This is really chilling, I think

[404NotFound]

Namechanged for this, as potentially too identifiable to FOO stalkers.

I am NC with FOO, for a variety of reasons, none of which I particularly want to rehash here. Occasionally I lurk on a FB forum for parents of estranged adult children, because I find it morbidly fascinating and actually quite validating to observe just HOW bonkers the mindset is.

Today I found this post on there, which sent shivers down my back because it is SO similar to the kind of thing my NMother has sent to me:

The last time I wrote my daughter...a few years ago, I stated the following: "When a person is charged with a crime, the accused is presented with a list of grievances. As your mother, I feel I am entitled to no less a list of grievances in support of your claims of hatred towards me." I've never received a reply, because she has none. We as parents shouldn't accept responsibility for our adult children's short-sightedness and bad behavior.

As ever, it's much easier to see the crazy when it's not your own personal situation being hashed out, but OMG at the demand that the adult child justifies her emotions with a bullet-pointed list of grievances before there can be any question of her being permitted to feel her own feelings. And these people wonder why they are estranged. You'd think round about the time you wrote about your entitlement to a list of grievances to support your child's claims of hatred towards you, you might get a glimmer of realisation about why your adult dc didn't want to be around you. But apparently not.

I lurk on there for a laugh and some of threads are just draw dropping.
Ive noticed its almost always the DILs fault.

what continually baffles me, is that they claim to love their grandchildren.. yet they're all planning to cause rifts between the grandchildren and the grandchildren's own parents with their letters about "my side", some left with solicitors so even if the GPs die there's still a sting in the tail.

Why?, why if you love a child would you seek out to cause rifts in their immediate family. why would you want to do that to a 16/18 yr old you claim to love?

You wouldn't! Even if you don't like the child's parents, surely if you love the child you'ld wish them a happy peaceful family life and not try to smash that up with your "your mean mother" letters.

The NC grans have already found this thread. They're not too happy, but were still trying to look on the bright side when I visited at lunchtime.

Ah so they have

And you know what? I hope that I have raised my kids to know the difference between healthy and unhealthy relationships enough that if I (or anyone) treated them the way my mother treated me, they wouldn't take it

If I somehow turn into her in the future, I pray that my kids would go low or NC and protect their own happiness and have a good life - isn't that what any decent parent would wish for their children?

The NC grans have already found this thread. They're not too happy, but were still trying to look on the bright side when I visited at lunchtime.

OMG, I've just been on there, and they have an actual thread about this thread?!

For the record, when I started this thread, the post I c&p'd in my OP is not from GN, and in fact I had never been on there until about 5 mins ago.

Here's a heads-up, estranged parents/grandparents: Not everything that happens in the entire world is actually about you. Just saying.

This is why you're not That Kind Of Parent, though, isn't it Screen. You have, and use, the ability to put yourself in someone else's shoes and to make altruistic choices on that basis.

The disappointed grand/parents seem to think children are like vending machines: pop in a balanced diet, Christmas presents and a house deposit; a lifetime's worth of unconditional love pops out.

I was so tempted to post that earlier, 404. Word for word!

Oops sorry I think I first mentioned GNet, hope it hasn't derailed anything!

it's interesting that when it's discussed on the general gransnet board, there's sensible comments (most important about the identifiable posts on the estranged thread)

Apart from the odd one gleefully hoping that our children will have such a sad experience of their parents that they're forced to make the difficult decision to NC. What kind of person wishes that on anyone? (particularly currently young children). I wish I had a normal relationship with my mother. It never was. It was a roller coaster going from hurt/pain to eggshells because there was a temporary calm between the storm. It benefits noone to keep that up, and it doesn't benefit children to witness that and grow up thinking it's normal.

As a general rule, if someone wants to be abusive and hurtful to someone, they seek contact with their victims. People who go NC generally just want some peace at last.

