This is really chilling, I think

[404NotFound]

Namechanged for this, as potentially too identifiable to FOO stalkers.

I am NC with FOO, for a variety of reasons, none of which I particularly want to rehash here. Occasionally I lurk on a FB forum for parents of estranged adult children, because I find it morbidly fascinating and actually quite validating to observe just HOW bonkers the mindset is.

Today I found this post on there, which sent shivers down my back because it is SO similar to the kind of thing my NMother has sent to me:

The last time I wrote my daughter...a few years ago, I stated the following: "When a person is charged with a crime, the accused is presented with a list of grievances. As your mother, I feel I am entitled to no less a list of grievances in support of your claims of hatred towards me." I've never received a reply, because she has none. We as parents shouldn't accept responsibility for our adult children's short-sightedness and bad behavior.

As ever, it's much easier to see the crazy when it's not your own personal situation being hashed out, but OMG at the demand that the adult child justifies her emotions with a bullet-pointed list of grievances before there can be any question of her being permitted to feel her own feelings. And these people wonder why they are estranged. You'd think round about the time you wrote about your entitlement to a list of grievances to support your child's claims of hatred towards you, you might get a glimmer of realisation about why your adult dc didn't want to be around you. But apparently not.

Thanks Garlic, I've ordered those books as I think they might help my DH.

I do NOT think I'll ever be over it, if 'over it' means 'like a normal person with a normal family background

I agree with this totally and I think it's one of those weird things you need to come to terms with time and time again - we're never going to be fully normal, but maybe we can be somewhat healed.

Oh! Have nc'ed by the way after a DM warning on another thread. This is me, Merd. (Obviously I'd guess but just in case....)

I've just read this thread through and want to distribute lots of tea and unmumsnetty hugs.

This has been very hard reading. My exH shows all the signs of being the kind of parent you grew up with. Currently my DD10 sees him once a week, for a few hours and has a quick phone call with him daily (that he insists on and chases her down for). In that time he can achieve what feels like almost unlimited amounts of damage if he's in the mood.

There's a contact order, though the terms are a little woolly, so it would be very difficult for me to cut off contact completely. I'm prepared to do it if necessary though. However, although my DD really struggles to deal with her dad she obviously loves him, because when you're 10 you do love your parents. I can barely stand to watch any more though, but I don't know what's best for her. If I cut off contact will she turn him into an idealised figure rather than the reality. Will not seeing him magically improve her mental health or will it cause other issues? Is it better to let her see him and manage the fallout kindly, and explain where and how his behaviour is inappropriate. At the moment we just talk it out when her dad is difficult and I reinforce and reinforce and reinforce that his behaviour is not to due to her, she didn't cause it, she didn't create it and she can't control it. It's very hard though.

What I am asking, if you don't mind answering, is what did you want someone to do when you were young that they didn't do?

I have the feeling though that the answer is 'make my parent be the person I needed them to be'. It breaks my heart to not be able to do that.

What I am asking, if you don't mind answering, is what did you want someone to do when you were young that they didn't do? I have the feeling though that the answer is 'make my parent be the person I needed them to be'. It breaks my heart to not be able to do that.

Indeed that is the answer. But a close second would be to have the other parent validate your perceptions and experiences and help you to put them into context. I think children can get over even really appalling experiences if there is somebody who can help them to think what it means and how they feel about it. The really damaging thing about the kinds of situations that many estranged adult dc were in, was the fact that either both parents were actively doing really horrible mad gaslighting, criticism and verbal abuse, or one parent was doing it while the other passively facilitated it.

So I don't think you will end up in the same situation, difficult as yours sounds.

Idbuythat, that sounds really hard :(

Your DD is nearing the age where the courts would take her wishes into consideration, so if you do break the contact order, he might not be able to get it reinstated.

But, what does your DD want? Sounds like you're managing the fall out pretty well at the mo, in terms of supporting your DD so she has the chance to understand that it's not her, it really IS him; but if she'd prefer to speak to/see him less, I think you should try to do that for her.
Does she have any form of counselling? If so, what do they suggest?

