This is really chilling, I think

[404NotFound]

Namechanged for this, as potentially too identifiable to FOO stalkers.

I am NC with FOO, for a variety of reasons, none of which I particularly want to rehash here. Occasionally I lurk on a FB forum for parents of estranged adult children, because I find it morbidly fascinating and actually quite validating to observe just HOW bonkers the mindset is.

Today I found this post on there, which sent shivers down my back because it is SO similar to the kind of thing my NMother has sent to me:

The last time I wrote my daughter...a few years ago, I stated the following: "When a person is charged with a crime, the accused is presented with a list of grievances. As your mother, I feel I am entitled to no less a list of grievances in support of your claims of hatred towards me." I've never received a reply, because she has none. We as parents shouldn't accept responsibility for our adult children's short-sightedness and bad behavior.

As ever, it's much easier to see the crazy when it's not your own personal situation being hashed out, but OMG at the demand that the adult child justifies her emotions with a bullet-pointed list of grievances before there can be any question of her being permitted to feel her own feelings. And these people wonder why they are estranged. You'd think round about the time you wrote about your entitlement to a list of grievances to support your child's claims of hatred towards you, you might get a glimmer of realisation about why your adult dc didn't want to be around you. But apparently not.

Great posts, Screenshotting. The nice/nasty switch-flip is something no one who hasn't seen it can really imagine. My brother would do this to me, which backs up the assertion I've read in various places that golden children are more likely to be come narcissists themselves in adulthood. It leaves you gasping for breath like a deranged goldfish, you just can't believe your ears. And yet, the years it takes to realise that this is really, really pathological behaviour, and that the problem is not your own approach to the relationship... If there's anything I hope most for this and similar threads, it's that they help other people to make sense of the dysfunctional behaviour around them before too many decades of life are wasted dancing around the needs of the toxic people in their lives. I think MN is really good, actually, for raising awareness around the issue of toxic families and friendships - I have never met many people in RL who 'get it' so readily.

And that any attempt by you to set some boundaries around this kind of carry-on results in a massive hissy fit and an avalanche of follow-up letters and emails telling you what a horrible selfish thoughtless person you are, and itemising everything you've ever done wrong since 1982.

Not funny at all really, but this did make me laugh. So tediously familiar and in relation to such ridiculous grievances. Being able to laugh reduces the ability of this sort of behaviour to hurt anymore and is very healthy, I think.

Oops, italic fail, sorry. All 3 paras are supposed to be in italic.

Thinking about issues like this I sometimes think that the vast majority of people of "the older generation" were badly parented themselves, and damaged. (I am not making excuses.) I think a lot of conventional parenting wisdom of the past has left people emotionally stunted in very damaging ways.

(I am now having to stop myself from dashing to my children's school, barging in, hugging them and telling them I love them)

The second one is a desperate attempt to reclaim power. Sad really, rather than focusing on what part they played in bringing the situation to that point they're still trying to score points.

If my mother dislikes someone, she'll often find someone else to do the dirty work of falling out with them for her.
She'll mutter in a 3rd parties ear about them untill that person gets so fed up with them it all comes out.
… then of course my mother will sympathise with the person about what the 3rd party said about them..when it all came from her planting her nasty little seeds

This actually happened to me. My mum bitched about another family member to me for a year. A whole fucking year. Every conversation led back to this family member. I repeatedly told her to just talk to the person. Just sort it out. But she wouldn't. In the end I did, and everything blew up in MY face. The family member screamed and shouted AT ME, took the keys of my car so I couldn't drive away. It was awful.

Next thing, they are in a room together sorting it out...I wasn't part of that. I was just expected to forgive and forget and move on. As soon as my mum had made the family member "see sense" it was all hunky dory.

fusion that is horrendous.

404NotFound Thank you for starting this thread.

