This is really chilling, I think

[404NotFound]

Namechanged for this, as potentially too identifiable to FOO stalkers.

I am NC with FOO, for a variety of reasons, none of which I particularly want to rehash here. Occasionally I lurk on a FB forum for parents of estranged adult children, because I find it morbidly fascinating and actually quite validating to observe just HOW bonkers the mindset is.

Today I found this post on there, which sent shivers down my back because it is SO similar to the kind of thing my NMother has sent to me:

The last time I wrote my daughter...a few years ago, I stated the following: "When a person is charged with a crime, the accused is presented with a list of grievances. As your mother, I feel I am entitled to no less a list of grievances in support of your claims of hatred towards me." I've never received a reply, because she has none. We as parents shouldn't accept responsibility for our adult children's short-sightedness and bad behavior.

As ever, it's much easier to see the crazy when it's not your own personal situation being hashed out, but OMG at the demand that the adult child justifies her emotions with a bullet-pointed list of grievances before there can be any question of her being permitted to feel her own feelings. And these people wonder why they are estranged. You'd think round about the time you wrote about your entitlement to a list of grievances to support your child's claims of hatred towards you, you might get a glimmer of realisation about why your adult dc didn't want to be around you. But apparently not.

Merd hope you do have the joy of parenthood, but you should be aware that becoming a parent makes these parents seem even more batshit! You notice stuff you hadn't before.

Oh god yes! My dp used to say things like, "You'll understand once you have children". In fact as my dc grew older I understood less and less. I think as you make your own parenting decisions, you see very starkly the contrast between what your parents did and what you would choose to do with your own children, and that gulf of non-comprehension just widens as they grow and get more independent.

Not dp", ep*, the estranged parent.

My GP (GM, I think GF just followed along) started sending me frequent guilt letters which were really attacks on my DF by proxy after about 8 years NC and I went to University so was for the first time accessible to them. They were not subtle, the whole point of writing to me was to try and get what they wanted, which was me to reply to them that yes, wasn't my DF mean and unkind and validate how sad they were, while explaining on his behalf why he was NC with them. There was no attempt for any kind of relationship or communication with me as a person. I hated those letters, they made me feel hounded and miserable.

They seemed completely oblivious to the idea that a kid who has seen her parents reduced to tears and made so angry and miserable by people who aren't actually very nice to be around, is going to be powerfully on the side of her parents!

Ah, feck Merd, I didn't think of that. Do you think though they would also automatically expect the GCs to "repay" any money/ gifts in visits, calls etc? I would have thought they would, and that the GCs would be quickly overwhelmed with it and want out.

Yes, it is very 'I'll wait a lifetime but one day, vengeance will be miiiiine!'

My mother doesn't try to reach DS by circumventing me, as I think she realises it's never going to happen, but she does a great line in 'waaah I'm stopped from being the wonderful grandma I am'.

And the letter writing urge is there, it's just to me from beyond the grave...

My mother threatens she's written/ is writing a letter 'explaining everything' and 'how much she's done for me' that she's going to leave me to read when she's dead, as some kind of ultimate revenge fantasy.

Whenever she feels she's losing an argument, she drags that one out to cut across whatever crazy illogical debate I've got sucked into (I really should learn to shut the fuck up). She will just change gears and start with this super important letter which will apparently explain everything and show what an awful bitch I've been and what a wonderful yet tragically misunderstood parent she has been.

I think she gets a very unhealthy thrill out of the fantasy of leaving this hand grenade to destroy me after she's gone. Like she's not quite succeeded in her efforts alive so she's insuring she's still got the power reaching from the grave.

Although it's wrapped up in telling 'The Truth' which will make me worship and honour her and feel terribly ashamed of myself... But honestly, can you think of any shocking revelation that could make sense of the unrelenting emotional abuse of a lifetime?

With me as the foul anti-hero scape goat who was blamed from everything that ever happened including parents relationship, money and housing woes, her career failures, her lack of friends, unhappiness etc etc ... Oh yeah, goddamnit those 7 yr old children had way too much power in those days didn't they?! Ahem. And that's not the worst of it but I won't go into that here.

I'm afraid last time when she was mid letter rant I cut across her saying 'thanks for the warning, I won't be reading any letters from you when you're dead, they'll be going straight in the bin unopened and unread'.

