This is really chilling, I think

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Namechanged for this, as potentially too identifiable to FOO stalkers.

I am NC with FOO, for a variety of reasons, none of which I particularly want to rehash here. Occasionally I lurk on a FB forum for parents of estranged adult children, because I find it morbidly fascinating and actually quite validating to observe just HOW bonkers the mindset is.

Today I found this post on there, which sent shivers down my back because it is SO similar to the kind of thing my NMother has sent to me:

The last time I wrote my daughter...a few years ago, I stated the following: "When a person is charged with a crime, the accused is presented with a list of grievances. As your mother, I feel I am entitled to no less a list of grievances in support of your claims of hatred towards me." I've never received a reply, because she has none. We as parents shouldn't accept responsibility for our adult children's short-sightedness and bad behavior.

As ever, it's much easier to see the crazy when it's not your own personal situation being hashed out, but OMG at the demand that the adult child justifies her emotions with a bullet-pointed list of grievances before there can be any question of her being permitted to feel her own feelings. And these people wonder why they are estranged. You'd think round about the time you wrote about your entitlement to a list of grievances to support your child's claims of hatred towards you, you might get a glimmer of realisation about why your adult dc didn't want to be around you. But apparently not.

*She's secretive about things that nobody cares about and expected me to be in on it when it came to keeping random facts from other people.

Like "don't tell your best friends mum about the new garden furniture"
"what about when she calls over? won't she see it?"
"I don't want them knowing our business!"
"why would they be interested in our garden furniture anyway?"
"I don't want them knowing, you have no right to tell them what I spend my money on that's my business"*

This is EXACTLY my sister. She is an odd personality in many ways, very abusive to me but at times kind. the only way I found to deal with her was to just give in - pointless to have an opinion other than hers as it will be a stick to beat you with - but also difficult because the opinion could change in 20 seconds and you have to keep up.

I once called her to tell her my scan showed probably a girl (I already had children of each sex so wasn't particularly bothered). When I wouldn't promise to keep this information a dead secret from everyone else, it ended up with her screaming at me how stupid I was to tell people it was probably a girl. What would they think if it wasn't? everyone would say I didn't want it? It is none of their business.

I think it is weird control thing for her - she has to be in control of everything and she also views the rest of the world as the enemy out to get her. 2 of her children seem unaffected by her but I can see one badly affected (and also, unfortunately, quite like her).

I've managed to cobble together a relationship with her (sadly, I am probably the only person other than her husband truly close to her) but it doesn't allow me to be myself in any way and I feel sad for her sometimes that she doesn't know what it is to just like and enjoy other people for exactly who they are.

There is an easier way to get all posts removed - deregister and ask MNHQ to remove all your posts. I know of several people who have done that, quite a few after Jeffreygate. Might be an idea for Nina.

Liz - I know I'm banging my vitamin D drum again but do consider it, it could help :)

Misc - so sorry about your work situation! Really well done for atanding up to it though, brilliant - and I suggest, if you can, that you use her law-breaking activities against her, either by telling HR (assuming she doesn't work in HR herself) or by going to the next line manager up and asking in innocence if XYZ is allowed now, as you thought it was againt the law?

Hope that everyone is ok - I know this is an open forum and anyone is allowed to post anywhere, but it really is the height of bad netiquette to storm into a sensitive thread, not bother to read any of it, and then tell people that they should "try harder" to maintain relations with their EPs. Appallingly rude. to anyone affected by the Stormtrooper!

"This is EXACTLY my sister. " Was avoiding saying same as people rarely discuss toxic sibs and dont want to be outed!

My sister lies about EVERYTHING I mean seriously trivial shit like what cereal she had for breakfast! (Mainly in a one upmanship way eg 'organic home made muesli with almond milk' when she actually finished off the kids frosties!) I don't get it, shell tell different lies to different people (thereby increasing the chance of getting caught out - what does that get for her?)