We are at the beginning of our journey and at breaking point with DP/PIL. Just this week I resorted to putting a LONG depressing post in Relationships about nightmare, controlling PIL. I recognise some of the very wise responders on here too and we have been extremely grateful for everyone's input. . Our eyes are opening and it's a very painful place to be.

I have found that blog absolutely fascinating and am learning so much from this thread too. It is really helping me to prepare for the inevitable WW3 which will occur when the boundary-drawing e-mail goes out. Thank you all for adding to our foundations and making us feel a bit stronger.

I am truly sympathetic for all of you who have had first hand experience of this.

Fusion

And to all the others on this thread who have suffered/are suffering from NPD/abusive parents.

My father emotionally abused me from the day he laid eyes on me - at 3 months old after he discharged from the army. Everyone says he was a father too young (22), he had PTS, he had an alcohol problem, he was abused by his own parents and older brothers - the excuses were/are endless.

My brother came along 5 years later and miraculously he was ready to be a father, but just not to me. I was "too sensitive and too needy". He trained my brother in his ways and it was their game to see who could make me cry first.

My father cheated on my mother several times. First time he moved out with OW was when I was 12. He was mad as hell at me because I found him out as I overheard him speaking to OW on the spare phone and told my mum. He moved out for about 12 months and didn't speak to me. He eventually came back home and then found another woman and moved out again when I was 15.

That was 30 years ago. The OW married my father and has hated me since day one. I equally loathe her. I never got invited to visit them or be totally accepted as part of their lives. They however doted on my brother and took him on holidays, etc.

I have just learned this week that my father deceived his wife and all these years has led her to believe he was separated from my mother when they hooked up. For 30 years she did not view herself as the OW and therefore totally thought my animosity towards her was unwarranted and retaliated with worse than what I gave her. My father kept me at a distance all these years and encouraged the poor and largely absent relationship because he knew I knew the truth and if I worked this out and shared, his relationship with OW would be compromised. My brother was too young to know the truth, and he too only found out this year that my father in fact left our mother for another woman (and was carrying on with the both of them for sometime beforehand).

So, the thing is, I have been very low contact and don't let my father see my kids much and he cannot understand why. He is quite vocal about how I am a terrible daughter and he's done nothing wrong and all he's ever done was parent me the best he knew how - blah, blah, blah. Whilst I do have a relationship with my brother, he places the blame of the estrangement I have with my father squarely with me.

I can only imagine the side of the story he'd tell on a forum for estranged parents! Yes, I have mental health issues - anxiety and depression (treated), but my god - he's the cause! But the man is nearly 70 and will never, ever see the daughter he damaged for her worth and he will never acknowledge or accept that he is the reason we are virtually NC. I have been through emotional hell and grieved the father I really needed and all along, he has contrived this shit that has done so much damage to keep his secrets and lies under the carpet.

WokenupinaNightmare, I've just caught up with your other thread (not much work getting done here today ). Just wanted to say how very sorry I am for all you've been through and wish you well, both with your health and your PILs.

My DH is not NC with his parents but keeps then very much at arms length.

We get almost annual demands for an explanation. Initially I tried to explain but it just makes matters worse, so now we ignore ( well DH always has, I'm a slow learner ).

His parents do not accept they are difficult or unpleasant and use the 'close' relationship they have with their other son and his wife (latest) as proof.

They ignore the litany of other family members, neighbours and friends who don't speak to them any more . No doubt that's all coincidence.

fusionconfusion not saying you were anything other than moderate. You were!

i find some of the Gransnet threads awful too. Chilling is the right word. You've got no chance at all of any genuine communication and that is almost frightening.

Sherash: xxx

That kind of parenting has many of the characteristics of a totalitarian state, I think.

Inasmuch as you can be randomly punished for anything you say or do that contradicts the official narrative, even though that narrative bears very little relation to reality and is subject to random change at short notice, so you can never be entirely sure what is or isn't acceptable.

And when you've had enough of living under the constant thread of random punishment and criticism and decide it's time to leave, it turns out that removing yourself from the situation is also completely unacceptable and unleashes a further torrent of punishment and abuse.