I came back to post what 404 has said. What I didn't get was perspective. I understood what was going on with my parents, perforce - they 'parentified' me - from their points of view. Or, rather, from Dad's, since he was the dominator. And I was surrounded by adults telling me that what he did was wrong, which I think saved me from getting even more damaged.

There wasn't much useful info about abusive relationship dynamics in the 1960s & 70s. I can't reasonably blame anyone, as they couldn't share what they didn't know. By contrast, my friends who are exiting bad relationships now have access to therapists for their children and loads of resources to help them teach their children to name and evaluate what's happening. I'm not saying the kids are unscathed - they aren't, they act out - but they're ten times more emotionally literate than I was at their age. And, indeed, than other kids their age. It's a pity any child has to learn about abuse tactics and self-protection, but it's a darn sight better than being fully manipulated by an abuser.

Some schools teach it quite well in PHSE. My nephew benefited from this, in light of his dad's abuse. There's a Freedom Programme for children. I'd also recommend doing the FP yourself, if you haven't already - it provides a useful 'toolbox' which you can then share as needed.

Hello there IdBuy ... How awful for you all but you know what? You're miles ahead of most people here already: you KNOW what a number he's doing on her and you can give her another inner voice, another path, and unconditional love. Many of us didn't get that, we got gaslighted and confused and had one "nice" parent not standing up to the not-so-nice one.

I'd suggest counselling too more than anything: at the ripe of age of 30 it's taught me new methods of questioning things and I think it would have been good to have an (age appropriate) outlet like that when I was young too. That way it's also not "you versus dad", it's a safe space she can talk about anything in. Bear in mind that she might need to work out some 'negative' feelings towards you too one day, but that's not the same as hating you or something.

My DH (whose parents separated when he was young) is NC with an abusive dad and is in regular contact but fairly "coolish" with his mum. She doesn't get the lovely happy cuddly version of him I get ... because she didn't do anything to protect them when they were little. I think one of the worse things she did (without meaning to) was being happy when the dad messed up and quoting his mistakes as "proof" he was terrible, because it proved she was right, which made them feel they had to defend him, IYSWIM. Their upbringing was more a battle of the two wills then what was best for the kids, and DH looks back and wished she'd blocked more contact but also handled it more carefully. Tricky and almost impossible situation I know!

Which is why I'd say tread carefully, seek professional advice, and most of all be your little girl's safe space. You're doing better than most by even asking these questions and I'm so glad she has you to look out for her

Idbuy, for me it would be having another adult I could trust who would listen. It sounds like you're doing a great jon already.

(I should say in the ripe age of my 30s it taught me - I'm increasingly far away from 30 now!)

Has anyone read the guest post today? It deals with this topic of abusive parents and their adult children. The image of the cuddly mother and the wire mother in the link is very apt.

to all of you had to put up with this. It's hard enough as an adult dealing with toxic inlaws but at least I have a stable childhood to give perspective to the madness.

404 and others.... I'm not comfortable to name the thread and poster as it doesn't feel fair, but it's one of the current family/generational based issue threads on the main boards. Tbh, the tactics and techniques appear at intervals in pretty much all those kind of threads from some posters, but reading in conjunction with the Issendai blog I was struggling not to play bingo.

I've always found the most helpful way to cope is academic understanding, to be able to see the subtext of what is happening as I've always been so fogged that I've taken everything at face value, unquestioned. It helps so much to learn to recognise scripts and techniques and depersonalise it.

I am dealing with this right now. It is not an easy decision to make. People have told me i am beimg ridiculous, i should just suck it up, i should be the first to reconcile, "but she's your mother", " you only get one mother", etc. But no one ever saw what went on behind closed doors and when it started to affect my son i called quits. I am in therapy now to work through my anxiety. But in a strange way, having no contact with my mother has freed me. Very few people understand this. I owe her nothing.
This thread has given me some comfort.

Whoop. Hope your therapy helps. My brother likes to say that sort of thing sometimes ("you've only got one mum you know"). To which I think resolutely, thank fuck - two of her would finish me off!

People have told me i am beimg ridiculous, i should just suck it up, i should be the first to reconcile, "but she's your mother", " you only get one mother", etc.