I realised, after a birthday card and xmas cards for both DDs (guilt tripping passages galore) that my mum wants a reaction.

When no card arrived on DD1s birthday I thought she had given up. No. She sent it to DD1s dad's house. My abusive ex, who got a suspended prison sentence for what he did to me! She sent a birthday card to him!!!

Little does she know that he has completely turned himself around, and we are now amicable for the sake of DD1. He didn't do what she must have hoped he would do and override me and give the card to DD anyway. He recognized the batshit behaviour for what it was, and finally agreed that keeping DD away from them was the best thing.

I didn't react. And I never will again. It is what she wants. She wants to poke me into telling her to piss off...which makes me the terrible daughter. Fuck that. No more.

Even reading about people sending cards is triggering me.

Does that ever go? Will I ever reach a point where I won't be triggered by this stuff?

Liz - yes, you can get to a point where you feel mild eyerolling irritation at the intrusion and disregard for your boundaries, and a passing sadness at the loss of the relationship that you could have had if they hadn't been so hellbent on insisting that it had to be played only by their rules all of the time.

But it takes a lot of time, heartache and therapy to get to the point where you can deal with in indents like that without getting the rush of panic and self-blame. Accessing professional help is invaluable, IMO.

So sorry Liz - I really didn't mean to post anything that would be triggering in that way for you. :(

Most of the people on the TAAT are being eminently reasonable, I think.

(As a side note, am quite amazed that the bridegate thread has made it to social news in Australia!)

I'm unbelievably grateful for that, 404. Thank you.

I've been fretting since reading Screenshot's post: Guest would walk back in, mother would flick a switch and be lovely to me again. I'ld be left reeling, not being as good an actress as my mother I wouldn't be able to flick a switch back.

I can flick that switch, indeed I can watch the episode in an unemotional, detached way. I can also do the kind of switch Screenshot describes her mother performing. Something's made me feel uncomfortable here, and I haven't been quite sure what it is. I'm very sure I don't have a PD of my own, but sometimes think I have an "inner psychopath" due to my childhood conditioning!

I reckon I need to split the two things up.

Being able to detach is entirely thanks to therapy, and I deserve to congratulate myself on that.
Being more or less inured to sudden outbursts is due to conditioning. I would rather not be as immune as I am, but it's probably a protective mechanism and, coupled with the therapy, quite a useful ability.
My inner psychopath isn't dangerous. Can be quite funny (as in amusing) and, primarily, is helpful if needed to anticipate an irrationally aggressive move - which I'm sure is why it developed in the first place. Perhaps I need to find it some creative outlets? Dunno.

There are still some pieces missing from that ... but this has been a great start.

I hope you don't mind me 'working my issues' on here? Cheers for your patience, anyway!

Without wanting to gratify the GN perception that we're talking about them (and as I said below I had never even been on GN when I started this thread, so it definitely wasn't about them), I am intrigued by the fact that the discussion here was described as 'nasty' and 'unkind'.

Because as far as I can see, the discussion here has mainly been about people trying to work out how one of the most important relationships in their life became so catastrophically unmanageable that they didn't see any option other than to cut off contact.

But the perception that this discussion is somehow an attack does fit with Issendai's analysis (which various people on here have referred to) that the estranged parents cannot bear to hear anything negative, to the extent that they are genuinely unable to process the actual content of what is being said, and simply hear it as abuse and shouting, even if what is being said is objectively a calm and reasonable request for a change of boundaries. I think that analysis goes a long way towards explaining why estranged adult children have found it impossible either to continue with the status quo, or to change the dynamics to create a more manageable relationship.