I was discussing her primarily with my friend, in my disclosure. She's never been able to hold down a job, relationship, friendship anything. Her kids are not yet high school age and already reluctant to have friends around and pulling away from her. She's insulted, berated, hurt and physically assaulted me. This is my 3rd time NC it will be the last.

Misc- if you have to have another meeting with her then insist on taking someone with you to 'take notes' (witness). you are entitled to this. You can walk out of the meeting if she refuses.

If that is not possible (for you, not her) ask for the meeting to be recorded on your phone so there are no 'misunderstandings later' if she refuses then refuse the meeting until someone can come and take notes.

Another tactic is if she yelled at you the last meeting and if she goes to shuts the door, insist on leaving it open. If she says no, stand in the doorway and say loudly 'why don't you want the door open? Is it so you can yell at me again like you did last meeting?'

I understand the long term crippling effect our parents can have on us, even when they are no longer in ours lives. I hope it works out for you. X

screenshot
she would try to tell me hugely personal/private things about her friends and family, some things that were not appropriate for me to know (i.e. maybe not age appropriate for me, or else told to her in confidence

Oh yes this exactly. Lots of age inappropriate stuff, and also lots of personal stuff about my cousins that had been shared in confidence by my aunties. Looking back, I wonder what she shared about me in return, as anything I had resembling a life was conducted in secret.

Liz, - on the blood samples, just a small practical thing - it may be possible or actually required that you get them done by the phlebotomist at your local hospital. They're usually tons better than the GP's practice nurse as they do them all day every day.

Recording the meeting is a brilliant idea from Aussie.

And yy to TooMuch about the nurses at the hospital if possible Liz; if not, ask to lie down, look up at a wall and take slow deep breaths in through nose, out slowly through mouth; afterwards make sure you take your time sitting back up. Take some water with you as well. They'll be used to nerves and it's never as bad as you anticipate it to be.

Oh the lying thing .... I'm at the memory, but I once told a neighbour straight-out the sort of things my mum had been saying behind her back. Very complicated to explain exact situation without outing myself, but needless to say Mum was furious and still quotes it as me being indiscreet, 20ish years later. She'd been telling everyone this stuff though - other neighbours, the church, on and on. I was a teen and knew it was a stupid thing to do as it would hurt the other woman's feelings, but I thought she should know so she could fix it, so blurted it right out. Punished for weeks and neighbour was always rude to me afterwards but super-friendly with mum.

I still regret the way I did it and it's takes years for me to learn there's a spectrum between "telling the truth relentlessly at all times so I'm not like my mum" and "having social graces so I'm not a total bitch".

*it's taken. Bloody phone.

Oh I am not nervous about needles. Just inexperienced people leaving me with bruises all over my arms and one time my hands too. It is painful to have multiple attempts everywhere and wiggling the needle under. Ridiculous really.

Another snub from a wider family event again today. She must really be doing a number on me. It really fucking hurts. I am furious at the injustice.

Oh I see - I found telling them to tighten the bloody band up helped there, even to the point of pain (that's what they do in hospitals, but at the doctors she may as well have lightly caressed my arm the first time she tried it and I came away v bruised!)

s on the current wave of attacks - that feeling of injustice is the worst, knowing that you'll never get that sort of fairytale moment where you tell your side and everyone recognises what's really been going on and apologises. Even after they know they can side with the abuser because it fits easier into their lives (thinking about it, that's what that neighbour did to me all those years ago).

You are totally right. Its just easier to accept her version, en masse, than question it and find oneself cast out.

I am unfollowing a lot of people on facebook. I can't unfriend as I won't do anything that can even hint that I am walking away from them all. That would just play right into her hands. But it is too painful to be seeing it constantly. These are people who have hardly anything to do with her, and she is never done bitching about them.

Once you said that to your neighbour it was YOUR behaviour that was immediately scrutinised. What came before means nothing. And sadly the neighbour hasn't bothered to think past that at all.

De-following is a good idea! I put them all on a new separate FB account and only log in periodically. My mum LIVES for Facebook and still pesters me to go on it and like her endless stream of selfies photos there. My other "secret" account is my real one.

It's a bit like the Mean Girls dynamic isn't it? They know she's the bully but would rather be on her side.

The two weirdly lying & secretive sisters above sound deeply traumatised. I'm not pretending to know (or care) why or how - but it's hypervigilant behaviour. Neither am I suggesting there's anything you could do about it; that has to come from them if they find the motivation. Just thought it might be vaguely helpful to remark that random fibbing like this cannot possibly be intended to systematically deceive you.

I used to lie about various pointless stuff - nowhere near as much as those two, but still a bit odd! It came from a set of fears, not a single belief. When I decided to stop, I had to spend a couple of years saying "I was lying about that, sorry". Funnily enough, no-one cared!

I'm glad Nina's stopped posting. There are discrepancies in her ubiquitous writings - which might reflect her progress through self-empowerment, I don't know - but her behaviour here was inappropriate.

Misc, I have seen your other threads and am sorry for everything you have to cope with. Checking up on your rights & protections can't do any harm, and may well help you feel stronger. Have you phoned the ACAS helpline? They're very clued up and can also signpost you to further support.

Thanks for yesterday's support, I will reply properly but I couldn't read the other stuff happening on here as was a bit of a replay over some of the dynamics I was crying over. A sort of action replay lite moment!

Anyway I will re read the posts properly later when I can face it (after a coffee) and skip over the other stuff to get to posts from Merd and Garlic and Thumb etc.

Btw yup someone guessed what team she's in, and beyond that she's the head. So there's no official channels internally.

And I'm wary of giving more details as she'd delight in my 'wrongdoing' by sharing this. But it's one of those 'who guards the guards'/ who watches the watchmen type of thing.

I just realized aunt the term triangulation applies here? One of the massive problems is that I have no voice as everything goes through her. So her ignorance (?), ignoring of legislation and no acknowledgement of the duties of an employer are really effecting everything. People depend on what she's telling them, and she's grossly misrepresenting the situation. Leading others into making bad decisions. Leading others into viewing me badly too. Trashing my reputation.

And for certain highly identifiable reasons I can't walk away. Hence the having to engage. But if I can succeed in this stuff (just enough, not completely, I'm realistic sadly) I won't have to engage with her again like this for ages, may indefinitely?

So I guess overcoming this situation would give me the prize of freedom from her.

I did have someone with me! And it didn't stop her from behaving in this manner. Which is quite shocking really. It did help me see how appallingly she was behaving though, as I could keep a bit more of an independent perspective, though I still got sucked in more than I could cope with.

It's also helped as my friend has been able to confirm for me what really happened and that I wasn't the one behaving badly. That's been good, as i doubt myself and what really happened as this woman doesn't stick to the truth and she's very convincing.

All of which makes me think that no, abusive people don't just reserve this behavior for their children. Just anyone they feel they can pick on, that they can play out their disgusting power, control and blame tactics. And she's really gunning for me. Which is terrifying. She's highly competitive and appears to enjoy beating people, not working with people. And I feel at such a disadvantage as she gains strength and gets a kick out of these awful confrontations, and I find them mentally and emotionally draining, injured by them.

I'm terrified of what happens next. I think she'll wait to find a moment when I'm not protected by a friend.

Sorry there was a random word in that post 'aunt' really doesn't come into it!

Ahhhh. Sorry about that, Misc, what an utter arse of a situation. :(

Another snub from a wider family event again today. She must really be doing a number on me. It really fucking hurts. I am furious at the injustice.

Me, I'm just fucking disappointed that the people buying her hard done by mother story have such short memories because the ones who are glued to her side and distancing themselves from me now have had her turn on them in the past. They know what she's like so how can they believe the bullshit! They've been catastrophically bullshitted about by her in the past, they've been isolated from the rest of the family from her in the past. I have in the past refused to freeze out people just because they're my mother's latest target in the past and they poured their hearts out to me so I'm just disappointed that they're so glad to be "in" now that they have forgotten all of that.

It's a bit like the Mean Girls dynamic isn't it? They know she's the bully but would rather be on her side yeah, but it's still really disappointing that the very people who took DH aside when we got engaged and warned him to give my mother a wide berth if we are to stand a chance of happiness in life, are the very ones who are now happily being used against me.

Rumbling, anger is at the core of most people's problems. It starts wars for starters. Anger achieves nothing
FEAR starts wars, makes people compliant in genocide & suppression, keeps victims down.
ANGER starts revolutions, builds trade unions, over throws corruption.
Anger is he healthier emotion that comes when you put yourself in a position of not having to be act out of fear any more

I still regret the way I did it and it's takes years for me to learn there's a spectrum between "telling the truth relentlessly at all times so I'm not like my mum" and "having social graces so I'm not a total bitch"
Yeah, me too, I think its very important to not let a toxic mother dictate your behaviour by always being deliberately the opposite of her, being too far either way isn't good

p.s. That sounds like I want people in the family to take my side , I don't! I would rather they weren't involved at all! I just wish they could be left out of it completely and allowed to be neutral, but they're not, they're being placed in the centre of it and used as pawns and that's what disappoints me so much.

Once I went NC my mother wrote beautiful letters about "reconnecting" to family members who in the past she had nothing to do with but I had always mentained a relationship with. It's like playground games! We're not "best friends" now so she's running around at lunch time trying to get everyone on "her side", even people she doesn't like at all!

And what disappoints me is that nobody is saying "screens mother, I'ld rather stay out of it because I'm in touch with you both"
no, they're all "really, you poor poor thing, of course you were a good mother, she cut you out over that, how stubborn!"
(There was no one event that made me go NC! But in her narative we had a row over something trivial and I'm "punishing" her for it)

I guess people just love gossip so much they don't care if it's true!
And they're not getting any from me, I'm not running around trying to get people on my side so they're lapping it up from her which is just really disappointing behaviour from people I've always cared about

Oh, woah, every time I stay off MN for a day or two, this thread goes mad again... Thank you to all who were so patient and articulate over the last 200 or so posts, not sure I could have managed that. Great posts RumblingDM, Screen, Garlic and others. for Liz, Misc, Nina's dd and anyone else who is struggling atm, which I think is a few of us. Am I alone in finding obtuse, circular arguments with top notes of lofty patronage just too close to home?

Not alone, Lupo

I noticed I'd adopted my go-to defence of surgically analysing provocative statements and exploring the unstated background (with a helpful real name in this case.) By the time I went to bed, I'd surgically analysed my own response and given that up!

Narcynarcnarcnutternarc

I am sat here like a nodding dog at your posts Screen. They could be about my situation just as they are about yours.

DH keeps coming back to the fact that my aunt was on the receiving end of my mother only a few years ago. It was a huge thing. Now forgotten.

And they're not getting any from me, I'm not running around trying to get people on my side so they're lapping it up from her sad which is just really disappointing behaviour from people I've always cared about

Absolutely this. None of my so called family have approached me and eve asked for my side of the story. I guess I am not worth that. I am trouble. I am abusive. I am this and that and the other. Whatever.

My cousin, who is 14, messaged me to say she was still speaking to me. And that this family confuses her. She is of the opinion that her mum is still speaking to me also. I guess if she saw me in the street she would say hello. Eh? That counts as "speaking" now?!

I guess if she saw me in the street she would say hello

This part was in reference to my aunt. When I read it back it wasn't clear.

Yes Liz, same, my relatives are under the impression that my mother is "offering olive branches" and I'm refusing to make peace.

She's offering brambles not olive branches.