Nobody who hasn't been through it can possibly understand, ime. Even people who appear to have empathised/sympathised greatly or over a long period as you struggle with how your family treats you really fail to 'get it' when you take the big step of actually going NC. People really are shocked, and it often tips the balance as to who they see as being the unreasonable one in a long-running conflict saga. Ime, this is sometimes because people you thought were sympathetic to your situation were actually just enjoying the soap opera, and thought you were exaggerating for effect too, which can be really disappointing to realise. But the taboo of turning your back on a parent is strong and persistent, and it can also help you really find out who your friends are when you can separate people out into those who appreciate what a big deal it is and therefore understand what on earth you must have been through to get to this point, and those who really can't have been listening (to the desperation in your voice, even if you couldn't bring yourself to talk details). It is indeed very liberating to get to a point where you can cheerfully say, 'knickers to the lot of you', both to your family themselves, and to anyone who presumes to tell you blood should be thicker than water.

Somewhere (the Issendai blog?) someone makes mention that the only regret NC children ever seem to have is that they didn't do it earlier, and I couldn't agree more.

I haven't spoken to my mother in nearly three years, neither have the rest of her children (my two brothers). It causes me pain every day and is a constant battle between my head and heart. I know my reasons are just and extensive, that NC now also protects my children (who have arrived since the NC began) from the pain she regularly put me and my brothers through; we know that she is not capable of change and interestingly, consistent with the blog, prior to the NC when we tried to sit down one-on-one and talk things through, she was always the victim and we were always the evil, ungrateful children who are causing HER untold pain. It was exasperating, exhausting and made us all incredibly angry.

It is not a decision that anybody would make lightly and for my brothers and I, it caused other problems that we weren't prepared for, such as being cut off by members of our extended family who have seen the tears and drama, they can not understand or respect our decision.

Once the decision to stay away from each other was made, it was at first liberating and a massive relief. We are all much healthier and happier by not being in each others life's, but I still think, as a Mother myself, that it is a very sad situation and at times a very painful experience that I need to constantly re-evaluate and relive.

It is very hard to move on from a broken down relationship with the woman that gave birth to you; it is certainly not easy and to be honest, although I am doing it, I don't really know how to let it go completely and free myself from all of the pain. I don't think I ever will.

'She's your mother,' is only in the name I call her. My mother never behaved like a mother or loved me. I was confused when people offered me comfort if I'd hurt myself. Mother only in name. I raised myself despite both my parents abuse.

