This is really chilling, I think

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Namechanged for this, as potentially too identifiable to FOO stalkers.

I am NC with FOO, for a variety of reasons, none of which I particularly want to rehash here. Occasionally I lurk on a FB forum for parents of estranged adult children, because I find it morbidly fascinating and actually quite validating to observe just HOW bonkers the mindset is.

Today I found this post on there, which sent shivers down my back because it is SO similar to the kind of thing my NMother has sent to me:

The last time I wrote my daughter...a few years ago, I stated the following: "When a person is charged with a crime, the accused is presented with a list of grievances. As your mother, I feel I am entitled to no less a list of grievances in support of your claims of hatred towards me." I've never received a reply, because she has none. We as parents shouldn't accept responsibility for our adult children's short-sightedness and bad behavior.

As ever, it's much easier to see the crazy when it's not your own personal situation being hashed out, but OMG at the demand that the adult child justifies her emotions with a bullet-pointed list of grievances before there can be any question of her being permitted to feel her own feelings. And these people wonder why they are estranged. You'd think round about the time you wrote about your entitlement to a list of grievances to support your child's claims of hatred towards you, you might get a glimmer of realisation about why your adult dc didn't want to be around you. But apparently not.

fusion, so sorry

oh fusion

Fusion I'm so sorry for all you've been through. sexual abuse isn't always physical. As well as the narc stuff you might get some sense from looking at something called 'covert incest'.

I've read this thread, the links and the parallel thread on gransnet. Very interesting, if rather triggering at times. I found the gransnet one particularly hard as I lost myself in the circularity and accusations, replaying the voices I've grown up with. So glad there was the fabulous nonanan and this thread to anchor me.

I can't find the Gransnet thread.

NMSA, it's called nasty thread on mumsnet about a gransnet thread. Prepare to have to bleach your brain after reading...

Sorry, had to take a break for a bit as was getting a bit wound up about it all.

fusion for everything you've been through and still have to face with your father.

Yy ambroxide and quirky, thank you - I'm glad we've waited, and even if we never have children that's so much better than having them and messing them up hugely as we would have done back then and hopefully can mitigate a bit now.

I came back feeling a bit more relaxed about it all, and it's amazing how posts like the following have the power to chill me right through again: (are we allowed to post the bits that worry us btw in context? If not, MNHQ please can you just edit the quotes themselves out of this post?):

"How would you know notanan, oh you don't know because you're not a nan are you and you don't yet know that instantaneous out pouring of love that as a GM you feel when you see and hold your GC for the first time, and you don't know and I hope you never do, the feeling of having your heart ripped out when that child is taken out of your life."

"A friend once told me that there is no purer love than the love you have for a grandchild. I thought she was OTT . Ten years later I knew exactly what she meant".

... There's just this weird, weird self-obsession here over and over. This sort of "a grandparent loves most and best" and "grandchildren urgently need their GPs most of all" feeling.

What goes on in these people's heads? Do they think they "love" these children more than the parents do? Why would your love for a GC be "purer" than that for your own child?

Imagine if you spotted a random baby and had an outpouring of love for it - you'd be called a right weirdo and possibly cautioned. But as an estranged GP (who has the social status of 'stranger' and 'potentially dangerous stranger at that' as far as I'm concerned), you have "rights" because you're biologically connected? It's just ... weird. The whole thing is weird.

It's the violent imagery too - heart ripped out, throats cut, and always all about them. I find that word 'abandoned' that gets used a lot even more telling. 'Abandoned' implies helpless, dependent, unable to cope alone. Not really something you think of in a parental relationship. I did like Issendai's comment about adult children should not stay put until parents are ready for them to go, although I see the guy blanked that completely.

Was reading the comments last night about the idea of the memory boxes of gifts not allowed to be given with copies of all emails evidencing the rows is loving and all about the grandchildren. Absolute inability to see in their own choice of language it is not at all as they insist about proving they never stopped loving their GC. I really don't know if they lack the empathy to realise how an adult is going to feel looking at years worth of baby toys in a box, or genuinely don't see that their main aim is to cause sadness, a sense of loss and grief and anger against their parents. As always it's all about them. 'I need you to see this/hear this for my benefit' and as usual it's with a side order of 'and stuff how you feel or what effect that has on you.'

Fusion, there are no words

It's so funny that not one of them has actually said the reasons their children gave, yet on stately homes, most of the posts are about the reasons. The primary reason I would say is probably 'not listening '.

