This is really chilling, I think

[404NotFound]

Namechanged for this, as potentially too identifiable to FOO stalkers.

I am NC with FOO, for a variety of reasons, none of which I particularly want to rehash here. Occasionally I lurk on a FB forum for parents of estranged adult children, because I find it morbidly fascinating and actually quite validating to observe just HOW bonkers the mindset is.

Today I found this post on there, which sent shivers down my back because it is SO similar to the kind of thing my NMother has sent to me:

The last time I wrote my daughter...a few years ago, I stated the following: "When a person is charged with a crime, the accused is presented with a list of grievances. As your mother, I feel I am entitled to no less a list of grievances in support of your claims of hatred towards me." I've never received a reply, because she has none. We as parents shouldn't accept responsibility for our adult children's short-sightedness and bad behavior.

As ever, it's much easier to see the crazy when it's not your own personal situation being hashed out, but OMG at the demand that the adult child justifies her emotions with a bullet-pointed list of grievances before there can be any question of her being permitted to feel her own feelings. And these people wonder why they are estranged. You'd think round about the time you wrote about your entitlement to a list of grievances to support your child's claims of hatred towards you, you might get a glimmer of realisation about why your adult dc didn't want to be around you. But apparently not.

This is really interesting - shows the difference in perspectives- both sides think they are in the right!

The difference being that one party has tied themselves in knots trying to understand and accommodate the other side, and has probably taken their mental health to the brink and back by taking on most of the responsibility and blame.

Whereas the other side is convinced that they are right and that if the adult child cannot see that, then they are bad and wrong, and are wilfully refusing to accept the parent's viewpoint.

I once said to my estranged parent, in frustration, "Do you want to have a relationship, or do you just want to be right the whole time? Because the two don't really go together." I never got an answer to that, which is kind of an answer in its own right.

I would gladly always be wrong if it meant having a mum that treated me well.

LizKeen It isn't healthy to always accept or pretend to be in the wrong in order to maintain an amicable relationship. That's what victims of abusers do. And then they start to think that they really are always in the wrong and bad and worthless and lose all self esteem which makes them even more vulnerable to the abuse. Then the abuser knows how powerful a position they are in and ramps up the abuse even further. So the being treated well doesn't last because there is always some new unsuspected hoop that you will fail to jump through.

"But siblings can come away from the same upbringing with very different world views"

I disagree, not with the sentiment of the statement but the idea that a scapegoat and a golden child have had 'the same upbringing' that's the problem they haven't had the same upbringing, simply the same parents and possibly home.

A golden child has been reprimanded less, rewarded more, feted etc. But that's not to say that being a golden child is any less abusive or damaging. In a book I read (novel) a minor character is seen as a golden child, a favourite and the main character sees themselves as useless, a burden. Another character points out that there's pressure on the golden child too (to never be less than perfect, to never complain as they've nothing to complain about etc).

These types of families are completely dysfunctional.

These types of estranged parents are lashing out at the fact that their adult child has dared step out of the role they have been in assigned in the dysfunctional family and are basically view the child as challenging and questioning the whole family set up. It took me a long time not to think "well if all my family members are telling me my behaviour is wrong and I need to do 'x' to keep my parents happy then I must be wrong". Actually they all have a vested interest in making the family image appear a certain way to outsiders and are trying desperately to get you back in line. You have only 2 options; suck it up or go NC.

These estranged parents are completely incapable of seeing the adult child's point of view as it doesn't align with their own. They just don't get unconditional love and respect. You can turn your mind inside out trying to figure out why they behave in this way. Might as well cut your losses, live your life and be happy.

Baconyum, I actually think golden children have it harder in the long run. It's harder to see the utter fucked-up-ness of the family organism if you are rarely openly on the receiving end of the abuse (god knows, it's hard enough if you are), yet the golden children are abused too, in the sense that they are denied the opportunity to form healthy realtionships with parents, siblings, the wider world, and, eventually, their own children. They also know from an early age I think, even if only unconsciously, that the approval they get is deeply conditional on their continued acceptability to the abusive parent - whether that's something measurable (passing exams, being boast-worthy in some way) or more subtle (indulging the parent and their worldview), which is a very stressful, self-esteem eroding place to be. They never lose that drive to remain golden, as their whole self-worth and self-image depends on it, which is a terrible prison long-term, imo.

"Do you want to have a relationship, or do you just want to be right the whole time? Because the two don't really go together."