From my own relationship, things that I/we have done that have been perceived as an unwanted act of aggression and that have triggered a whole series of hostile letters and emails include, for eg:

Objecting to the fact that my EP had taken items from my home without telling me (she tried to justify this by saying she thought the items belonged to her - they didn't)

Asking her not to keep talking about weight loss in front of my slightly chubby 13yo

Asking her not to make comparisons between the dc's academic achievements in front of them

Declining her request for us to lend her a large amount of money to bail her out of a financial mess entirely of her own making

Turning down a last-minute invitation to lunch because we had pre-existing plans to take the children to an event they'd been looking forward to

The list could be extended indefinitely. The point I'm making is that these are all reasonable reactions and boundary requests, which were made calmly and non-confrontationally, and yet they were clearly perceived, and reacted to, as they were unprovoked attacks and deliberate acts of cruelty. Which I think takes me right back to my OP on this thread, in which I quoted the mother who thought she was 'entitled' to demand a 'list of grievances' from her estranged dd. When in fact it's clear that the reason the estranged dc are unwilling to go any further down the path of providing a such a list is because they know from experience how utterly futile it is to try and communicate to these parents anything they don't want to hear, because not only will it not be heard, but it will escalate the conflict further.

It's a hideous stalemate, because I think most estranged adult children are on some level constantly casting around for something that we could do slightly differently that might provide the key to a resolution. But I fear that when confronted with someone who is genuinely unable to take in anything that isn't what they want to hear, there probably is no way forward. Hence the NC.

As a general rule, if someone wants to be abusive and hurtful to someone, they seek contact with their victims. People who go NC generally just want some peace at last
Great point😄

Very insightfull 404!
I wonder if the EPs just stick to a default position of:
I am the parent
I am in charge
Whatever I do is right and cannot be challenged

Screenshot, the situation you describe with your mum sounds terrible, I really feel for you.
It's absolutely not the case in the situation I was talking about though. I'm talking about an adult child making historical accusations of abuse, when I was there at the time of the alleged incidents, in the room, watching and hearing everything and I know for a fact that these events did not occur.

He has convinced himself these things happened, I don't think he is deliberatly lying, which is why I assumed (perhaps wrongly) that he has mental health issues, but I know like I know day is day and night is night that these events did not happen the way he tells it.

So in that circumstances it's devasting for the parent because even though there are two witnesses (me and one other) who can say what happened, every single other person that he speaks to will of course believe him that he was horribly abused, and it's just not true.

I in no way want to minimise anyone else's pain and I'm really sorry if my contributions to this thread have done that. I just find it a heart breaking situation and I don't know how to help and so I tend to join in discussions because I feel like I need to talk about it.

Oh no, don't be sorry. I snuck a peek at the GN thread. It was my own fault.

Its like a scab I can't resist picking at.

I have been through 10 months of counselling which was amazing. It gave me the confidence, first of all to detach a bit, then to calmly try and set boundaries. My counsellor wasn't aware of the level of crazy, but each time a very reasonable boundary was set and the crazy started she soon learned. Then I was able to come to terms with the fall out, and eventually go NC. I stopped earlier this year. I have been lifted out of depression, partly because of the counselling but also because I have peace.

I think its just time passing that will help now. It still feels a bit raw. Its only been 10 months since the first argument. 8 months since NC.

First bit of that was to Thumb.

Its the NA(EP)ALT situation Whatthefuck and that's a ghastly situation for the AC's parents. You can't argue with someone else's distorted personal reality and people will buy into it. AC have the same issue when their parents are the ones with the mental health or personality issues. On MN it tends to be more that parents are the challenging ones in the situation as as Issendai discusses, this is a forum that doesn't go in much for the 'oh she didn't hon, there there!' approach and far more towards the 'what did you say/what happened before that/have you tried this and this and informed yourself like that/what are you going to do about it' approach, expecting a sensible and proactive poster, which quickly identifies if the AC is the one being unreasonable or not seeing a justified POV from the EPs. (And if so they get told about it in words of one syllable!)