Yes - I can only really see it being three things:

(1) denial: they have been told by the adult - but they can't accept the reasons. The adult child has given up trying. I bet this is most common. Even if they've never been given an itemised list, if they were being totally honest with themselves, they'd realise they've argued a lot and differed on big things and don't really enjoy each other's company. I bet some GPs even some relief at the no-contact although that's as taboo to admit as wanting to cut off your parents.

(2) abuse: they haven't been told - their child has been swept up by a cult or abusive partner - in which case they do still have a reason, and instead of loathing that person or victim blaming, they should be working on supporting them rather than grieving about not seeing the GCs.

(3) sociopaths?: they haven't been told - and can't work out why and genuinely they woke up one day to silence. I bet that doesn't happen often or overnight, but that in itself still shows "a reason" as clearly something went wrong with their bond. Maybe the adult child is a total unrelenting sociopath who just doesn't care about people (rare but possible).

More likely of course that they're a regular person who just can't articulate what's wrong like the people in (1) have tried to do and can't see what it would do, so one day have started to reduce contact and felt better about it, eventually disappearing off the radar totally.

I think.

I actually find the memory box ideas quite sinister. On the face of it they are presenting it as a kind action - helping their GCs understand their heritage. Actually it is a form of further abuse and manipulation. They are hoping to manipulate their GCs into believing their parents are awful people who destroyed their relationship with loving GPs for their own selfish reasons, a kind of parental alienation. It's a sort of final 'fuck you' power play.

I just cannot wrap my head around how someone could be so selfish. Do the EGPs have any insight at all? PPs explained about their delusions about their sense of self and protecting the image they project of themselves. But I really wonder if EPs have an understanding of this on any level? The gransnet thread would suggest not. They really do believe that they are of more importance the the parents-completely bonkers.

Fusion - so sorry. You've broken the cycle of abuse and have proven you are a good parent to your DCsp

It seems on multiple forums to come back as

• I don't agree with that reason or that reason doesn't fit with my image of myself

• That reason therefore is not valid, I can't process it and so I disregard it

• You haven't given me a reason!

It's like the person on the Issendai comments, who says his son screamed at his mother until she curled up on the floor threatening suicide. However he won't agree that there were any words or communication in that screaming. So just a man standing shrieking 'arrrrrgh!' then?

Of course there were words involved. They didn't register on the EPs perceptions of reality in any way.

As

They are hoping to manipulate their GCs into believing their parents are awful people

But because often one of the reasons why they have been excluded is because they infantilise and attempt to control their adult children, their view of their grandchildren will be even more infantilised, as they're still idealised as babies. So the production of the "memory box" by an elderly grandparent who has been the subject of warnings, probably detailed and with reasons, by the parents, to a young adult grandchild, is unlikely to have the heavenly choirs and moments of catharsis expected. Less rapture, more Miss Havisham.

Have any of the crazy forums actually featured an account of what happened at the moment the the box was produced? I suspect the idea is too creepy new for one to have reached its conclusion, so they don't know. My guess it that it Did Not End Well.

Less rapture, more Miss Havisham.

Oh so well put.

Yes, rumbling I think the two most common are to simulatenously say they haven't had a reason and that they have been "attacked", i.e been told the reason, which they don't agree with. Obviously these two things cannot both be true.
My mother saw an e mail I wrote to her (flying monkey) brother detailing it all and said it was character assassination and then that she didn't know why I was upset.
Then i wrote to her and she said it was "written from an alternate reality" and a "tirade", but then says she doesn't know the reason for NC. So, twice she's done just what the EPs ont he forum do.
You can't reason with that, total lack of a basis in reality.

My mother doesn't have a clue why we don't have a good relationship, or why she doesn't have a good relationship with DS.

It's very sad. She broke the last vestiges of a relationship (which was based on FOG and tradition), with the way she behaved when my dad, her husband died. She behaved despicably and even whilst she was doing it she was in complete denial about her actions. It broke me. And it broke any bond. Kind of amazing that it broke actually, and I think she either hasn't yet realised or does and the denial has kicked in?

Anyway, there were such a strong traditional set of behaviours with her yanking on the chain and me responding, its been that way the whole of my life and although I'd taken steps to protect and heal myself, that chain was still going strong, no matter how badly she behaved. It's actually shocking that the chain broke... Who knew I had limits?!

They draft complete scenes in their heads about how their ECs will react when they provoke them.

Example: Sending birthday card to GCs.

