DH 'falls out' with Our toddler and generally childish with her. How to approach?

[Tiskettasket67]

Have NC. My DH is mainly wonderful but does have a childish streak. For instance, we can't play board games or quizzes etc because if he loses he gets incredibly sulky and sucks the fun out of anything or if we go somewhere for a social that he doesn't want to be at he will be very rude and ignore people, not engage, make everyone uncomfortable and I'll feel so awkward we leave.
Anyway, with our DD Who is three, he adores her, spoils her rotten and is a really good dad. Except for when he isn't. He will get in a sulk with her and be quite unkind and it breaks my heart to have to stick up for my three year old!
So the other night she woke up, he went to her, she said she didn't wNt him she wanted me so he shouted at her to 'shut up' and stormed off leaving her crying (I was in my way to her by that point) then the following morning she woke up and he went to get her. She said something to the effect of I want mummy not you. To which he said fine I don't want you then, shut her door, passed me in the corridor and said to me 'she's being a twat' (she did not hear that). I went to her and got ready etc but he wouldn't talkto her even when she tried, he ignored her and when she was saying 'daddy's grumpy. Why's daddy grumpy? I can make him happy?' I wanted to die inside because why should she have to worry about how he feels if he is sulking and being unkind. Concerned she's going to end up with some awful esteem issues and think everyone's emotions are her responsibility. Frequently when he sulks at her and she says that I just say, 'don't worry, daddy's fine. Nothing to worry about.' And another time they were playing and he wound her up teasing her and wrongfully, she hit him. But instead of telling her off he pushed her away and said 'I'm not playing anymore if you're going to be horrible'. And then ignored her all afternoon and I had to stick up for her again saying that he shouldn't have wound her up, shouldn't have pushed her away etc etc. when I bring it up with him he then freezes me out too and gets mardy with me and we all have a shit day. Another example is if she misbehaves or something whilst they are playing together he will throw whatever they are playing with across the room and say 'right I'm not playing anymore'. I mean, what a knob, how can I bring this up? I explain she is only three and that this isn't fair on her. He is just too hard on her. And whilst I don't want to belittle him in front of her or seem that we are divided, I cannot condone how he behaves when sulking and she is my priority. He works in child development and I am so surprised he doesn't seem to see how this childish behaviour could be affecting her. She is becoming really attuned to people's emotions and I don't want her to think him being a grumpy twat is her fault.

Tisket, it sounds as if you are waiting on your husband to change - but when has he said he wants or needs to change? So long as he doesn't even acknowledge that there is a problem, he isn't going to make much of an effort.

Is it possible that you feel like you are the sort of person things happen to, rather than feeling in control or as if you have your own agency? You just sound so resigned to all of this.

Are you going to try to talk through it again now that he is calmer?

I am a do-er. I am the one who does. I organise, I do, i am the one who makes things happen, I am the one who problem solves everyone else. But yes, maybe I do feel a bit out of control of my own self. I don't know. This is all making me think too much about stuff I haven't ever considered or realised. I think perhaps at this moment I just feel really overwhelmed. Which may be why I seem a bit passive. I just think I need to collect my head together this week and get my oomph back and act. I do intend on talking to him again. I think I need to get myself better prepared because the next time we talk, if he refuses to listen realistically, we are going to have to call it quits. And that's a scary prospect.

That sounds really sensible. Maybe print out this thread to remind yourself not to minimise his choice of behaviour
Good luck.

I feel he needs a real chance to change his behaviour. So how?

Your dd is 3. He's had THREE years and supposedly knows the effects of abuse on a child.

Exactly how much time do you think he needs?

Please don't sit there and wait any longer. Damage is being done every day of her life. :(

Im not surprised you feel numb. It's a lot to take in.

But you don't have to rush into anything before you are ready. When you are ready you can have another go at getting him to see there's a problem.
I really think that with his career background he very probably does know deep down that his parenting is crap. That background also means he's probably doubly embarrassed and ashamed to admit what a bad dad he's been.
I think it would be a good idea to research parenting classes to give him some options of different ways to handle your dd. If he won't go or put what he learns into practice then you really do only have one other choice.

This is a lot to take in, we know this. But now you know, you have to do.

Your post asks for advice on helping your OH to manage his interactions with your DD. The reason my long-winded post and other more direct ones don't respond to this is because I think you know deep down that you can't make that happen. From what you say, he doesn't have the will to make it happen but perhaps he can. I don't want to minimise how difficult it is to make the break from someone you love even temporarily, especially as he is your child's father but people do it and you can too if you choose to. I heard stories of how abusive my father's parents had been to him and felt that it was my job to make him feel loved - I understood that's perhaps why he didn't know how to be a dad to a very sensitive child as I was and excused his behaviour but always found it hurtful. It was highly embarrassing to me (on his behalf) when family and friends would witness our relationship, see that I seemed to be the adult in the parent/child dynamic and judge him. This impacted on my relationships with everyone else. If you allow it to be ok for her feelings to come second to his, how can she not learn to value herself as less than someone who can't control their emotions? She will be protective of him because he will seem the vulnerable one who didn't have the capacity to put her first as a child. It is you she will blame and then who will she have? Sorry to be so blunt, I just wonder if you need to hear this. Wish you the best OP X

I'm so sorry you are both going through this op. My dad was the same - very immature and my mum never stood up for me, just told me to shush when I asked what was wrong. I was always walking on eggshells and felt that I was making him unhappy. It's so wrong to put this much pressure on a child, to make them feel responsible for crap parenting skills.

