This is really chilling, I think

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Namechanged for this, as potentially too identifiable to FOO stalkers.

I am NC with FOO, for a variety of reasons, none of which I particularly want to rehash here. Occasionally I lurk on a FB forum for parents of estranged adult children, because I find it morbidly fascinating and actually quite validating to observe just HOW bonkers the mindset is.

Today I found this post on there, which sent shivers down my back because it is SO similar to the kind of thing my NMother has sent to me:

The last time I wrote my daughter...a few years ago, I stated the following: "When a person is charged with a crime, the accused is presented with a list of grievances. As your mother, I feel I am entitled to no less a list of grievances in support of your claims of hatred towards me." I've never received a reply, because she has none. We as parents shouldn't accept responsibility for our adult children's short-sightedness and bad behavior.

As ever, it's much easier to see the crazy when it's not your own personal situation being hashed out, but OMG at the demand that the adult child justifies her emotions with a bullet-pointed list of grievances before there can be any question of her being permitted to feel her own feelings. And these people wonder why they are estranged. You'd think round about the time you wrote about your entitlement to a list of grievances to support your child's claims of hatred towards you, you might get a glimmer of realisation about why your adult dc didn't want to be around you. But apparently not.

Grannytomine - you have a very clear view of my situation. I wish we could have avoided the child "going in the system" but it is done now. I don't know if that was the best way of dealing with that situation. That gives all the more reason for others being seen as the bad ones. It was a terrible decision to have to make..

I can not think of any abuse. There could have been some awful teacher at school that I do not know about. I honestly do not think there was abuse in the family. I have had a thought about why such abusive partners were chosen but I don't think it would be wise for me to voice that. I would be in more trouble here. It is a bit of a reverse psychology and I don't know enough about those things.
I just want a loved one to have a good life

Why are you so sure you would have known if it wasn't you it happened to (potentially)?

Have you seen this before, Bouquet? www.hiddenhurt.co.uk/why_domestic_abuse_victims_stay.html

Screens - that took a bit of working out. What I think you mean is that someone could have been abusing this person and I just did not see it because I was not that person. Am I correct in thinking that is your question?
We were a family who went about en masse so it would be a very hard thing for anyone to get any one of us alone. School was one of the places that we were apart for various reasons which is why I mention there could have been a bad teacher in her past. In fact that question is very interesting. No-one else went to the same school as her. Equally no-one went to the same school as me.

Garlic thanks for that going to have a read right now.

Hidden Hurt's a very useful website for anyone trying to inform their perspective on domestic abuse, whether partner or family. Worth clicking on some of the related articles, perhaps (top of right-hand column.)

ScreenshottingIsNotJournalism, why are you so sure it did happen? The young woman I referred to earlier had a good relationship with her parents before and after the abusive relationship. I only met her parents once but this is what she has told me herself. She can't explain why she stayed in the relationship. Eventually it was her child, a toddler at the time, who made the difference. She could see the effect it was having on him and his nursery were commenting on how he was hitting other children and other worrying behaviour.

Bouquets relative might have been EA as a child, it might have been by her parents/family members but it might not have happened. I can see it might be one reason women put up with abuse (or men for that matter) but I don't think that is always the case.

Siblings can be treated very differently under the exact same roof, and the GC rarely sees it from the SGs point of view, because part of the GCs "role" is to become part of the abuse, by discrediting the SCs point of view, because GCs version of upbringing with the same parents appeared good (but it wasn't healthy). GCs doesn't remember the exact same event in a negative light, so SG must be mad/imagining it/making it up. But in reality at the time they were both having a very different experience of how their parents were to them/on front of them

I'm no diagnosing this in your own family, might not be the case. but your posts did ring GC bells for me.

ScreenshottingIsNotJournalism, why are you so sure it did happen?

I'm not.
I'm no ruling out either possibility.
But alarm bells always ring when people swear blind abuse definitely didn't happen to someone else

Be it a mother swearing a family friend would never have abused her kids, or a sibling swearing blind that their siblings definitely had a good childhood.

where there's that blind certainty on someone else's behalf, there's a red flag.

Well, my brother didn't get the same level of treatment at all - he was younger and quite literally the golden child in every way, and even now he's close to our parents. I love him deeply and we're good friends but he's messed up in his own way - have you ever seen Arrested Development? Think Buster from that.

He has either forgotten the things she did or wasn't there and doesn't believe me. I have recordings of some of these things so I know I'm not barking mad. So that's what Screenshotting is getting at.

Having said that, Bouquets dynamic could be totally different. Often abusers target those who are vulnerable (often from their own childhoods) but they also pull confident bright people under their web. They can be thoroughly charming and controlling. Bouquet, have you personally sought counselling over this? Because I think it could help you clarify things in your own head.