Often in a post you can spot the giveaways very quickly as to whether the EP is unconsciously seeing things in a distorted way. There is often the refrain of not knowing why the AC has gone NC (word 'abandoned' often used which is a giveaway in itself that they see the AC as failing to meet their needs in a cruel way) and yet reference sometimes in the same post to unfounded and unreasonable accusations of abuse by their AC. So they do know their AC's perceived reality and reasons, but aren't logging them. Someone as in your situation who says up front 'my child has gone NC due to their false perceptions of something that didn't happen' is immediately more credible to me than someone who says 'I have no idea why they have done this to me'. There is often also consistent unconscious reference to it being all about them and their needs and feelings. Their rights have not been met, the AC's feelings and thoughts are pretty much not on their radar at all (so again incomprehensible) and there are often mentions of how lonely/boring their life is without the AC, which can suggest the dependence on enmeshment and expectation that those people are there to entertain and create a family life for them. Plus the very frequent references to cards, emails, gifts, visits, all of which are intended to get attention and a reaction, because that's what they crave. The withdrawal of attention and feedback is perceived as an ongoing, painful attack where the AC is seeing it as desperately needed respite and dreads every interruption to it.

Whatthe - maybe if you started your own thread about your situation, you'd probably get more people who have been in the same sort of dynamic, where it's a sibling that's causing the upset rather than the parents, answering. Which would probably be more constructive in terms of you working through your feelings about it, wouldn't it?

Keep posting here as well if it's helping, though. :)

Liz - glad the counselling is helping. I had several years of it, most of the first 2 were based around my mother issues :(

I want to join in. I m not sure where I m at and today I ve a busy day, so I might not get back on for a while, but my relationship with my mum is exactly as described here. She s narc, controlling. Though MN and some councilling I be made great progress. And I now have distance and more control over my own and my children s lives. It s incredibly difficult, when things are on an even keel, I keep getting reeled back in I guess I want a normal mother child or GM GC relationship. But then she does stuff, like described previously by other posters, and it all kicks off- and like others describe it s a period of where she backs off - 'waiting for me to come to my senses or apologise' So it s back into a cycle of stress again. NC is not an option as it would distress the rest of the family too much. Most recent was us booking an holiday- cue a tirade abuse and sulking, I think it s because she didn't know we were going to book a holiday this year. My db witnessed her reaction, told her off for it and cue a repentant text. (We can afford holiday, we go on one annually, nothing overly extravagant, no idea why she was so angry about it apart from the fact she wasn't expecting it). Anyway I wanted to tentatively jump on Bord. Hope it s ok.

Here's a slightly different perspective: my nearly exh is the parent my dd is gradually going nc with. We have several children, none his, but she seems to have been his target. 2 of my sons are nc with him, but he's now not particularly bothered.
Ex is personality disordered and extremely manipulative. It took me years to see what he was like and that it wasn't all me failing to be reasonable.
I c&p ed an earlier post from 404 and sent it to dd. It was so like him it was uncanny. I want dd to realise 100% it is ex with the problem, not her. She gets the avalanche of messages justifying his behaviour, accusing her of blocking him having a relationship with his gc, accusing her of ingratitude, taking sides, hurting him, not living up to her values. Anything really.

He's tried recruiting the other children to his cause but that's failed miserably.
He could easily have written the self-pitying, totally lacking insight posts on that gn thread.
His mother is the same with her children and they are all either nc or vlc.
Incidentally I have a good relationship with all my children. He tried very, very hard to disrupt it but didn't succeed.
I support dd, try to give her coping strategies and listen.
These parents aren't normal, massively entitled, destroyers of peace.

glass MIL does this. Her 'refrain' to DH is 'you're still my son' i.e. you're subordinate to me. It prevents any kind of normal relationship or discourse, then she gets upset when we see loads more of my parents. It's just so tiring.

Yoko we had "I'm still the head of this family" from STBX (heavens be praised) MIL.

Really? Me and my children barely knew her. But she was Head of the Family, because her son was Head of me and my children and she was Head of him. In her deluded brain.