It actually stopped her in her tracks as she was so taken aback, I don't think it had occurred to her that I would be the one choosing to open or burn that envelope, not her.

That insight has probably gone though, as denial is rather an ongoing theme.

Yes my father managed to get a letter to me through my ex when I was nc before. 9 a4 pages long! It wasn't read! He now knows it wasn't read so hopefully he won't be so ridiculous in the future

Oh Miscellaneous and Bacony, have we the same parents?

Again, my DM will be sending me a very detailed report of the truth when she dies.

But.....if you had a reasonable argument/secret which explained your behaviour and would allow you to resolve things and see your EGCs, would you not use it while you were alive.......like, to get what you actually want?!

Are the memory boxes then just another narc 'hoovering' tactic? Trying to provoke a reaction via the GCs?

One very interesting question that the posters on the issendai site asked the estranged 'hurting parent' was what outcome was he hoping to achieve? Or what was his preferred outcome? And he just could not answer. It's like he was totally blinded by rage.

I have just caught up. I had to step away from this thread. I have really struggled this week.

Some part of the confusion and hurt (self inflicted IMO but still) on the EP threads really got under my skin, and I often find myself too empathetic, and it was tugging on those strings.

Then I saw my mum, and the next day my aunt. Just in the car. But thoughts of "it can't be this bad" etc were starting to kick in. Perhaps the day that is 1 year from when I last saw them coming up has something to do with this. Like I am facing the permanency of the situation. I don't know. But I have been conflicted, and then I come through it and the anger is still there. So much anger.

Regarding the GC going back to the EGPs. I did that. My DM had estranged from my GM (her MIL) and then when I left home I went to her. Hadn't seen her for 7 years. Showed up on her doorstep and she took me in. Like I mentioned before, I am NC with her now too.

So I basically bounced back and forward between these two toxic situations, always trying to find a foothold, trying to figure this thing out. But both of them were the same level of batshit and I am now left with no one from my FOO at all.

I will get through it.

fusion I am so sorry.

Liz, I was the same with this thread. Hopefully dredging these things up every so often is a good mental process. I think NC is never an easy choice - unlike what GN et al think.

Bacony and 404 yes - I can't imagine how many issues it throws up actually. I looked after a friend's six year old briefly a few weeks ago and thought, when I was your age, my parents told me I would burn in hell if I ever lied to them. I know they did because I had nightmares about it. How could they?! You're so small! And that was just one moment.

Pingpang - Obviously it depends on how emotionally perceptive the kids are. Clearly Bacony's little girl is wise to it (that made me ) and poor rumbling is testimony to another overt rubbish attempt ... but I dare say that some manipulative shits have made some dents in other relationships, and not for those GC's benefit either. I suppose all you can do is raise your kids as best as you can to deal with narcissism when they encounter it elsewhere too! And love them and give them strong inner-confidence of course.

She's not so little she's 5'7

I hope I've raised her to see the batshit for herself.

I think the memory boxes etc are them claiming their side is right without being able to prove it!

The last time I contributed here, I said it was helping (knowing others are going through this). In the end though, it has got a lot worse and bad memories are at the front of my mind.
I identify with so much and miscassort, I get you. Not once, EVER did my mother say I had done well, looked nice etc . No hugs, and blamed for everything. Laughing was an unspoken ban home.
Beyond the grave she did her best to punish me and her GC, and now the thought of her makes me want to scream!
I told you all how she said to me "your name has never been mentioned" and there is some pleasure in knowing that her name is never mentioned now.
The other thread appears to be working things out a little, but I need to stop reading it for my own sanity.
At least my own family are encouraged and hugged, so history is not repeating itself.

This thread. I've never been so simultaneously glad to have found my people, and horrified that others feel the same way. I thought it was just me for such a long time.

I don't post about how I feel, and felt, as a lot of it seems so petty, but I'm glad that there are others on here who are trying to do better than their parents did.

to those in the same shitty club!

Tiggy, it is not just you. Unfortunately our upbringing makes it hard for us to fit in. As a child, I disliked all adults, including my Aunts and Uncles. They seemed to have an attitude towards me (my mum again).
As a teacher in later years, I included her in a community class, because she was retired and moaned about having nothing to do. She gossiped about me to the point I had to exclude her.
It all hit home then, trying to be nice to all the adult famly, sensing they did not like me, because she told them. I was just a little kid, but as an adult I felt embarrassed by her.
Argggg!