The best thing that you can do for your daughter in the short term IMO is to clearly say in front of them both that daddy is behaving badly and it's not her fault. Do this every time, no matter how arsey he is. He needs to hear you telling her that.

In the longer term I'm sure others with more experience can help, but I would consider marriage or family counselling - it's a safe place to bring up issues. It might be difficult to get him to agree to it though.

I couldn't live with it personally. I don't think I could stay with someone who behaves like that.

I realized I was using Mumsnet (and other online stuff) as an escape from the constant turmoil in my head. I was constantly reliving things/ regretting things/ berating myself in my mind, feeling anxious, depressed etc
Sounds like your DH is similar. If you are reading about someone else's problems you are not thinking about your own.

I've been in a similar situation, OP. Some things I found helpful:

• individual counselling for me. NOT joint counselling and you can't make him engage with his counselling, but see if you can talk to someone yourself. This made me see the situation for what it was.

• the diary, as mentioned above. I found that the worst times with exH tended to slide out of my memory very quickly, not because they were forgettable, but I think it's something physical to do with the disruption of how memories are laid down when you're feeling under threat. Seeing the patterns was really helpful. I realised that exH wasn't lovely with flaws, but consistently and quite strategically horrible in order to get his own way. The diary is also very useful later on if there is a dispute over child living arrangements/contact - it helps you articulate why you believe there are issues with his parenting.

• read Lundy Bancroft Why Does He Do That.

• knowledge is power. Talk to Women's Aid/get a free 30 min with a solicitor - if you do decide to go, what are the practicalities.

I'm pretty pessimistic about your H changing - he really hasn't accepted any need to do so. He's not going to suddenly get it no matter how you explain.

And don't feel you have to rush into a permanent decision now - it can take a bit of time to get there. Don't let years go past, but sometimes you have to sit with a revelation for a little bit.

This sounds like such a difficult situation. Would parenting classes, individual therapy and/or relate him? Although as you said, he may not go.
My ds 9yo understands the rules when playing with his little brother and cousins (who are toddlers). He will routinely be amused by, or dismiss, their behaviour by saying "they're only little" because this is what adults have always told him. When the little ones spoil his games, don't want to play by the rules, or when there's the odd breakage he is able to deal with it kindly.
It's acceptable that if DH really wasn't taught this and had a difficult childhood it might have been hard for him to adapt to parenthood, but given his field of work and the fact that you've approached him about this is very concerning. I would never advise anyone to ltb because a relationship is so much more complicated than can ever be understood on an internet forum. You need to think about your own emotional needs and what you require from a partner as well as the negative impact the dh's behaviour is having on dd (both now and when she's older)

Bibliomania 's list is excellent. Journal, absolutely essential: to not just make a record, but it will help you get the stress out of you through the physical action of writing it out.

If you want to try to engage with your dh on this, I suggest a couple of books in addition to the essential Lundy Bancroft Why Does He Do That? . You should read them first. (I do not recommend letting your dh read Bancroft- he may use it as a training manual.)

Parenting From the Inside Out by Daniel Siegel is about changing the historic dynamic. For example, shoe shopping with our parents when we were little does not have to happen the same way when we, as parents, take our children shoe shopping. That was then, this is now kind of thing.

Emotional Intelligence by Daniel Goleman is about evolving beyond our Reptilian Brain and using our thinking skills to navigate circumstances in the moment. Your posts about your dh's interactions with your child flagged up Reptilian Brain to me...he is reacting without thinking.

MyDarling 's suggestion is spot on. Imho, you must (DefCon Red) debrief your dd. Doing so in dh's presence is a good idea if he has the capacity and want to change. But if it will only trigger more violence (throwing things is violence) then debrief your child in private. Your guidance and nurturing concerning the circumstances can mitigate (some what) the negative impact of the dysfunctional dynamic for your daughter with her father. You could even go as far as saying that "Daddy's behavior is how we do not do things...so don't do that...instead do this" (and give an example of what to do). This could be done with doll play. Once won't cut it...you have to stay on top of every single interaction-continue to monitor as you have been (well done). PLEASE note, however, the obvious clue here. If you need to debrief your dd, then your dd should not be around him. Debriefing her can help her perspective while you get your duck in a row to exit. Well, even after/if you leave, I'd still recommend debriefing her after each contact with him.

I think the biggest problem here you have is that you think you love him.

You've done everythign to keep this relationship going, but for very little return. You've been neglected badly by him. He didn't even go in with you to the hospital with a suspected miscarriage :/ he sulks, he doesn't engage with you at all whne something serious comes up ...

Are you sure this man is whom you think he is?