404, this makes me because I know I'm guilty of this with my own kids, and in my relationships generally. Such a struggle always to break the cycle. I try never to forget that. One of the things I hate most is hearing myself say something - even something ostensibly quite innocent - that I know has come from my mother's mouth.

[Golden children] know from an early age I think, even if only unconsciously, that the approval they get is deeply conditional on their continued acceptability to the abusive parent

Yes, it took me a long time to get to grips with this. Well, with any of it really, but my resentment/envy and idolisation of GC ran pretty deep! I grew into an adult who believed herself faulty & inferior. I yearned for approval but didn't consider myself worthy of it. Golden Child grew to believe himself glorious & gifted - but only if he performed perfectly at every turn.

The victimisation of the scapegoat is a way to control the favoured child as well - in the same way that decimisation controls the whole troop. Seeing what happened to me when I failed (always), he was in no doubt what lay in store for him should he slip off his pedestal.

• decimation, sorry! Shooting every 10th soldier in the line.

Some children don't grow up to be very nice people, some adults are not very nice people, and those people are probably equally as horrible to their parents as they are to the rest of the world

People who know me through the filter of my mother probably see me as the "problem" leading to our NC.
People who know me and haven't got a history of hearing me described by my mother, wouldn't recognise the version of me you would hear if you asked someone who has had me/my actions described to them by my mother.

It's called gasslighting. When the Narc/EAer makes the victim look a bit mad/bad to others.

It only works on mutual acquaintances/mutual friends/mutual family though. Once you go NC the people in your life who have nothing to do with your narc parent don't see you that way at all

For example, say we were at a do or had guests round. My mother would be the picture of loveliness to me all evening. Guests would leave the room to use the loo etc, she would turn to me and spit venom, possibly physically hurt me. Guest would walk back in, mother would flick a switch and be lovely to me again. I'ld be left reeling, not being as good an actress as my mother I wouldn't be able to flick a switch back to happy families after what just happened, and I'ld end up getting upset or leaving. Mother would turn to the guests and say "I just don't know why she's like that, she's so unpredictable, I don't know what to do to help her? I wonder if she's depressed". Guests would agree with her that I acted dreadfully towards my poor mother.

So be careful, very careful before you judge other people's NC, even if you think you "know" the family, if it's a narc / gasslighting situation you may well have been one of the onlookers who was "used" to enhance the abuse by being witness to scenarios that the Narc parent set up to goat the child or adult into "behaving badly" for no reason

My mother I think is baffled that my decision to NC is permanent

She seemed confused that I wasn't just NCing her to make a point or "win" an arugement or somehow get my own way.
Because that's what she does, she'll go NC with someone for a short while because she wants to win an arguement or make them grovel back to her
With her, NCing = always because she wants contact (usualy grovelling and eventually making up after the cut-off person has appeared to suffer enough for her liking)
That's what she does with other people frequently. Short term NCing to punish someone for something. It's all about power and control and manipulation

She can't understand that I want NC because it's the most peaceful option. I'm not "winning", it's not about power or control. Well yes actually, it IS about control, but it's control over my own life that I want, I don't want anything from her.

I.DON'T.WANT.ANYTHING.FROM.HER.

This is what they (Narc estranged parents) don't get. They don't understand how ordinary people think. They don't understand that we don't want anything from them. they only understand motivations similar to their own: i.e. we must be doing it because we want something from them, and they speculate it might be punishments, or grovelling, or money etc..

MrsLupo I agree about that blog. So much of it resonates with me. It gives me comfort in a strange way. It validates my feelings. My mum told me stuff that my brother apparently said. Now I really don't think he did. She put her feelings onto him, instead of owning them for herself. It only stands to reason that she has been doing the same to me all along towards other people

This.

If my mother dislikes someone, she'll often find someone else to do the dirty work of falling out with them for her.
She'll mutter in a 3rd parties ear about them untill that person gets so fed up with them it all comes out.
… then of course my mother will sympathise with the person about what the 3rd party said about them..when it all came from her planting her nasty little seeds

I am a golden child. What a fricking curse.

The most heinous example of my father's clear messaging re: acceptability was when I was raped in college. He told me that one day, I would realise it wasn't rape, but my mother's "frigidity" coming out in me. He then drove me to the graveyard to show me the grave of a priest who tried to put his leg up his short trousers while they were playing chess. "Now you will appreciate what real abuse is, Fusion. Think of what you'd put this young man through if you reported him!".

Yes, let's think about that some more, shall we?