A lot of it for me is the lack of ownership for anything they have said or done. I will admit to being 25% responsible for the situation.

I don't answer calls from them and I have been known to hide upstairs if they have called round. I also do not say thankyou for any gifts left on the doorstep. None of these are how I would treat friends.

But they have driven me to this by not respecting my privacy and giving me some space. I had to change the locks as my mother would send my father round while I was at work and he would leave gifts (tat) and passive aggressive notes.

As others have said, if friends treated me like that I would have gone NC about 25 years ago.

Pingpang I think when people family treat you like that they lose the right for you to treat them well. Dp and I have often said to his family, that it's not difficult, we are nice to those that are nice to us... they don't get it, we just don't have an agenda/ulterior motives, unlike them. It's about setting boundaries, sometimes very firmly, so firmly in fact we go nc.

Wow. Thanks for all the flowers, and to all of you too. I can't believe this stuff about the memory boxes... my dad always kept a memory box of my stuff and my mother's that he deemed most special and we are not allowed have them - things like he has all my mum's school stuff, her pictures of friends from university, old letters from friends etc. They have been apart for 26 years and were only married for 14 and he won't let them go, she hasn't the heart to chase him for them.

I talked to her since this thread and she told me when they split the reason it was so "amicable" was the guilt she felt at not having been a "proper woman" for him. I can't believe this shit. What a horrible, horrible man.

Though I rarely listen to his messages (he can ring 20 times a week) I have been recently because his mum, my nan, is 94 and I listen enough to check that she's not ill/dying... and he's been boring on about he has to write the story of his life so they really know who he is and what he's been through. I didn't know this was a thing at all. It makes more sense.

I've been doing a Mindful Self Compassion course and it is very hard going. I find it so hard to stay in my body sometimes. I'm having therapy too but sometimes I'm just so tired of even having to think about it all. I just want to have a life where none of this is happening. I'm sure you guys all feel the same from time to time.

Does anyone feel they have got over this? What helped?

quirky, they definitely think there is some grand design to break them.or something.

fusion, I can't even begin to think what it must have been like for you . My mother is also always on about writing a book about her life. I imagine it will go something like Father Ted's golden cleric speech "and now we move on to chapter 5 - Liars..."

Your father is seriously fucked up. From my own point of view, the more you talk about it, the easier it is but I'm still I'm the middle of mine. I think you're doing all the right things

And this evening 's GN posts are, erm, interesting...

The issendai blog ones too.... Although there's another thread on MN tonight where a poster is doing pretty much all the issendai behaviour list by the book, in order, I feel guilty at being so fascinated to see it so clearly laid out!

Although there's another thread on MN tonight where a poster is doing pretty much all the issendai behaviour list by the book, in order, I feel guilty at being so fascinated to see it so clearly laid out!

Can you say which thread?

I'm weirdly keen to know, as well.

I assume my current fascination with all things 'mad parent' related is my unconscious figuring something out. Part of it became clear last week but I'm still at it, so there's more to come ... it is tiring, fusion, yes.

I've been therapising myself for 15 years, with professional guidance for around half of the time. I do NOT think I'll ever be over it, if 'over it' means 'like a normal person with a normal family background'. I can't erase the past I have or un-live the experiences that shaped me. What I can do is fill in the gaps; compassion work is very, very good for this. I've changed radically in these 15 years - in ways I'm pleased to have changed apart from the ageing and I mean radically as in 'from the roots'.

The two books that made the biggest difference to me were John Bradshaw's "Homecoming" and Paul Gilbert's "The Compassionate Mind". I do some exercises from the latter every day.

I don't think this work will ever be finished for me: I'm getting old as things stand, and in poor health. At least I'll die self-compassionately This might sound like a grim thought, but I expect things will alter after Mum dies. I don't mean financially, she isn't loaded. But in some ways it will tie up some threads that started unravelling when Dad was killed. I expect it will affect all of us in this respect, but not in the same ways for each sibling.

Fusion

Sounds like you're doing a good job of self-therapising, garlic.

Ican't post much because my laptop has just died and i really hate typing on the tablet!
Sorry that this thread has been triggering for several of you, but I think it is good in some ways, it's like cleaning out scar tissue from old wounds - you get better healing afterwards, even if the scars never completely disappear.

Rumbling I want to know which thread too.