. It's not intended as anything other than an illustration of why it pays to be real.

39 year old me, 27 year old him. Whenever I saw him he would be all shy and eyelash fluttery. Gorgeous. On occasion he would be "so shy" he would have to get his friends to speak for him (I thought that was so endearing). Later I read that this is a tactic straight from the Player Bible. Get your player friends to make him seem shy and vulnerable. Anyhow, I never really went out of my way to talk to him, that seemed to be red rag to a bull, I did have some sense left in the part of my reptilian brain. I'm fairly good looking, or I was more so then, before the 2 years of physical and mental breakdown that got triggered by this man. I'm good now, really good. Glad he triggered it for me, I saw it as an opportunity to really see myself, which was hard as I got fired from my job because I was exhausted and got caught sleeping under the stairwell after months and months of insomnia. Good times.

But anyway, back to the story, before I met him I'd done responsibility and long term relationships and I was all out to say yes to opportunities. I got fucked over by so many people with that outlook, today it is more balanced, trust first, yes later.

I was out at a house party and I could see he "liked me" and a couple of gins later I made the first move by going over there, he looked overjoyed (his tactic worked). After we had kissed, and had a really nice chat, on the dance floor he pulled my hair at the nape of my neck so far down my back it hurt. So much for mister shy guy, then he followed me home and when I wouldn't let him in he sulked and then stalked my house for weeks. I hadn't slept with him and he seemed to take offence at that, later on in our small village I heard gossip that basically said (sorry if this offends) that I was "very tight for an old boiler". I see him around a lot, he smirks at me.

So, I'm just saying, the smiles and all-politeness were fake. What someone seems to you does not always represent who they are. He seemed to put me on a pedestal (your words about this guy in your situation), seemed so shy and self effacing, it was a mask for a predator. I made the first move on him though, I walked right into that crap. Never ever again I swore.

It's difficult, especially because, as you get older you can't wait for men to chase you: you have to be proactive and go out and meet them. The thinking behind The Rules's insistence that you have to let men ask you out is that every man has a particular 'type' and if you aren't that type he's never going to be interested, so there's no point chasing him. That's sort of true, but at the age of 48 I asked a guy out, and we are still together 15 years later. I think it's OK to make it plain initially that you are interested, but after that you have to be extremely courageous and completely avoid being needy in any way. I would never have asked him out again, for instance. I waited for him to make the next date, And I never rang or texted first etc etc. But yes, you're right, if you just waited to be approached it might never happen.

littleunderdog, I very much agree - especially for mature women, it's absolutely fine to make the initial step because good attractive (single) men are so thin on the ground that it's completely crazy not give yourself a chance when you see someone you like, especially if that's rare / you are very choosey. But as you say, after that, let him take over with initiative, and if he doesn't then STOP or genuinely accept it as friendship if that's an option - so initial step yes, chasing long-term no because this just sucks you in and you end up with no results yet a low of wasted time and emotion! And yes it takes much more strength and courage not to appear needy or vulnerable if you do that first step - much harder way then if he just asks you out, but as I say, if you really like someone it's worth the try.

*much harden than..

Tinder is the way forward it really is. You like the look of them, they like the look of you, no ambiguity. You chat. You get on or you don't. Its the most level playing field I can think of in the OLD world and worked like a charm for me.

I think it's a bit antiquated expecting a bloke to ask these days. With Tinder etc, there are so many options avaliable, to both sexes, so I think you need to seize the initiative.
On a separate note, lovely story littleunderdog put a smile on my face

I've been listening to this hypnosis thing on you tube! well, for the last two nights anyway. For 8 hours while you sleep it whispers at you ''you are a really interesting person, people enjoy your company" on and on and on for 8 hours. I'm genuinely fascinated as to whether it will make me more flirtatious. If I do attract love in to my life Oprah, I'll come back and tell yall.

Hello Chatarunga, just to let you know I finally found your message and have answered! [smile

"
Eh. It isn't discrimination just because someone doesn't want to go out with someone.hmm"

I think dogdays meant meaning 2.1 here www.oxforddictionaries.com/fr/definition/anglais/discrimination,

not meaning 1 (i.e. similar to discernment)

"Its the most level playing field I can think of in the OLD world"

Tinder's all about the physical though isn't it? Just the photo and then it's often a tool for hookups rather than a relationship. I don't see how people who aren't objectively attractive can find anyone on Tinder in the way they could if they met in real life or even a bit if they had a more detailed OLD profile.

If I fancy a man I tend to make it fairly obvious. I tend to go for quiet men though. There is a difference between chasing someone and making it obvious you are interested and giving them the opportunity to ask you out if they want.
If someone isn't interested then I'm saving time and if someone is going to go off me because I fancy them then it obviously wasn't going to work any way as I want a relationship not teenage game playing.

What is objectively attractive though? Everyone is attracted to their own type whatever that may be. Tinder only allows you to chat to each other if you've expressly chosen each other. So you hit the ground running.

Ways to make it obvious to men you like them and you want them to ask you out:

• touch them lightly on the forearm or on the elbow often when you talk
• flick your hair or play with your hair
• lower your eyes and then look up at him and smile
• say things like ooh you smell lovely
• drop hints like, I'd really love to check out that new bar in town, you know the one on the corner of ...
• I'm thinking about going for a walk in the weekend but I need someone to go with as my usual walking buddy is away

All pretty straightforward flirting really. I thought every one knew this stuff.