My father also, while training as a psychotherapist, took on the wife of his dead friend as a client, slept with her and told my mother about it. He slept with many women and swung between petulance and rage if she didn't ooh and aah over the PHOTOGRAPHS he brought her of these women because she wasn't being "supportive" of his needs, given, you know, her "frigidity". Yes, because not wanting to have sex with someone who treats you like that is clearly a sign of sexual problems in the woman, eh?

He rings my phone drunkenly and does all of this - but I don't know what I did, I never hit you, I never came on to you even though you are the only woman [other than current wife] I ever loved... you don't know the meaning of the word abuse, you are clearly mentlaly ill blah blah blah.

Yeah, nc we will be remaining. And yes, I ended up with OCD after the birth of my second child - but no, that's not why we don't have contact. Given that the overwhelming majority of individuals with MH issues have a history of trauma, where this co-incides with being NC with parents I would bet in 9/10 cases it is because the parent was an abuser.

Fucking hell, fusion.

YYY to your last sentence.

I've worked as an HCP and have mental illness myself (also ocd, also golden child [to one parent scapegoat to other now THAT'S fucked up!]), also abused in other ways as well as emotionally. I don't believe I've met anyone with certain mental illnesses where abuse of some kind wasn't a factor. Not saying everyone with mental illness is a victim but that's my personal experience. Yet as was said upthread what happens is the mental illness is then used as 'proof' the abuse DIDN'T happen!

Soooo familiar with the 'we gave you everything you needed' 'never raised a hand to you' (not true actually), 'you really didn't have it as bad as you make out'. And people who know me separately from my family have a completely different view of me!

A lot of you are describing my mil. She has 3 ds's, the oldest is a thug who treated her like dirt, the golden middle child who can do no wrong, and the youngest, the scapegate (my dp). Their relationship is awful and has dp's mental health pushed to the edge. He's been saying for about a year he wants to go nc. The oldest has been nc with her for 2 years, and the "golden child" isn't officially nc but sees her as little as possible, will stand up for himself, call her out on things, walk away from her. But dp is very timid around her, or gets stroppy like a teenager. He craves her love and approval, but it never comes. No matter how many selfish demands he accomodates. Reading this is giving me a lot of insight.

I also think she manipulated me. At first I thought dp was really unreasonable, until she let her guard down a few times in front of me or was caught out being horrible to dp (drunk and forgetting herself, overheard phone calls, listening from other room/through window etc). Now I feel very guilty I backed her up so much in the first 2 or 3 years we were together, and sorry for poor dp/ angry at mil. He has two close much older female friends who together somewhat fill the gap. I think it's good he has mother figures to confide in/ask for advice, but it's a damn shame his mum can't see how close she is to loosing him forever, or that her behaviour is a huge factor in why.

This resonated with me.
"if it's a narc / gasslighting situation you may well have been one of the onlookers who was "used" to enhance the abuse by being witness to scenarios that the Narc parent set up to goad the child or adult into "behaving badly" for no reason".

LizKeen It isn't healthy to always accept or pretend to be in the wrong in order to maintain an amicable relationship. That's what victims of abusers do. And then they start to think that they really are always in the wrong and bad and worthless and lose all self esteem which makes them even more vulnerable to the abuse. Then the abuser knows how powerful a position they are in and ramps up the abuse even further. So the being treated well doesn't last because there is always some new unsuspected hoop that you will fail to jump through.

Yes, THIS. For this kind of parent 'being right' doesn't mean winning an argument about the best way to make spaghetti bolognese, or whether Jeremy Corbyn would make a good Prime Minister, or even whether gay people are all going to hell. It means the parent assumes they have the absolute right to behave exactly as they choose towards you, whether that involves shouting at you or physically slapping you if you express an opinion they disagree with, blatantly favouring one of your children against the other (one gets a antique gold necklace for Christmas, the other gets a fiver in an envelope, that kind of thing), expecting you leave your place of work in the middle of a meeting to pick them up from a hospital appointment despite the ready availability of taxis, etc etc. And that any attempt by you to set some boundaries around this kind of carry-on results in a massive hissy fit and an avalanche of follow-up letters and emails telling you what a horrible selfish thoughtless person you are, and itemising everything you've ever done wrong since 1982.

