This is really chilling, I think

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Namechanged for this, as potentially too identifiable to FOO stalkers.

I am NC with FOO, for a variety of reasons, none of which I particularly want to rehash here. Occasionally I lurk on a FB forum for parents of estranged adult children, because I find it morbidly fascinating and actually quite validating to observe just HOW bonkers the mindset is.

Today I found this post on there, which sent shivers down my back because it is SO similar to the kind of thing my NMother has sent to me:

The last time I wrote my daughter...a few years ago, I stated the following: "When a person is charged with a crime, the accused is presented with a list of grievances. As your mother, I feel I am entitled to no less a list of grievances in support of your claims of hatred towards me." I've never received a reply, because she has none. We as parents shouldn't accept responsibility for our adult children's short-sightedness and bad behavior.

As ever, it's much easier to see the crazy when it's not your own personal situation being hashed out, but OMG at the demand that the adult child justifies her emotions with a bullet-pointed list of grievances before there can be any question of her being permitted to feel her own feelings. And these people wonder why they are estranged. You'd think round about the time you wrote about your entitlement to a list of grievances to support your child's claims of hatred towards you, you might get a glimmer of realisation about why your adult dc didn't want to be around you. But apparently not.

Reading that I think that Bouquet is a victim, the same as the rest of us tbh. She just cannot see where the cause is. She knows it is wrong but can't see the truth.

Sounds very like she is the GC.

You cannot fix this Bouquet. You cannot be expected to carry this burden. Sadly it seems that you won't have the close knit supportive family that you should have.

Could someone post a link to that Gransnet thread? Thanks!

I've been estranged from my whole family for years. Not easy but necessary for my well-being and that of my lovely dh and our precious children.

I did read that blog linked above. These people really are masters of propaganda and rewriting history. They could form a very effective dictatorship.

And that is what a dysfunctional family is like. It's like living in a mind-bending, soul-crushing dictatorship. You leave before you are crushed completely and have nothing left but to tow the party line.

I have been out for a while.
I think I have confused the NC situations.
The other people go NC with parents because they were mistreated or neglected or in any other way had a bad childhood.
I have assumed that NC covered all NC situations not just abusive parents.
There was no chaotic childhoods in my family until the more recent years. My own and the person I am talking about had what could be called good childhoods. There were no beating, no lack of clothes or food, no dirty clothes to be worn.
The person I am talking about was perhaps the most privileged in the family for certain reasons and perhaps this is why the choices made are so hard to understand.
The contact situation keeps changing and that is why a child asks can we see other children. The last that child saw the other children was 5 or 6 months ago.
I am not blaming the person for the violence I and others are just waiting to get a call, hoping probably in the wind, that one day one of us will get a call to get her out of there. The fact that she cant see what is going on is a worry especially as it is not the first time. It is concern for the well being of a loved person in the family even more so than people missing out on seeing them.
I can see the mistake I have made now. This is not about general No Contact It is more about abuse. I cant understand though why it is assumed that a parent must have taught her to endure abuse as there was no abuse. There are other things going on which were not learned in the family going on too. This is why I don't understand where she gets the idea to endure abuse not just once but at least twice. I am not that young that I do not know what happened in the part of her life before I was born. I did ask older relatives as well.

Merd I am trying to take it on the chin but I am angry. Not because of the event, or even the family, but the lies that must be being spread and the support everyone gives her.

I have never been supported. Through rape as a teen, DA and V, being a single parent, homelessness and severe poverty. Not once did any of them come through for me. My parents did step in twice, in small ways, but that was used as more proof of their superior parenting...when actually it is just what any human being would do for another.

Through all that I have been expected to support them. I have had aunts crying (literally) on my shoulder about their arsehole husbands and nightmare step kids. I have been asked for advice on whether one aunt should get divorced. Recently I was asked advice (and then ignored) on whether a teenage relative should go on the pill.

I have been drawn into arguments between my mother and various people. Between aunts and cousins. It was fucking tiring. It wasn't like I was seeking it out either. They would show up on my doorstep. If they didn't need my counsel I wouldn't see them from one month to the next.

So to be snubbed by all these people for her...well yeah, that stings.

But onwards and upwards.

There were no beating, no lack of clothes or food, no dirty clothes to be worn.

That is not the only kind of abuse there is. I always had clean clothes and food. I was still abused.

I feel that there is a lot that you have grown up with that you perceive as normal, but isn't normal.