I got linked here from the blog of the day, or whatever it is, and wanted to thank you all for some powerful insights. I'm not personally nc with anyone, but currently have a teen friend of dd1 living with us who has gone nc with her mum. I'll try not to drip feed - the dd was adopted as a baby and subsequently her adoptive parents split (adopted from o'seas of unknown birth parents). Adoptive mum has long history of alcoholism (dad too), periods of being dry and well after residential rehab, but has been on downhill spiral for last three years. Abusive and vindictive to the dd. Telling her she is the reason she drinks etc. Telling her she has to go and live with her dad (dad not interested, lives on other side of country, sees dd for hols twice a year). Mums drinking worsens, several suicide attempts, four residential rehabs (the dd stays at home with step-dad). Mum is model client in rehab, dries out, excels in program, comes home, drinks, tries to kill herself. After the fourth term in rehab, the dd tells her father she can't live at home any more, as she can't deal with her mum. Goes nc with mum, moves here. I am friend of mum, and it has been horrific watching the downhill spiral, and watching the abuse of the dd. Mum has been dx with bpd alongside her alcoholism. It is no surprise to me.
So now, I am trying to support the nc dd, whilst dealing with the ep. Am totally balanced between the two stools. I want the mum to access support for her bpd and have every sympathy for her dealing with her my issues, but she is now using the dx as a weapon, to force everyone to see her as the victim. She has zero understanding or compassion for how the dd feels, or what she has done to her as a result of her alcoholism or mh.
I'm in a total quandary, as I see them both as victims, but I have to prioritize the dd - she is so nearly an adult, but not quite, and has been through so much. I don't want to minimize the mum's experiences with her mh, but I find her absolute inability to understand why her dd felt she had to go nc absolutely mind-blowing. She claims to be 'bewildered' and that her dd is 'punishing' her for being mentally ill. This is also the narrative that she is giving her counsellors. And is very much of the opinion that as soon as her counsellors get hold of dd that they will put her right and move her back home. she literally cannot see anything other than her own point of view.
She dealt with the moving out thing ok initially (she assumed it would be very temporary - and told me that she was laughing with her therapist about it, and that the dd would be begging to go home within two weeks) but since has varied wildly between suicidal 'I can't recover unless she is here with me' and incandescent with rage 'she's got some bloody apologizing and begging to do if she thinks she is coming back'. I've not passed any of this on to the dd, who is resolutely maintaining the nc and seems to be doing ok.
I was just really interested in some feedback as to where I stand in this - as a sort of go-between I'm not interested in enabling the mum's agenda, and want to support the dd, but equally I can see the mum is v unwell and needs a whole load of support. I'm already semi cast in the role of child snatcher, but don't want to be making any decisions for anyone else - it isn't my family. Equally I don't want to be party to anything that is going to cause harm.
The dd has one more year of school, and is a top-notch student. She is very very quiet (I was frankly amazed that she stood up and said 'no more', and know how much courage she would have to have screwed together) and is essentially biding her time. In February after mum's latest suicide attempt, we were chatting about universities as a distraction, and she said 'I can't wait for next year. I can leave and go wherever I want.'
As someone with no experience of nc families, how do I find my way through this and support the dd? (And less obviously, the mum - by which I mean, I have no desire to erase the nc, but is there a way I can make it easier for the mum without negating the dd's experiences?)

Sorry, that was really long, and a total derail. I'm just floundering about as it doesn't seem to fit neatly into MH, Alcohol support, adoption or anywhere... And you lot seem to have very relevant insights.
Garlic, I also wanted to thank you for sharing that 'wondering if you have some sort of personality disorder yourself' moment. I have had to purposely dissociate from the mum's feelings since last year (I ended up with chest pains, and several go and hospital visits before I realized it was stress resulting in physical symptoms), and whilst I've been able to protect myself, it does make you wonder if you have cut out an essential part of the human experience. I don't want to hurt the mum, but I can't and won't take on responsibility for her health.

No, sadly.

BPD is a terrible condition, and it is not the mum's fault - and there isn't anything you can do to fix it. The best you can do is offer as stable and caring an environment to this young woman as possible and hope it is enough to break the cycle.

I have every compassion for the mum - she didn't choose to be this as no one ever would, it is a devastating way to have to live a life - but disengaging is sometimes the best any of us can do to ease the suffering we come across in the world.

My self-compassion phrases for myself - which you might apply both to yourself and to this young woman in your life are:
I see you
I hear you
I stand with you
I stand for you
I wish you ease and freedom from this suffering

My kind phrases for my father with whom I am nc are
I see you
I hear you
I can no longer stand with your abuse
I can no longer stand for your abuse
I wish you ease and freedom from this suffering

How lucky for that girl that you could take her in dog. Fusion says it very well above.

I think you may have to detach from the mum: don't go out of your way to hurt her, obviously, but stop being her "friend" in all this. The girl's the priority as you say.

It's just so hard isn't it, because if these people were totally mentally well we'd all feel able to "judge" easier (well, they wouldn't do it hopefully, but you know what I mean).

As it is, so much of their behaviour is illogical that it feels horrible to "judge" because you feel like they couldn't help it (and usually in society if you can't help something then you shouldn't be held accountable for it).

But then - we would usually remove potential weapons from people who are suicidal so they can't hurt themselves; likewise we should be able to remove the vulnerable people from those who are unwell like this so that they can't hurt them either.