Scenarios in EGPs head:
#1: EC takes card and rips it into a thousand pieces in a rage, while kicking furniture, crying and reaching for Prozac
#2: EC gives card to child and child says "Why don't we see granny any more, mummy? Why? Why? I WANT MY GRANNEEEE

What actually happens:
#1: Card shredded along with other post.EC mutters" for fucks sake" under breath
#2: Card given to child. Child checks it for money, says meh, sticks it with the rest and resumes online gaming

Similarly with all the 'beyond the grave' stuff like disciplinary notes telling you how awful you are and being excluded from their will. EGP assumes much wailing and gnashing and "Why wasn't I nicer to my mother?". Reality is I assume complete and utter relief that they are finally out of your life.

They draft complete scenes in their heads about how their ECs will react when they provoke them.

Yeah, I get that, but it's the "memory box" part I don't get. That's presuming there is some opportunity for them to meet with the now-adult grandchild, so some time in the future. What teen/twenties adult is going to open a box of yellowing child's birthday cards and do anything other than think "you are unhinged?" Do they seriously (I suspect they do) think it's going to provoke "yes, old person I barely know, I now reject my parents and their evil ways and will follow your lead"?

Bolograph, I completely agree. It's nearly like they are asking the GCs to choose one over the other. And I also imagine the content of the letters or cards would be wildly inappropriate passionate love letters, which to the majority of children or even older teenagers would just find creepy. "You don't know me, but I love you so much that I'd kill your parents just to be with you".

And what happens when the EGC end up looking like/ behaving like their parents?

Yeah, I get that, but it's the "memory box" part I don't get. That's presuming there is some opportunity for them to meet with the now-adult grandchild, so some time in the future. What teen/twenties adult is going to open a box of yellowing child's birthday cards and do anything other than think "you are unhinged?" Do they seriously (I suspect they do) think it's going to provoke "yes, old person I barely know, I now reject my parents and their evil ways and will follow your lead"?

I think the thinking behind it is driven by their complete inability to understand that other people can legitimately have different perceptions and emotions from their own. In their minds they want the child to think, "Yes, grandparent, now that I have been supplied with the information my parents cruelly withheld from me, now I see that you were right all along". The fact that this bears no relation to what any teenager or 20-something would think, never mind their own specific grandchild, doesn't enter their minds as a possibility.

In the same way, they don't see the potential damage to the grandchild or the gc's relationship with its own parents caused by continuing to send reminders of what the estranged GC is missing out on. They cannot and/or will not accept that the decision to go NC was reached very painfully and reluctantly, after much soul-searching, because the EA felt that it was the least worst solution to an intolerable situation. Hence they also cannot accept that the GC's interests are best served by not having the separation raked over by constant reminders of how much Granny misses them, and all the lovely things they could be doing if their cruel parents weren't keeping them away from their loving GPs.

Hmm ... I don't know; all they'd need to do is time it right on a GC who was going through a natural push-pull phase with parents, who hadn't been warned or didn't understand the manipulative behaviour behind it anymore than 99% of the population do.

"Grandma gave me £100,000 for university! How lovely! Mum, did you know she's changed and wants to make amends? Although she doesn't seem to know why you fell out in the first place? I don't get it, how would you like it if I did that to you?" Years of manipulation later maybe "fuck, I see that money had strings attached - Grandma's not very nice is she?" but not right away necessarily.

I think GPs like this are very dangerous because it won't be about that GC or their feelings and emotional health at all, just vengeance on their own children.

Which is why if we're lucky enough to have DC they'll have to have some very limited contact with my mum (very limited) so they can see for themselves she's bonkers, and an explanation of DH's dad.

Oh boy I've actually a little insight to this. I was previously nc with mine on 2 other occasions. When I was lured back into contact so was dd. she was actually told on one occasion that they'd considered continuing to buy her gifts and 'saving' them so she could see they still cared for her. They clearly thought it was a lovely idea - she looked at them like they were batshit! Instead they set up a bank account. They've made a ridiculously big deal about this. She overheard my mother threatening to take this away, then told me

'does she really think she can BUY me?!' And rolled her eyes.

Yes I feel guilty for exposing my dd to all this crazyiness (in my defence I was very mentally ill when this decision was made and that was used).

Now that we are nc again with 2 and lc with my mother, dd has actually told me unprompted she's glad as she never like my father or sister (in addition to the family shite they're very bigoted and she's far from as I hope am I ).

So any egp thinking it will endear the gc and being them round to their side - in my experience it has the opposite effect!

Merd hope you do have the joy of parenthood, but you should be aware that becoming a parent makes these parents seem even more batshit! You notice stuff you hadn't before.