" I didn't mention money I just said that if there was a call one of us would be there"

Except:
“I know who is taking money from whom.”

“I know that lies were told about money because I might have been a child at the time but I was present when all sorts of money problems were sorted out.”

“I know that other people (non family) have complained about this failure to answer tests and calls and trying to obtain money.”

And this is you being recruited:

“I don't care about all that other than it gets repeated to me.”

“I have to say we cant because (one person) has fallen out with us all and we would not be welcome.” Why would you tell children that? This is the very definition of the type of abuse we're talking about.

“I know who is telling history different from the facts.” You can only know what you've witnessed, you can't possibly know what's gone on before or after - see the posts but pp who had toxic people sweetness and light to them when there's a witness and vile when there's not!

“Offers of help were freely given over the years.” Again, possible this is just what you witnessed plus it's not ‘freely’ given if there's an unspoken obligation that only the abuser and victim know of.

“why if I could give advise it would be to stay close to the family who could and would provide help and support at a difficult time.” Even if the family also abusive? Albeit in a less obvious (more insidious) way?

“no-one can walk into their house and lift up an adult, say I know best for you” no but do you understand that doing so EMOTIONALLY is just as arrogant and unhelpful?? The thread I mentioned earlier re dv people had to point out to the ‘just bloody leave’ ers that this is JUST as bullying and abusive as the husband is being!

But as a pp has already said you seem (for reasons which may include you also being a victim of a toxic family) determined not to see what's really going/gone on for this person to end up in this situation.

I have had a quick read through of that and there are things on there which makes things even worse. She is not financially dependant on him but he would not want to lose her finances which he uses for the most ridiculous things. There are pets which would cause a problem as you have a responsibility to pets similar lines to children they are dependant on the adults of the house. You cant easily get a rental if you have animals.

I do know that some find it more difficult than others to leave. I have been criticised that I left to quick and failed to try harder. I am safe and have a place and fittings food and clothes for us and this is as much as I need.

There is a piece about people with children and the disabled and older people being in difficulties financially. This is another issue. Surely no=one sees it as right that people in her family should be subjected to her OH financial demands and yet she does not see that as wrong.. She is the worker though she has not got the best of health. That piece has brought up stuff I had not thought of, He clearly wants her to stay so he can financially lie back and all comes to him by her efforts. This will also be why he does not want any of us around as we have not complied with demands. In fact someone demanded right back that money owed was paid. I really wish I could do something.
The one thing that worried me when I left was that I would get "told you so" but it has never been said yet.
Crikey this is bad

Bouquets, can you leave aside your siblings relationship, and look more towards your upbringing? You seem so hung up on the NC and abuse of the sibling...that doesn't feel healthy.

You seem so stretched between all the people in your family, like your loyalty is always being tested. You seem to want to empathize with your sibling, but then all this victim blaming comes out and I wonder if that is someone else's opinion, and you have now taken it on as your own.

Screenshotting, sorry I thought you were saying Bouquet was denying that the family had abused her relative at some point. There has been some blind certainty that Bouquet has it wrong, is the GC etc. I think we are agreeing that both are a possibility.

I have been criticised that I left to quick and failed to try harder.

Who said this to you?

"We were a family who went about en masse so it would be a very hard thing for anyone to get any one of us alone."

Bull! There are people that were sexually abused in the same bedroom as siblings and the sibling didn't witness or is in genuine psychological denial (as in a type of amnesia).

Did you all sleep/toilet/bathe together?

"But alarm bells always ring when people swear blind abuse definitely didn't happen to someone else"

Exactly!

I've been on family walks for example, when I've found myself a few paces away from the others with my mother. My mother, careful to not be heard, would say the most vile things to me, then turn and smile at the others behind while she waited for them to catch up.

I would be (quite reasonably) upset. Mother would confide in the others who were on the walk that she was sorry that I was so sulky, she doesn't know what to do to cheer me up?

If I was to recite my version of that walk to the other members of the family who were there they wouldn't believe me. they'ld remember my mother trying to give us a lovely day out, they'ld remember her smiling and "trying to cheer me up". The EA from her "never happened"

Not only that, but part of them will not want to believe that my version happened.
Because to do so, they would have to admit that they were used to humiliate me (by being the witnesses of me being "sulky" after being goaded), and they would have to admit to not noticing it happen and allowing it to happen.. and that's a lot to take on board.

It's much easier to not believe that someone experienced the same event differently.

He clearly wants her to stay so he can financially lie back and all comes to him by her efforts. This will also be why he does not want any of us around as we have not complied with demands.

He sounds like what is aptly known on MN as a cocklodger. You're right, they are often abusive as part of controlling their source of free money.

I don't want to interrupt what looks like a very healthy attempt to turn the focus more towards you - but am incredibly glad you found Hidden Hurt enlightening, and hope you will read more of it.