Sounds very like she is the GC

I have been thinking this all along but didn't want to say outright because to someone who is not "there^ yet, it might feel like an accusation or criticism. And it's not, the GC is a victim too. It's a hard one to recognise in yourself because nobody wants to admit that they were used, there's a shame in that, like you weren't clever enough to see through it.

I posted earlier about my "steps to NC" and bouquets posts in some way mirror some of my earlier stages.

Like knowing it's not right in the family but not really knowing why
and saying things like "we don't get along, our family isn't happy, it wasn't abusive though" Abusive parents aren't always abusive all the time, and they aren't always abusive to every sibling in the family, and they might not show that side to all members of the family.

TBH I don't know if we're allowed to link to threads directly, I haven't tried it before. But then they've linked to this one in two threads and it hasn't been removed, so here goes!

(MNHQ please can you remove the link if not appropriate?) ... link

Bouquet, your definition of abuse, and "good" childhoods, is as narrow as mine used to be.

I had a "good" childhood in many on-paper ways.
There was a physical side to it, but by 70s standards it wasn't that bad
I wasn't sexually abused
I was fed, well clothed, had lots of opportunities..

And there was a lot of emotional abuse that I didn't recognise as that for years

As for the NC one being "privileged", well, the "but we took you to stately homes" tread isn't called that for nothing! Being privilged in some ways that are later held against you when you stand up to EA is a common theme on there

Liz

Abuse comes in many forms. It's not just hunger, violence or neglect.

In fact, emotional abuse can be far more damaging and insidious.

I have a friend with 4 siblings who was abused by being mechanically cared for: fed, REALLY well dressed (always had designer everything), expensive hobbies etc.. but her 3 siblings were loved on front of her eyes and she wasn't.

That is a horrifically damaging form of abuse, her siblings were used agaisnt her (and learnt to treat her like a 2nd rate person in the family so eventially they took over the parents abuse without realising it)

The damage of that has followed her through life. Nothing material was witheld, just love.

There have in the past been (unethical) experiments on babies where some are given all their physical needs, but not cuddled, the others are fed a little less but cuddled. Which group do you think had the better survival/thrive rates?

The person is an adult and has made some choices in life that are surprising in a shocking sort of way. I am aware that adults can not be forced to see what others might call sense this is why Womens' Aid have said that it just has to be sat out. The person has phones, home and mobile, works and has use of a car so I think the opportunity is there so that she could call someone if she decided she wanted help. It is the fact that she does not think anything is wrong that is a worry. The privilege was not about stately homes or anything like that it was more opportunity that she chooses to avoid. There has been serious abuse of at least one child. That did not seem to register at all. It is beyond my comprehension but I did make a mistake. I wanted to talk about someone who chooses to be blinkered and not see what they are in. It is the wrong thread for my situation. I am sure that if you knew the whole story you would be saying LTB if not worse than that. It just does not seem to be noticed.
I have to leave this now as I am upset. It is quite upsetting for me. I am just someone who is worried about a person who is in an abusive relationship and who will not communicate with anyone. It has got worse every time something happens. It started with one person being shunned and later others have been added to the NC list. I desperately do not want this person to alienate everyone so that she does have someone to turn to if and when the light is noticed.
Thanks for all your attempts to help me with info etc.

actually I know 2 people who have had their siblings used to emotionally abuse them like that

Interestingly both are the eldest siblings

The second one I've just remembered at least eventually found out a reason for it when she overheard her parents arguing about how if it wasn't for her (being conceived) they'ld have been rid of each other years ago. The subsequent (planned) siblings were loved.

She had a lot of material privilages too. Didn't make up for the coldness towards her at home

Bouquet, you are gaslighting the DV victim again.

Just because you think they have opportunities to escape their abuse, doesn't mean they do, or that they feel the same.

Do you not see that invalidating someone else's feelings and doing their thinking for them shows a total lack of empathy? It is blaming the victim, something you've done consistently through this thread.

It is telling that you don't even understand or see this basic premise.

Wow!

Bouquets I would suggest you have a LOT of reading to do.

You have repeatedly

Denied/minimised our lived experience

Victim blamed

Victim shamed

Throughout your posts.