He's not a good parent either. Children need real love - unconditional, there-for-them love. Boundaries applied consistently with love. Spoiling them, then sulking because the child does some very minor thing to displease them, is not being a good parent. A good parent doesn't withdraw love when the toddler is throwing a tantrum; a good parent does their best to hold steadily through the tantrum so that the very young child knows security.

Is there a friend you can tell this to?

I think you might find that someone else may have noticed that all is not well.

It's really sad to see so many people leaping on the bandwagon of just dumping someone when they are obviously struggling

Just to emphasise (in case this is the post that somehow gets to you most OP) - this kind of emotional blackmail MUST NOT stop you protecting your child. He can work on his own MH issues by himself afterwards.

It's all very well supporting our partners, but when they're not getting any help or when they're hurting vulnerable people (especially impressionable children) you have to take stock, back away, and protect yourselves.

Children come first. (And you bloody matter too for that matter!)

It's really sad to see so many people leaping on the bandwagon of just dumping someone when they are obviously struggling

yes, Im sure the OP was struggling too when she was dumped all on her own at the hospital to handle the suspected miscarriage of their child. She also says it's far from the only incident.

It'll all be okay though as long as he gets his own way.

It's really sad to see so many people leaping on the bandwagon of just dumping someone when they are obviously struggling

All the years he's dumped shit on her and she's put up with it and struggled?

Thank you to every one of you whose commented and offered advice and support.
We spoke last night about it again, phone down and eyes locked.
I asked him straight out if he agreed things had to change from his side. He replied with yes and opened up about how hard he finds it and how he knows his behaviour is wrong but that he just reacts, he doesn't think. And that he does feel shit about it. He explained how he knows he can be rational and mature and appropriate because he is with others and at work he would never dream of behaving how he does at home with the two of us. He wasn't at all confrontational and I reiterated that everything has to change or we are gone. I told him about the impact of his words and challenged him to admit whether his comment that 'everything in life except his work is shit' was true or not. He is very proud and I can remember maybe only twice when he has admitted wrongdoing before. I told him that if it was the case it is not fair and he needs to leave the family home. He admitted it was an immature exaggeration, said without any thought. We discussed how what he says and the ignoring is emotionally abusive. I asked what we could do to help him with DD. He came up with some good strategies like switching places with me, counting to ten, asking for my help and being mindful of her age and impressionablility. Parenting classes was a suggestion of mine and still something I will pursue.
We spoke about our relationship and how discussing anything serious always turns into an argument and how I find it hard to broach anything. He told me he sometimes doesn't want to talk heavy at that particular time, usually due to other stresses he has that he fails to communicate to me. I told him how our marriage was hopefully forever and we will need to have lots of heavy discussions over time so they can't be avoided and can't always be scheduled in for when suits him and that they don't have to end up in an argument. Instead of looking at his phone and disengaging from me and making things hostile, he has agreed to just tell me, politely 'I am stressed/tired/not in the mood for this at the moment. Can we discuss it after tea/tomorrow night etc?' I explained how I have felt really let down, alone and emotionally unsupported by him in the past. I can't change the past and neither can he. Some things he can change though and we can try to move forward. He isn't an emotional person whereas I am and need that, I really need hugs when I am sad or for someone to ask how my day is without prompting for example. I do these things for him because that is part of what love is to me but he doesn't need this so doesnt automatically provide this for me. He said it wasn't because he doesnt care or love me, but that it's not what he needs (though he appreciates it). He apologised and he is going to try to think more about me and my needs. We spoke about learning to love people how they need to be loved best you can, obviously within reason.
We are going to keep talking and monitor it over the next month. If we then need parenting classes and counselling then we will look at it.
I have missed out loads I am sure but I wanted to give you all an update because there wouldn't be nothing to update if it wasn't for you. I wouldn't say I was optimistic but I am hopeful. I do feel like we spoke yesterday how we haven't ever done in the past and he opened up more. I felt confident enough to be straight and direct with him. He knows this is not something that will go away without work and if that work isn't happenin then it's over. He has definitely got that message.

Good luck, tisket. I hope he is able to stick to his word, and I wish your DD every happiness.

It sounds like a very positive talk. I hope he sticks to his word. There's a very good book called 'the parenting puzzle'. You can Google it.

Thank you so much all.
I do think he has a lot of narcissistic tendencies and has a really unattractive need to be the 'best'. You're right I should be careful Doesmymarthaclifflookbiginthis because there is a liklihood that he wants a quiet life and thinks things will die down. Only this trial period will tell I guess. I bloody hope he is being sincere. He has been great with DD today and she was particularly testing over dinner and he could have easily lost his temper but was incredibly patient. The weekend will be the tester for him and he will be watched like a hawk.
I'm going to download all these book recommendations. Thank you. This is just the start I think and there's no saying how it ends but I certainly feel more empowered to protect my DD and confident that if it doesn't work out, I will be doing her the world of good by leaving.

That's great, Tisket, you've done everything you can and it's up to him now. If he doesn't make a genuine change (although of course I hope he will), I think you'll be in an emotionally stronger place to make a decision about leaving, because you'll know you've really given him every chance.