Thanks both - I think that's why it's such a struggle - the mh backdrop/ intent thing. Mum's behaviour is totally illogical (and therefore I can very easily square protecting the dd from that) but yet the fact that it is totally illogical is evidence that she is so well. If there was identifiable intent in the abuse, there would be no conflict at all. They do both need support, without doubt, but they have such very different (and competing) needs.
Does anyone know how the mum's psych is likely to advise going forward? At the moment she is apparently advising mum to respect the dd's wishes and stop contacting her (sometimes there are barrages of texts, inviting her to dinner etc etc - followed by how good the mum is being at reaching out, and getting nothing in return - fuelling the punishment narrative) but it is very obvious to me that her psych will know nothing about the emotional abuse at all. The dd is just 17 - if she continues to refuse contact, will her wishes be upheld? Or can the courts insist? At the moment she is strong enough to stay nc, but I don't know if she would cope with a more formalised approach. (Her dad supports her wishes to be nc fully. Possibly as an excuse to not have her move in with him, but also as his relationship with his xw is v acrimonious).

So unwell. Oops

I think it unlikely the mother would be coherent enough to formalise contact attempts. Will the dd not block the mother on her phone?

Yes the mother is ill but the dd is the priority, both as a child and as someone who so far has not developed as far as I can tell from your posts, major mental health or addiction issues herself which I think she is at risk at if she has contact with the mother while the mother is still drinking and I'm guessing also not engaging with mh recovery.

As well as treatment for the physical symptoms of stress I hope you are getting professional support too?

Since courts usually take the child's wishes into account from when they're about 12, iirc, I doubt very much that they would even attempt to force contact between a nearly adult child and an alcoholic, suicidal mother. And even if they did, she'll be 18 soon enough and then no one can force her to do anything re. seeing her mother. Sou ds like adesperately sad situation but yes, the DD is the more important one here in terms of support. :(

The dd is totally straight, bacon. Almost unnaturally so it could well be a reaction to the chaos, I assume. I'm hoping she will loosen up a bit, but I do think she is a genuinely reserved kid, on the whole. I'm worried about her adoptive history for her mh. Although this time she was the one that walked, she has essentially been abandoned (or at risk of being abandoned by suicide multiple times) by two sets of parents.
I actually do think the mum could well try to formalize contact - she can appear totally together if she isn't mid- episode/ in crisis, and I am absolutely certain that her own counsellors know nothing about the abusive side of her illness, which really flares when she drinks (which of course she doesn't in a residential setting). She has a very believable narrative where she is a victim of her mh, and she is a danger to herself, no one else, and that everyone hates her/ is punishing her for something beyond her control (you know what bloody teenagers are like, no empathy at all, selfish and just thinking of themselves, why can't she throw me a bone, here. I'm the one that's ill.). She researches mh symptoms and regurgitates them as her own (I do have some empathy with this as it must be very tempting to latch on to potential diagnoses in the hope that it may be a route to help) but I have also had her give me a lengthy explanation, in my own exact words, of a particular difficulty. She had no idea that she was regurgitating my words, and was putting on an Oscar-worthy performance in an attempt to convince me how rational she was being, and how irrational her dd was being by going nc. Anyone else would have listened to her and thought she was the very picture of measured consideration, but it was diametrically opposite to her usual (and subsequently repeated) feelings on the subject when she wasn't mid 'performance'. She has many counsellors (she has access to at least one from every residential rehab facility she has been in over the last year, as well as a local psych and outreach team, none of whom are allowed to speak to her dh or dd) and speaks eloquently about the complexity of her case and the fact that she cannot help any of it. She is always looking for the next residential program that will recognize how unique her situation is and help her with it, but is unable to take any action herself. She is 'completely at the mercy of her illness'. I mean, of course, she is, but she can also be very careful which narrative she is telling at any one time, and I don't know how many of her professional team see through the 'performance' stuff. I recognize it as I know her so well, and have heard many different versions, multiple times. And I also know how she has treated her dd. But I don't know if anyone else does. Which, if it comes to it, makes me the only whistleblower that can protect her.
We have also discussed (in more lucid times) how counter-productive it is that smart women with mh issues are able to hoodwink professionals working in the field. She is quite proud of talking down the police, who had traced her to a hotel room filled with booze and OD medication (after sending final messages to her family and I, then switching off her phone) and she essentially told them she was perfectly fine, thank you, this was a gross invasion of her privacy, and she sent them packing. She still laughs about how dumb they were.