MIL's subtle invasive behaviour

[dollytrix]

I have posted previously about MIL around 2 years ago. She was being overtly intrusive and critical about my parenting choices and DD was born, to the point I felt completely claustrophobic and burating with fury.
DH took the brunt, but has slowly come to terms with putting MIL in her place when required. She has improved and has been helpful lately, but I can see discreet behaviours beginning to creep in again.
Firstly, whenever I speak to, play with, sing to or chastise DD infront of her, she will speak or sing over me loudly to divert her attention back to her. I feel very conscious when she's around as she adds her opinion constantly at my choices of food to give her, the temp of her bedroom etc. But all very subtle comments like "I'm so cold in this room that I think I will have to go home."
DH had nipped to take the rubbish out and she waited until he had gone until she said anything, I told DH when he left and we both agreed the room wasn't cold at all.

A couple of weeks ago, I told MIL what I planned on buying DD for her 3rd birthday and low and behold, a week later she had the same thing sitting in her front room waiting for her arrival. Her defence was that it was second hand and a 'bargain' so surely she could have one at their house too.

Although she hasn't yet undermined my parenting when I chastise DD, I'm waiting for it. And to be honest I think I'll blow my top. She's currently having tantrums and we are having to regularly chastise her. I refrain from telling her off infront of MIL as I expect a comeback, but why shouldn't I? I'm on pins in her company. If we go on a family day trip and I make a decision she never disagrees but will push and push an opposite decision until DH tells her to back off. By that point I'm usually furious and snap at her too.

I am finding it increasingly difficult in her company, but her behaviours are very subtle so there's not a lot I can do. She also gets very giggly and smug like when she winds people up, so speaking seriously to her would not work in my favour.

DH and DBL are planning a surprise family outing for her birthday and I really don't want to go. Stuck with her for an entire day. I'll be on pins and it's exhausting. DH says that MILS behaviour is completely unintended "she's just a bit self centred not malicious, never call her malicious" He says.

I think she is malicious, in a smug-like, childish sort of way.

Thoughts? And ways to cope? DH and I don't have the best relationship at present so we could really do without the pressure from MIL right now.

You would really leave your DH over this? I'm assuming there are many other problems in your relationship that you haven't mentioned.

If you don't like his family, just don't see them - either never ever, or exceedingly rarely. Stop with the family days out and the weekly visits. He can see them by himself or with DD according to how well it suits any other plans you all have.

This is exactly what my SIL does (in order to avoid FIL) and she lives about a mile away from them. She probably sees them about 5 times a year for periods ranging from 30 mins to a couple of hours max. Her choice. It means they see a lot less of their grandson because he only visits with his dad, so that's when they are not doing family stuff. ILs are never invited to family stuff.

It sounds like your husband can see why MIL upsets you and it will probably make his life easier too if you don't need to go near her or have her in your home. Once you stop seeing her, don't ask any questions about his or DD's visits- not your concern any more. It will just look like you are looking for a reason to pick at things. Trust him to tell you anything you need to know.

BTW, I wouldn't have responded to her scarf comment on her birthday. I either wouldn't have gone in the first place, or would have bitten my tongue and then gone NC. You knew what she would be like before you went out, so obviously went planning to put her in her place. No matter how politely you worded your comment, it was sharp and the result fairly predictable. As it was her birthday, I wouldn't have done that- in part because I'm too nice and in part because I'd expect other family members might think I should cut her a bit of slack on her birthday and be less understanding of my irritation.

I would cut back on your and her visits as it is making you miserable. I would encourage your DH to take your DD around to their house on an evening that it suited you to do something else and leave them off.

Well done for standing your ground with dh.

Two things you might want to mention to him:

1. You don't reward tantrums and negative behaviours with lots of attention. MiL sulked and cried. No way do you indulge her with a whole meeting to talk about it! Ignore completely. That behaviour can't be allowed to work for her. If he doesn't get that one straight Dd is going to have a field day for the next 15 years with him. "Daddy if you don't do what I say I'll sulk and not talk to you like Grandma does".

2. Does he think MiL is showing love for Dd when she demonstrates to her face ignoring and disrespecting her parents? How confusing and disturbing is that for a young child? What is that going to do to splitting Dd's loyalties? Does he want Dd manipulated like this as he has clearly been? Is it ok for him for Dd to be in a room where Grandma is being so disrespectful and belittling to her mother? How long does he expect it to be before Dd picks up that this is how you treat mummy and daddy and internalises that they are stupid and lower in the pecking order than Grandma as Grandma is powerful enough to control them. Because she will.

God what a vile woman! Stick to your guns whatever you do!

Not being mentioned on FB-meh!

Comment about your daughter looking cold-did it really matter if you knew that she was OK?

She did it & you rose to it.

I can completely see why & I suppose you were hoping to say one thing & stop her for the rest of the day, but I think it does on this occasion come across as you being rude.

The blanking you later was of course rude on her part & I think I would tell your husband that there is no point in you seeing her just to be ignored so unless she's willing to at least be civil (as you were with her), then you won't be sseing her.

When she deides she can be civil (ie not ignore), let you know & you'll give it another go.

Sorry, I missed a page.

I agree that the meeting would be pointless.

Her sulk was about her son choosing you at the time & making her feel of no importance.