I too suspect you were the golden child, many people who end up in abusive relationships as adults do so as they've been conditioned to believe

It's normal
They deserve it
It's not really abuse (eg if not hit it's not dv, there's actually a thread running at the moment where op has been raped but didn't recognise it, her husband controls every aspect of her life from what she eats, does all day, who her friends are, what medication she takes, why she visits the dr etc etc but...she's well off financially and he's never hit her! So obviously it's not abuse in your eyes )

Your focus on money is disturbing - you can't buy love (my abusive father tries that shit!!) money is often used to control, to make people feel obligated (also read up on FOG fear obligation guilt).

I also agree with a pp who suggested you may unwittingly (?) be acting as an enabler/flying monkey.

That you choose to

Come on this thread in the first place with these views

Post twisting what posters have said plus as I said denying/excusing/minimising the HELL we've been through is deeply offensive

One of the friends I mentioned has had a long line of abusive relationships. Her siblings have had steady (apparently) good relationships and marriages.

They probably say things like "banging our heads off a wall" about her.

She admits to being like that because of the EA from home, her siblings say she's crazy, there was no abuse, they had great childhoods.

Repeating patterns of accepting abusive relationships don't happen in a vacume

And yes I forgot the gas lighting

I'm not surprised this person feels unable to turn to you for help, so IMO you're not only being unsupportive you're contributing to the abuse

I think people are being a bit hard on Bouquet, she misunderstood the thread, she has a close relative she is worried about but unable to help. That is actually very difficult. I used to work with someone who was beaten and abused by a partner. It actually was hard for people who cared for her to watch it happen and be totally unable to do anything but wait. She ended up in hospital, her little boy was in care for a short time. People she worked with all rallied round and when she made contact with her parents they did all they could to help. She is in a good place now.

Maybe Bouquet isn't very good at expressing herself, I think it took a while before we could understand what the issue was. People are hurt and damaged in many ways and she is hurting now, perhaps we could sympathise with that even if people feel she doesn't understand their hurt.

I don't want to upset anyone, I had a good childhood but I know the damage that can be done because it happened to my husband and then his mother tried to do the same to me, I just think we all need support at times.

Liz being excluded like that is so hurtful and I don't think there is anything that we can say that will help. I hope you have people around you who can love you and help.

Is there anyone who actually thinks that I want a relative of mine in an abusive relationship? Of course not we would want our relatives to be happy and safe. II didn't mention money I just said that if there was a call one of us would be there (if not more than one). The only hint of money was that this person works therefore earns an income. I don't know that income and would never ask. I don't know how the money is spent and also would never ask such a question. I don't know where the reference to money came from. Can people not see that I just want the best for my relative. Money is not my god but the willingness of many to help her speaks its own words to me anyway.

Bouquets, if you are still here is there anything that can be done to protect the child? If you really know/believe a child is being abused you have a duty to help that child. Can you contact social services or the police. You may worry about interfering but you must ensure the child is protected.

Bouquets you have no empathy or understanding towards the victim. Your post is through your eyes and opinion only. Your obtuse attitude is very frustrating to read. You haven't taken any notice of the advice you've been given, you just keep repeating your point of view. Were you hoping that we'd all say 'poor you' and 'you've tried but she's hopeless, cut your losses'?

Thank you Grannytomine. You have understood this more. I am not great at expressing myself especially when I am trying not to put any thing that would give any information. It is a hard place to be watching all this happen.

spanky2 don't you think the child being abused is an issue? If the abused relative is turning a blind eye to serious abuse then she is failing as a parent, Bouquet also needs to step up. Whatever has gone on in the past does not excuse people allowing this to go on.

The child in need of some help is now being dealt with by the authorities. That caused a lot of havoc. I don't even know if it was right now. That hurts too.
Spanky2 - how can you say I don't have empathy. I have been in a bad state too but I got out and now to scared to live properly. I know other people would have done or said this that and the other but that was the way I dealt with it. If you were to see anything of worth in the things I have said perhaps you would have told me what made some of you realise. What can be said or done to make things clear. I definitely don't think be isolated is a good thing.

Don't you see how hard it would be for someone to end a cycle of abuse if the people close to her are swearing blind that it all started for no reason?

I know how hard it is to watch someone you care about go from one abusive relationship to the next.. after the relief (through the emotional exhaustion) of seeing them leave one abusive partner, to the despair when they find themselves in another abusive relationship after all of that.

But I acknowledge at lest that these aren't really "choices", there is a reason why a person thinks that its okay if love hurts. Why it feels normal to them to be in this sort of dynamic. And that often the pattern starts long before the first abusive partner.