I do know that older people in the family have been under emotional duress to part with money. There are documents to prove that. I was present when another family member has paid unpaid bills for the person in question. I have seen the legal papers which names a person as being the person in charge of a disabled persons affairs in their incapacity, A non family member contacted us and said they were owed money by the person's partner. The person who is abused has told me that those bills were not paid by anyone other than themselves but I saw whose card paid, who wrote the cheques. I have been borrowed from. Despite us being under pressure for money which our relative does not seem to think is wrong I would say that any one of us would be there in a flash to get the person and children well out of the way.
You say I am being recruited? It appears to me that the person trying to recruit me is the abused person who sees nothing wrong in all the demands for money.
I cant take a child there as we would not be welcome. I told this to the child. What would you prefer? This abused person is on holiday/in hospital/ emigrated or some other lie which could be found out and then makes me look like a liar. I believe in telling the truth to children.
Just as you say I can only tell what I witnessed. I saw the money being paid. I saw that the abusive partner claimed to have paid the bill but when questioned the company said there has been no-one here trying to pay other than yourselves me and another person. I saw that so according to the theory above it looks like the abused person is trying to change my view of what I saw
I was told by people that there was thefts from people who provided a place to stay, property was wrecked and I was present when the landlord, my family (3 others) and I went to try to sort that out. Again I saw that.
I know not to kidnap anyone child or adult but I really would love to take her away to a better situation and how is that wrong to have that as a hope that a person gets a better life.
I would advise anyone if I could to get away from an unpleasant relationship and to run like the wind from an abusive relationship. Where is the wrong in that It is again a wish for a better life for a relative
I don't know why you think I don't realise that it is hard to walk away equally I don't know why you would not wish the best for your relatives in such a position just as I do.
Some say that every time money was paid to help out the abused person all the other children should get the same in their hand. This is what I do not care about I don't want to be given money because someone else is suffering from abuse. I would rather the money went to help them out of their predicament but the only way out of this is for the abused person to make a good move. I would even be happy if she kept NC as long as she was safe.

I would advise anyone if I could to get away from an unpleasant relationship and to run like the wind from an abusive relationship

That is categorically not what you advised us to do re our unpleasant relationships with our parents.

Do you lie to the children? no! but you can tell them the truth without appointing blame. you can tell them that the adults are having some time apart/don't get along well/ lots of things, that isn't they don't welcome us.
You can also not play up the missing cousins by talking about them as such on front of the children. There's lots of things you can do, which are truthful while at the same time don't blame the other side thus using the children against them

None of that is any thing to do with you though. Of course it is upsetting to see a sibling in that scenario, but from what you have said I can't see anything that suggests she owes you any money.

So who is drawing you in to this? Who is making you feel like there is a need for you to take action?

The healthy thing for you to do would be to tell your sister you love her and then back away and get on with your own life. If she is brought up by another person, you shut the conversation down and refuse to gossip about her.

That is not happening. It sounds to me like there is a lot of hand wringing going on. All the debt, both physical (money) and emotional (pain caused/opportunities wasted etc) is being tallied up and used against a woman who is being abused. That is not healthy for anyone involved.

Are you going to engage with posters here or are you just going to keep trying to demonstrate why your view of the situation is correct?

I am not the GC very far from it. I presume that means I was the Golden Child. I was the HT. I was the holy terror. Absolutely not what was expected of any of us. I did things no-one else thought of. More recently and alongside all the worry about this abused female and the children there was a spate of very bad health problems. This is when I changed radically. I was the caring one the one who did all the housework shopping cooking etc. not much help around. Maybe this is why someone thought I was being stretched trying to be helpful to all the family. In some ways I feel this could be true. I have seen some horrible things which I have kept inside. I tried to do right (what is thought to be right generally) but I was told things were to go this other way. By the person who was ill. I could not go against a person in that state. In time I got the verbals from the abused person for that. I was the butt for that.
We did not all sleep and bathe together but we were all in the one place more than I think other people do.
Garlic - I totally agree with you about why the "cocklodger" would not want to lose out on all the benefits. He may be able to control the abused person in this way but I am not such an easy target. Therefore my ways are not acceptable to him. I would never work full time while a man sat on his backside doing nothing that would be way more than I would tolerate. It seems I am not as old fashioned as I thought if MN has such an excellent description of that type. I am going to read Hidden Hurt more thoroughly. I just read quickly so I could see more clearly what is being said here.
I was told by church types that I had left too soon and should have tried harder though I don't know why a church type would think violence was acceptable.

Personally I think Bouquet should start a new thread explaining things fully and then she'd get people commenting who've supported their siblings through this.

Clearly she's not getting anything useful from the other posters here.

I agree with "back off and live your own life" btw; being able to emotionally detach a bit is vital.