So, she made you feel the same at lunch.

You should have left!

If she can treat you both like that then why should either of you be bothered about your daughter seeing her?

she blanked me ... she even asked FIL to ask me to pass her the salt.

OMG. She's a fucking loon. How rude. And childish. Agree to no family meeting.

Well done for standing up for yourself. Great job.

Update us on how dh's chat with his mum goes...

I'm hesitant to post this as it may well be awful advice. I'm probably a bit too close to a similar situation to be objective.
It strikes me that your DH is caught between the two women who are important to him right now. He said he feels sorry for his DM and I'm guessing that is because while he's seeing anger from you, he's seeing a range of hurt, self pity etc from his DM.
Do you think it would help if you showed your DH your hurt and frustration and fear for what this is doing to your children? I'm NOT saying that you should be manipulative. It might take courage at the moment to take the risk of showing your vulnerable side to him when you don't fully trust him to act in your interests. But it is guaranteed that your MIL is laying it on thick.

Your mil sounds like a narcissist.

The problem is your Dh was raised by a narc and was trained to always focus on her and put her wants and needs above all others.

Now he has a wife and dd there is a power struggle but ultimately the only solution is for him to come to terms with who she is and reassess his own life in the light of how he has been parented.

I think you need to cut him some slack here. Try and take the heat out of it from your side and see her as a damaged person incapable of normal relationships. Draw your own lines in the sand but be wary of pushing him too hard too fast. Fine if you didn't have a dd you could walk away but he will always be her father so it's in all your interests for him to work how to deal with her and his own conditioning to always put her first. He needs to realise he's now a father before he is a son...

Your mil sounds like a narcissist.

The problem is your Dh was raised by a narc and was trained to always focus on her and put her wants and needs above all others.

Now he has a wife and dd there is a power struggle but ultimately the only solution is for him to come to terms with who she is and reassess his own life in the light of how he has been parented.

I think you need to cut him some slack here. Try and take the heat out of it from your side and see her as a damaged person incapable of normal relationships. Draw your own lines in the sand but be wary of pushing him too hard too fast. Fine if you didn't have a dd you could walk away but he will always be her father so it's in all your interests for him to work how to deal with her and his own conditioning to always put her first. He needs to realise he's now a father before he is a son...

Thanks again for responses.

Ive not stood up to MIL directly and sharply before, it's the first time in 2 years and there have been much worse comments made over this time. It was the straw that broke the camels back.

I'd explained to DH that I didn't want to go on the day out and warned him that I was in no mood for MIL'S meddling but he told me that it was too late to back out as tickets had been paid for etc.
As much as I have some empathy for DH and his situation I've come to a point where I'm so tired of not being listened to or taken seriously that I feel I have no choice other than to say that I no longer want to be in the company of MIL. I was always going to bite back at some point, surely? I'm a bit surprised by the people saying I was sharp and rude when she has been speaking to me in this way for such a long time and in much worse contexts that I'd had enough and did it right back.

Woofles: MIL fits the exact mould for narcissism. DH and I did a quiz on this around 12 months ago and even he spotted it. But again, it appears to have been brushed aside. DH wants me to 'tolerate her like we do.'
But then DH SIL and BIL snap sharply at her all the time and she never storms off an sulks, so I guess I'm not allowed to treat her like they do at all.
DH agrees that MIL is an utter control freak and is struggling not being in control anymore. She definitely tries to put herself in top peking order around DD... she will constantly divert DD'S attention away from me when I speak to her. She has a lot of issues which I feel she's projecting on to me and probably me snapping at her was exactly what was needed to put her back in her place. Atleast I won't be roped into anymore cosy days out! In regards to it being her birthday, I was aware that MIL was likely to play to the fact and antagonise me more, the FB status proved this. I'd therefore made the decision that my boundaries would be up ready, regardless of what day it was. I'm glad that they were.

I was always going to bite back at some point, surely?

At the end of a long road you have a choice: stand up for yoruself or roll over and become a doormat. Which would include not protecting your daughter btw; letting your MIL run rampant with her games.

So yes, you were always going to say Enough at some point. If you didn't, it would be much worse for your life and your daughter.

It sounds like you need a good break from her for now. In the future, what can sometimes work is actually calling the person on their silly, toxic behaviour. She'll hate it and she'll sulk and try to get her husband on side, but stick to your guns; challenge her calmly then if necessary remove yoruself from the situation for a time. There will be some right storms but eventually over time she might modify her behaviour (Toddler training!) If she doesn't, then much lower contact or perhaps in the long run severing contact would be the best option.

Your husband is in a very difficult place. Has someone already recommended Toxic In Laws and Toxic Parents? They are very good books and have some really helpful stuff in.

Good on you! A bully is a bully. I hate this excuse that because it's "family" you have to put up with it. I have a newborn ds myself and thankfully I get on with my mil. The only thing I've had issues is that I said I wasn't keen on ds photos being on Facebook and she uploaded one. If that is all I have to contend with I shall thank my lucky stars. Don't let your dh off the hook either

What both Woofles and onceameer have written.

I would agree that you were going to say no more at some point. You need to protect your DD as well from her malign influences. Narcissists are deplorably bad as grandparent figures; look at the damage she has done to her son who is your DH. