This is really chilling, I think

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Namechanged for this, as potentially too identifiable to FOO stalkers.

I am NC with FOO, for a variety of reasons, none of which I particularly want to rehash here. Occasionally I lurk on a FB forum for parents of estranged adult children, because I find it morbidly fascinating and actually quite validating to observe just HOW bonkers the mindset is.

Today I found this post on there, which sent shivers down my back because it is SO similar to the kind of thing my NMother has sent to me:

The last time I wrote my daughter...a few years ago, I stated the following: "When a person is charged with a crime, the accused is presented with a list of grievances. As your mother, I feel I am entitled to no less a list of grievances in support of your claims of hatred towards me." I've never received a reply, because she has none. We as parents shouldn't accept responsibility for our adult children's short-sightedness and bad behavior.

As ever, it's much easier to see the crazy when it's not your own personal situation being hashed out, but OMG at the demand that the adult child justifies her emotions with a bullet-pointed list of grievances before there can be any question of her being permitted to feel her own feelings. And these people wonder why they are estranged. You'd think round about the time you wrote about your entitlement to a list of grievances to support your child's claims of hatred towards you, you might get a glimmer of realisation about why your adult dc didn't want to be around you. But apparently not.

Garlic, what a lovely video

or, you don't reply straight away and "you're a shit daughter because you don't meet my emotional needs - I expect you to be my companion even though I'm also saying you're a shit person and I don't see any reason why the two should be mutually exclusive

I saw a thread this evening where the OP's experiencing exactly this from her father! It reminded me of my dad yelling "Stand still and look interested while I'm telling you off!" Which would be slightly amusing if he hadn't been purple in the face and thumping me across the head to emphasise his words.

hmm, I've had that so many times, being told what an awful awful person I am, but if I suggest we abandon our outting or suggest maybe she should leave if she thinks I'm that awful, then I'm being dramatic, hysterical, and I'm ruining the outting by not trotting along whilst being told what awful company I am.

Surely, if I really was awful company, she'ld want to leave or go out separate ways wherever we were?

I thought I had seen that exact same post here on Mumsnet, it was a guest blogger. Maybe I'm wrong.

I realised recently that I'm sort of accidentally NC with my 'D'M. I hadn't even thought of it as NC until I saw these threads come up. I think a lot of women like my DM use the silent treatment as part of their abuse. I can actually hear her voice in the (very) small handful of bitter posters on that gransnet thread, who have 'no idea' why their AC aren't speaking to them.

There was a particularly distressful and long running situation recently in my FOO and all during this time my DM would give me the silent treatment and make up nasty lies about me behind my back (and not only me). Luckily (if that's the word) what she said came back to me.

During one very upsetting ignoring episode she dragged my adult DC into it in a particularly sick way. They were really distressed, and when she deigned to return my calls again I realised that I was physically incapable of picking up the phone and speaking to her. I still haven't answered her and cannot think of even one word to say to her. Needless to say I also received the obligatory vicious letter. I was very grateful to mumsnetters as it followed the script so I was actually expecting it!

The trouble is she just cannot behave any other way and her ultimate goal is for nobody to speak to me and turn my own DC against me. I genuinely feel sick if I hear her voice or any post/email comes from her.

Back to the silent treatment - NC really is just a logical outcome for people who use this as a weapon. They are so used to getting away with silent treatment (and they like to do it in a REALLY obvious way lol), that they never consider that one day people might not come running gratefully back to them. I'm pretty sure many people who are NC with DPs or DPILs have also got there accidentally so to speak.

I do feel sad for the lovely gransnetters who are NC through no fault of their own. They are notably distressed and sad and trying to find a way to cope with NC. Any of our own DC could end up with abusive partners and get cut off from family and friends.

yeah it's the same with my NC really.. my mother runs hot and cold with people.. she shouldn't be surprised that it'll get to a point when someone might not be interested in being briefly "in" with her again after a blow-up!

My heart goes out to the gransnetters who go on that support thread out of genuine sounding sadness and a desire to understand! they don't last long do they? Any of the EGPs who are trying to have any insight into the situation are a threat to the regulars

^^Sorry I don't know why I said a lot of women like my mum, obviously men do it too.

Oh it just struck me - I wonder if any of the grans estrangements are in fact down to something their husbands or other AC have done. One of the things I find noticeable about the bitter gran posters is that there is absolutely no in-depth research going on.

Yolly, yup, we've had that on here, the EGP who knows all about abuse because of her abusive ex, but can't see why her EAC might need to remove themselves from the family!

Hello, just jumping in to say that what you are talking about the EPs doing is what my therapist called emotional reasoning. He sent me copies of "thinking errors" from this book www.amazon.co.uk/Brilliant-Cognitive-Behavioural-Therapy-Lifeskills/dp/0273724908/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1464294982&sr=1-1&keywords=brilliant+cognitive+behavioural+therapy#reader_0273724908 which were really interesting, not least because my mother does all the seven thinking errors.

Screenshotting - interesting! Is that on this thread?

To me it also looks as though the bitter EPs, have no understanding that being a mother to someone is totally different to being a child to someone. I really believe it is down to us parents to adjust to them growing up and work with them accordingly. Anything else leads to disappointment.

My AC all have different personalities and each stage of life brings a change to my relationship with each of them. For instance at the moment one likes to spend a fair bit of time with me, ask me for advice and keep in touch a lot if they are away. Another likes a lot of chat about the meaning of life/politics etc and when they are away contacts me maybe once a week or less. Another just likes to joke about and have a laugh when they are here but when they are away I never hear a word! I always know when one of them has a girlfriend because I get something girly for my birthday. That is what they are all like AT THE MOMENT. It has been different before ie one AC always introduces me to new partners straight away, and another AC might never bother.

I know it will all change again as they get even older, maybe move further away, live with partners, have DCs, or get busier jobs. I believe it's my job to adjust to all that and have a word with myself when I'm upset - not to take it out on them.

When I look at people like my DM, there is no flexibility of thinking whatsoever. They expect their DC to be who they want them to be, and to do what they want them to do from the minute they are born.

Heh, Good, I took my mum on a course to learn this :) Okay, only the parts she can accept filtered through - but some of it did!

I meant to post these here for anyone that might like them. It feels a bit like plonking them down at this point in the thread, but since I keep forgetting, here they are.

vimeo.com/153483613

I just wanted to thank you all ( well, nearly all) so much for the insightful analysis and links in this thread. I am NC with narc MIL, LC with narc DF and NC with narc DGM (mothers side).

I was playing bingo with the issendai blog's reasons EPs give for the EC's behaviour, and the reasons / posts of a previous poster on here - almost every single one was referenced. I'd laugh, if it weren't for the fact it may have been my MIL. I applaud you all for your restrained responses and for anyone she caused upset to. It upset me.

I've wanted to post an AIBU about my MILs behaviour which led to NC for a long while but I've been too scared of being blamed and been feeling too guilty. Its taken until reading this thread to realise that actually, I (and DH) have more than enough sound, sensible reasons to have taken the action we did. And that her response to it has been, well, batshit.

My MIL decided to go NC with us 10 days after our DD was born. DH and I had been trying to set boundaries with MIL for months, only to receive tantrums, hysteria and ignoring. When I had DD, we still had received no positive acknowledgement of our issue (stated multiple times by DH verbally) and I had been on the receiving end of snubs and hideous birth horror stories during our last visit (I was 32 weeks).

When we phoned her to tell her DD was born, she didn't even congratulate me, and immediately handed the phone over to someone else (this was intended to make a point I think, as this person was involved / a subject of the boundaries we had been trying to set).

In desperation to know where we stood, I wrote her an email, restating as kindly but firmly as possible, our reasons and position. DH sent it. I was shocked, post birth (fairly traumatic one) and now on the end of a barrage of lies, twisted accusations and emotional blackmail. I was, according to MIL, controlling DH, bullying the family member by setting this boundary, I was insane, she'd done so much for DH and he owed her (in reality she was outright abusive and neglectful to him as a child, much of which I've only found out since going NC with her, while utterly smothering and controlling when she did deign to parent him), the whole nine yards. She pulled all of DHs family into it, including his GM (also very poor parenting skills, narc traits) but whom he adored and who raised him while MIL abandoned him. In fact, MIL chose her to deliver her abuse of me, to DH, which caused him the maximum pain possible. We have recovered one family relationship but have been NC with the rest of the family, including DHs GM, since.

It was months before I could sleep without reliving it. I was so stressed my milk dried up, my DD was a tricky feeder too, and I couldn't eat. I was constantly guilty at having caused this for my DH (even though he had been the one to suggest setting this boundary in the first place). I was even more guilty at being unable to control my response to this, and being unable to feed my child. (I still haven't forgiven myself completely for the last two.)

Now, three years on, she has never met her DGD and never will. She has caused my DH horrendous damage, which he had only started to realise since going NC with her, but he is finally taking steps to heal himself, and our marriage.

I will never forgive her for overshadowing the first months of my DDs life. (Or myself for letting her.) Especially as we had given her months to make a decision about whether to accept our boundary or not. The timing of all this was entirely deliberate, IMO.

She is almost certainly on one of these forums, spouting her bile about my behaviour, as we speak...

ComeOnKenneth. Your DH is incredibly lucky to have your support.

You have many years ahead with your little girl - you may have "let" your MIL overshadow those few months, but you're not going to let her overshadow your daughter's entire life. That's THE most important thing

(By "let" by the way, I doubt you had a real choice - you were clearly in a power struggle without even knowing it by daring to have a child with your DH, and it's definitely not your fault about stress/feeding etc - but I get what you mean, and don't mean to just shrug that off...)

Merd, thank you. You're the first person to say such supportive things to me. the very few people we have told this to really haven't got this at all, and more often than a not have given me the "how can you let this happen?" Or " you only have one family, what are you going to do to make it right?" response. PPs are absolutely right when they say that this is a taboo subject. I am so glad I have found people who get this and that I'm not alone. More than anything else, this tells me that this is not as rare as I thought, therefore I'm maybe not the unreasonable one.

It's also reassuring ( in a weird way) that the script of EPs is so familiar. It makes it so much less personal, and so I can start to distance myself from it much more.

I'm so sorry for all the horrible things everyone here has been through. But I can say that, despite the damage they may have done, your EPs have also had the effect of making you wise, strong and brave. Something of a silver lining, I hope.

Sorry, that's not to give the EPs any credit: you're wise and strong and brave in spite of them, but because of the experiences you've overcome. Phrased that poorly, sorry!

And yes, you're absolutely right about the power struggle, Merd. My DH was the GC. He's now disinherited, I'm fairly sure. The SG, his DS, is now firmly back in favour. Makes not a jot of difference - and cheap at the price for ensuring DD has no contact with MIL.

Oh, Kenneth, what a needlessly painful time that was. It's so good to hear you & DH are recovering now you've removed the stressors (or had them removed, fortuitously). I reckon you're right; the timing was deliberate. You were already in physical & emotional shock, DH was adjusting to massive changes in your lives, and there's an entire history & mythology of your family around you to negotiate. She couldn't have picked a better time to 'win'.

When a significant family member chooses to make relationships a battleground, it's confusing. You can be as aware as all get-out that they're using fear, obligation and guilt against you - but they're powerful weapons! You can get torn between logic and atavistic respect for family connections. You both did incredibly well to resist.

I am sorry it hurt you so much and so deeply. Please do appreciate this was done to you. It wasn't your choice, and you did not fail - look at how much better you're all doing now. Keep recovering and enjoying DD :)

Cross-posted, Kenneth! Yes, cheap at any price tbh.

It isn't very unusual. According to Standalone, 1 in 5 families in the UK will be affected by estrangement and over 5 million people have decided to cut contact with at least one family member.

ComeOnKenneth - I'm so sorry all this happened around the birth of your DD, I still remember how vulnerable I felt during my pregnancies and for a long time after. Please don't feel bad about how your MIL made you feel and your milk drying up. So many of us know exactly how ill people like her can make you. In fact the first time I found Mumsnet was through a thread entitled something like 'Help I feel physically sick when my DM phones'!

You are sparing your own little family years of upset by standing up to MIL now. Be proud you are protecting your little DD from her. I remember pre-DC thinking the problem with my DM was just between her and me. I naively thought grandparents loved their GCs unconditionally and my having children would bring us together in some way. Sadly it doesn't go that way, the GCs are just more fodder for a narcs games. Such as having golden children, scapegoat swithin their AC's families, then expanding to setting cousins off against each other. Plus the narc trying to turn their GC against their own parent/s (the narcs AC), never mind the wider family circle.

Your DH sounds fab to be able to stand up to them so firmly with you, it's not easily done x

Garlic, I've read your posts on other threads and they are ace. Thank you for your words.

You've hit the nail on the head completely. Given my own family (DF and DGM) I recognised from the off the same traits in my MIL. Despite this, and having dealt with some outrageous behaviour from her throughout mine and DHs relationship until this point, I was absolutely rocked by this. I still can't quite wrap my head around it.

The irony is that despite on one level recognising her toxic nature, I'd been somewhat fighting for DHs sake to keep the relationship going, by ignoring her behaviour, rising above and attempting to set the occasional boundary, at DHs request (over our wedding, in the main). I'd spoken to DH and offered him my support, told him I'd back him up whatever he wanted to do. I'd explained why she was doing what she was and - while not excusing it in the slightest - thought of strategies for us both to handle her and still remain in contact with her. DH at that stage was still largely oblivious to the dynamics - well, not their impact, but he didn't analyse it, if you know what I mean (she taught him well!) and was all for just going NC before we married. I talked him out of it 3 weeks before our wedding. So It was a bit bloody much to then hear that I was the reason for her estrangement fromher son, and that this had been my game plan all along!

I'm still unsure why it did / does hurt so much. But you're right, we are so much better off without her. And I'm forever grateful my DD will not have to suffer her. I believe my DH is happier too, although he still mimics some of her behaviour ( the main reason our marriage hasn't been plain sailing really). But we are finally starting to realise we can address this, together.

Just looked back - GarlicShake thank you for the breathing exercise and GoodLove for the thinking errors, have saved both.

Thank you, both!

I'm not sure if I can say it here, but think there is someone with a strange agenda on the gransnet thread, does anyone know what I mean? I think caution is needed there, not to be falling into any traps.

Yolly, you're so right re: GC used as weapons.. Mil has form for screwing with GCs already, which was in fact partly to do with the boundary we had been trying to set with her.

MIL applied for and won parental rights over her eldest GC, SIL's first child, and is busy screwing her up completely. DNiece has no contact with her dad and minimal contact with her mum or siblings and AFAIK has never been told why.

Meanwhile, MIL scapegoats her other GC, while shaming, controlling, infantilising and encouraging eldest GC to copy her behaviour. As a result, DNiece has no boundaries, is rude, intrusive, attention seeking, and interfering, especially with other children. She also has no friends or social skills MIL uses her as a weapon to ride straight over other people, DNiece is never told why and it's heartbreaking to see her confusion when people react to it as she's been told that's how she should behave.

Mil tries to force her into every single interaction, making her the centre of everything. Must be so much pressure for her.

I think our DD would have been scapegoated. And I'm 100% certain MIL would have bad mouthed me to her, and done her usual pushy, controlling stuff to her. My DD is very sensitive and reserved. She'd have hated this.

Yes, it was very brave of DH to stand up to her. Mind you, he would never stand for anyone hurting DD - and although he hadn't thought about protecting himself at that point, he had clearly thought about protecting her, even before she was born.

Am still slightly concerned at how he's dealing with it though - or not. It's as if he's been on emotional lockdown about it since it happened. Mind you, he's had excellent training in that. Any ideas how I could help him?

yeah, or, you don't reply straight away and "you're a shit daughter because you don't meet my emotional needs and I expect you to be my companion even though I'm also saying you're a shit person

Aaagh! This is my story exactly. My mother would call my mobile in work hours and leave a voicemail saying 'nothing urgent, I'll call some other time', and would then proceed to call every hour, then every half hour, then she'd add in the landline, DP's work, DP's work mobile, DP's work mobile every 3 minutes, far-flung siblings, etc etc. Originally, I'd assume by call 3 that something urgent was happening but realised pretty soon it never was, so would just ignore until it was convenient. By the time I went NC, I would dread dealing with her so much I'd leave it most of the day to get back to her (still hardly a mammoth time lapse!) and by the end she'd be hyperventilating down the phone at some random family member about how I must obviously be in a mangled heap on the motorway because otherwise there was no reasonable explanation for why I hadn't been in touch yet. Just too exhausting for words. For years I would just act like this was completely normal because I couldn't face calling her out on it, and when I finally did the scale of the shitstorm that ensued was beyond extraordinary.

for you Kenneth for standing up for your family, especially at a very vulnerable time. I think the birth of grandchildren is classic for toxic behaviour to step up and get out of hand, and also is a time when adult children finally start to have the scales fall from their eyes, which makes it a very volatile time. I remember my MIL, who is not a narc but has some control and boundary issues, suddenly behaving very melodramatically when DS1 was born. It sounds very hard for you and your DH.