This is really chilling, I think

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Namechanged for this, as potentially too identifiable to FOO stalkers.

I am NC with FOO, for a variety of reasons, none of which I particularly want to rehash here. Occasionally I lurk on a FB forum for parents of estranged adult children, because I find it morbidly fascinating and actually quite validating to observe just HOW bonkers the mindset is.

Today I found this post on there, which sent shivers down my back because it is SO similar to the kind of thing my NMother has sent to me:

The last time I wrote my daughter...a few years ago, I stated the following: "When a person is charged with a crime, the accused is presented with a list of grievances. As your mother, I feel I am entitled to no less a list of grievances in support of your claims of hatred towards me." I've never received a reply, because she has none. We as parents shouldn't accept responsibility for our adult children's short-sightedness and bad behavior.

As ever, it's much easier to see the crazy when it's not your own personal situation being hashed out, but OMG at the demand that the adult child justifies her emotions with a bullet-pointed list of grievances before there can be any question of her being permitted to feel her own feelings. And these people wonder why they are estranged. You'd think round about the time you wrote about your entitlement to a list of grievances to support your child's claims of hatred towards you, you might get a glimmer of realisation about why your adult dc didn't want to be around you. But apparently not.

People who are used to being controlling - and use power plays of all sorts, which will include manipulating by using emotional withdrawal tactics such as ignoring and "The cold shoulder" often cannot see that this set of go -to weapons is not what the estranged child is using.

The parent sees the familiar in the pattern and are damned by their own assumptions really.

On the offchance I come back to this thread and it's totally full I want to say thank you again to everyone who's posted and shared their thoughts.

Me too! I wanted to write tons more but didn't get the chance (it's half term here) but it's been a real education, reading people's analyses. When I read the sort of stuff from estranged parents that, say, Issendai quotes, I get a vague sense of unease but not much more and seeing other people take it apart and name it all, makes it a lot easier to pinpoint what's going on.

Related but tangentially, did any of you see Happy Valley? Spoilers follow.

And if so, did you see the scene where Cawood is trying to reason with the "girlfriend" of the psychopath? Trying to get her to see sense? And the girlfriend doesn't want to know because she's been prepped by the psychopath not to believe her? And Cawood just keeps on trying to tell her she's got it wrong. I found that scene very hard to watch - I felt scared for Cawood, I can't say why exactly, I just had this feeling that the scene would escalate, that she'd be in the wrong somehow - and I realised I was being triggered, that I've lived that loads of times, trying as a child to get my mother to stop being angry at me by getting her to understand something that was very obvious to anyone else (and failing, and getting in more trouble). It was incredibly healing watching Cawood just insist on the bloody truth. Well you guys are doing the same for me here. It's so validating.

I'd vote for that PingPang

I don't think I can get across the feeling of immense relief and support you have all given me. Thank you, so much You've all been so kind, and I was so afraid of being judged.

I'd vote for the new thread title too!

Fusion, fantastic post. Totally bang on the money with my father too. I need to get the insight you all have!

Talk about timing... my mother has just started drafting in the flying monkeys. I went NC without telling her anything, just changed phone no etc, and we had the odd letter which went in the bin. Now a relative has asked for my number for her. I think I need to get in touch and tell her we don't want any contact. What's your advice, people? Do I give reasons? I don't want to get into any sort of dialogue whatsoever, I'm not the slightest bit interested in reconciliation because I don't trust her, I don't believe she's capable of change and above all I won't risk it because of my children. So I'm not interested in making her aware of the abuse or hearing her side - like we say, don't try and reason with the batshit, right? But I'm wondering whether including a couple of examples of the abuse will make more sense e.g. to the flying monkeys or the police or other authorities if it once comes to that?

Do you mean giving reasons to your mother, too much? I'd say entirely down to whether you feel you need to for your own sake. If you meant telling the relative why you've ceased contact - it would be kind, and it would also be kind to ask whether they really want a reason, given that the information will expose them to your mother's wailing & gnashing of teeth.

Others may have different opinions but, for what it's worth, here's mine. No. Give a blanket 'reason', such as "I'm Xty years old and that's been long enough to realise Mum and I will never see things the same way. I don't want to 'try' any more. I trust you, Relative, to respect this."