The whole point of this kind of 'relationship' is that you can never be right, because the dynamics are structured so that you are always in the wrong (in psychotherapy terms, the parent is projecting all their own negative characteristics onto you, so that they can avoid dealing with it internally, and just shout at you instead). It's a mental health car-crash, tbh.

fucking hell. Sorry to be off topic but I can't help noting how much of this feels like my P (or soon to be ex P)

this

" I was definitely speaking at normal volume, with feeling but no anger, using "When this happens, I feel that" and "How would it be for you if we did this that way?" " - and getting a response as if I was savaging him

this

"to always accept or pretend to be in the wrong in order to maintain an amicable relationship."

is what happened when we went to a relationship counsellor one time. the counsellor began by saying "What seems to be the problem?" basically, and his response was that I was angry, difficult, and irrational, with mental health issues. I accepted this for the purposes of being able to have a conversation with him in the same room. We didn't go back though (we didn't work out getting a baby sitter - but really I couldn't be arsed making a regular appointment to sit and listen to him tell someone this shit and me have to agree with it, like I always did at home)

I had no idea this was a thing. My PIL have been estranged from us since DD1 was a few months old all brought on by my MIL. She tried to contact DH a few years ago via a FB message but was only interested in guilt tripping him it was very clear from the message. They've never been told about DD2 although they'll know she exists because DH still speaks to other family members and they'll have told them. The blog was an interesting read i could've been reading something written specifically about MIL. Very nice to know we're not alone and this has happened to others. She nearly ruined our relationship and I'm glad she no longer speaks to us but I know DH still hurts over it all so will maybe point him to the Internet so he can have a read.

It is isolating and very confusing, too. When I was hit, at least I knew I'd been hit. Emotional abuse makes you believe that it's all in your head. I don't call my OCD "mental illness" because I am not ill - I learned those behaviours from years of years of being gaslighted at the same time as being held responsible for everything. I was taught that not only could I not trust the evidence of my own eyes or the sensation "this is not right" in my gut but that my poor judgement was likely to cause grave harm to others. That's not a brain disorder. That's a learning history. Undoubtedly over time, it will have worn a groove into my brain and made the behaviour more and more automatic, but this was not knit in the womb. Maybe it is for some, but certainly not for me.

The repercussions of childhood abuse are grave, considering how many of us are then further stigmatised by the world for having experienced our pain. When I went back to work after OCD and a young girl in my job (also HCP) was showing clear signs of OCD in ways that resonated with me as being possibly related to abuse, I was sent to Occupational Health and told that I was projecting and needed more time off. The following year, she was removed to care and her stepfather taken to court for sexually abusing her.

I have a friend who can't understand how I could be so "callous" to my father as to be nc, because his father "is an alcoholic" e.g. he drinks pints every night and is emotionally absent, but this is seen as being the same as my story with my father, when I was horrendously abused.

So forgive me if I find it a bit triggering to read "both sides think they are right"- well, yes, they do. My father is a well-respected professional in the psychotherapy field in his area - pulling the wool over everyone's eyes while behaving despicably and unethically at home and at work. His perspective doesn't count, sorry.

Dear god fusion. Bloody awful enough to have gone through all that physical abuse. But for your father to be a well respected psychotherapist and then to come home and be like this - ! To consistently undermine you and yoru faith in yourself so extensively and with the tools of a psychotherapist in hand ... christ that is evil.

... I hope that you have been to find some peace, even if there are terribly tough times.

--

Have posted quite often before as Meerka/OnceaMeer... am nearly completely NC with my adoptive father and was NC for a long time with severely mentally ill biological mother.

So I've got first hand experience of being NC for extremely good reason. It hurts a lot.

Even so, I do think that whatthefuckname has a point. Parents pass on misery very often down to the next generation. But occasionally it is the other way around. Not often, but it does happen. I dont think whatthefuck was being aggressive at all, but simply putting up one strand of what can happen sometimes. I do think it's important to allow a moderate voice to put another pov.

My last post was taken wrong. I was trying to make the point that I have no interest in always being right. I also found it triggering to read "both sides think they are right" because I have no problem accepting I am wrong.

Totally agree that it is unhealthy to be happy to always be wrong in order to appease someone. And a loving mother wouldn't expect that of their child anyway.

My point of view is different, and I think I have also presented it moderately that it is triggering and the reasons I disagree with highlighting it.

It feels a bit #notallmen, to me. That's not an insult, it is just how it feels to me. There may well be abusive children in homes where both parents were exemplary in behaviour and outlook, but the literature suggests they are in the minority. I am not playing guardian or gatekeeper by giving my perspective - sharing disagreement doesn't mean I am not "allowing" another point of view. Of course all here are welcome to share their own thoughts.