And yet the parents dishing this out claim to have no idea why their children have cut contact with them. [headdesk] It really is a very special kind of crazy.

404 That was a wise post I agree with it all. And of course it's extremely difficult to remain logical and remove yourself from the situation when the behaviours are presented as 'kindly' support.

'We mean well,' 'only doing our very best for you,' 'we've always had your best interests at heart', 'everything that we do is through love' 'we're doing this from the kindest of our hearts,' blah blah blah. I certainly questioned my own feelings all the way through and started to doubt whether I was being unreasonable to not let PIL in any further. When it gets to the stage when you begin to be fearful of your own mental health and the mental stability of your DH, then it has to stop.

Sorry, I laughed at you with your head on the desk saying this

It really is a very special kind of crazy. I will remember that phrase. On the bleak days.

And thank you MrsLupo for ploughing through my ridiculously long thread and sending well wishes. I have felt happier and stronger this week than I have in over a year, thanks to people like you taking the time to post valuable insight. Tough on the inside isn't it?!!

If I wanted to send flowers to all the posters here who have suffered 'abuse' in all it's various forms by the very people who are supposed to love and protect us, I would need a floristry wholesaler and a fleet of vehicles! for you all.

And the one who told her toddler GC that she does see (on front of her not estranged child) "I WOULD FIGHT FOR YOU"
(and she names all parties too!)

Is it bad form to ask what this thread is called?

There is some really worrying stuff on there. I find it worrying how freely they give information and even photos (!!!) of estranged family members. One poster gives links to a blog she's writing to an estranged GC. Photos and names and really manipulative posts about how "mummy won't let you see us".
It's not difficult to see how relationships break down when people behave that way. It's scary to be honest.

Reading those posts on GN you start to see the cognitive processes that go into enabling abusive behaviour within a family, be it sexual, physical or emotional. It really is quite disturbing.

If I were one of their estranged children I would be seeking legal protection stopping them from posting pictures of my children online. Surely there must be something they could do?

Why doesn't GN HQ regulate it in terms of removing links to blogs with pictures or names of family members?

Reading those posts on GN you start to see the cognitive processes that go into enabling abusive behaviour within a family, be it sexual, physical or emotional. It really is quite disturbing

yes you really can!
On one page they're all agreeing that it's evil DILs and SILs turning their children agaisnt them… a few pages on they're all saying it's their children who are the bad guys and they'll never forgive them.. IMO they two are mutually exclusive: IF your child in in an abusive relationship where they have been isolated as part of EA, you keep the door open, ALWAYS, and welcome them back.

They really want to use the GCs to "win" and stick the knife in don't they, most of the chat isn't about trying to build bridges and come to an agreement, it's mostly about how they can get their message about their nasty children and DILs/SILs to the GCs eventually..

They don't really care about their GCs, they just wanna "win" and use them against their children

"Is it bad form to ask what this thread is called?"
You'll spot it on active threads on there

At some point someone on GN is bound to mention this thread (it's happened before).

I've had a lurk on there in the past (checking the MIL isn't on there) and there does seem to be a lack of self awareness and not understanding why they've been cut off.

That blog is spot on. My MIL has blamed everyone except herself for our period of NC (DH now has phone contact only). So much in fact, we assumed (she was having MH problems at the time) that she might not actually remember her behaviour at all.

Except she has dropped herself in it recently. She referred to an incident that happened right at the height of the 'troubles', she has whitewashed it so she is the injured party. Very similar to one of the comments at the end of the blog, she remembered DH shouting at her but seems to have completely forgotten the context of the situation (which involved her sneaking into our back garden and attempting to enter our house uninvited rather than knocking on the front door like everybody else).

they have no insight, there would be no "use" in sign posting them to this or to any of the other narc parents threads, they'll see what they wanna see. Which is that either you are golden, or you are bad and need to be punished.