Great posts fusion and rumbling. Posting and running as usual but couldn't have articulated it so well, so thanks. YY to a new thread called You can't communicate with batshit.

Too much, can you just say no? If the relative is asking for your number to give her, that implies a desire to mediate, but is after all just a request for a number. Would it be possible just to say, 'No, I'd rather not, the reason I changed it was so as to avoid getting a call from her, so it doesn't really make sense for you to pass it on.' I have sometimes found it helps to meet invitations to argue with flat answers to the questions that were actually asked. (And responsing to accusations/inflammatory statements with 'Sorry, what was the question?')

TooMuch, how about ....

"Thanks for your message xxx, nice to hear from you. Actually I'd prefer you not to pass on my details thanks, and though I understand why you've been in touch over it, I don't want you to end up in the middle of things. Hope you're all keeping well though? Much love from all in the toomuchtooold household xx"

Can you block your mum's number etc too?

Ah! meant to refresh rather than post as I've had the screen open too long and others have replied as I thought they would, sorry GarlicShake's probably right

She won't have told him we're not in contact - she's a covert narc, she'll be letting on she lost my number. (I never gave it, or my address, to her when we moved house 8 months ago). I just said thanks for messaging, I'll get in touch with her - and then I wrote and sent a "no contact" letter which probably had more detail in it than it needed but at least if she des show it to family/unleash the flying monkeys my behaviour will look rational by normal people standards, IYKWIM? Like, normal people don't know there's no point communicating with the batshit, so if I don't give reasons, they can interpret it like "poor toomum, she cut her off without even a reason!"

I'm prepared for becoming the family outcast though - I've no doubt she'll say anything she can to blacken my name if any of this comes out. It's fine, I'm not close to any of the family anyway (we never were when I was a kid), my two favourite people both died already...

What is a "covert narc"? Is she a secret stool pigeon?

covert narcissist.

Toomuch, just give her a number. Like any number, change a couple of digits on yours.

Just created a new thread, come aboard, me hearties!

Linky link link link

Related but tangentially, did any of you see Happy Valley? Spoilers follow.

No, but has anyone been following The Bridge (the proper scandanavian one, not the cringey english adaptation) - JESUS H. CHRIST Saga's mother!!! The way the actress played how Saga feels around her mother is exact how I feel around mine! I couldn't believe it when I was watching it, y'know when you realise "oh my god, it's not just me!"

Link to new thread?

THanks fusion

Yes my parents have been trying to convince me for years that living with a violent alcoholic in fear of his mood whenever he gets home is normal - is it fuck!

Just had a chance to read back carefully and can only apologise to Kenneth for appearing to ignore your posts! What an awful thing for your MIL to have done, but agree that she probably did time it on purpose, because she thought you would be too vulnerable to fight back at that point, so she would "win". Glad it bacfired on her, but so sorry that it had such a profound impact on you.
I suspect the reason you feel it so much is the injustice aspect - on a personal level, I can't bear injustice, more than almost anything - and that would grate horribly.

Re. My earlier post and run post, it was, I suppose, to show the "next generation" of EP-to-be. Friend's sister is likely to be fucking up her 2 DC with her bizarre antics, and already confides too much in them in terms of how SHE feels about all the people who "let her down", including their father. So they're caught up in the middle of their parents' fights, which isn't good for them.
I see Nina's posts have now all gone, probabl just as well for the wellbeing of any future readers of this thread!
Heading to the new thread now, love the title and the phrase - excellent post by rumbling back there too.

Thumbwitches, absolutely no need to apologise! Thank you for your response. Definitely the injustice rankling. Still makes the red mist descend occasionally now!

That's terribly sad re your friend's DC. I hope she can find a way to change her behaviour before it ruins their relationships with her. Sadly though I suspect the batshit will prove difficult to break through.

This is getting nobody anywhere, Arrrrrggggg!

Eh Amanddon? (Wrong thread?)

I meant to say, be proud, never answer the call (that will never come) and have a think about why they hurt you, instead of feeling awkward about them.EC have a right to feel sad, guilty, and free.

... What? Which post are you replying to? (Also we've all moved to a new thread - link above!)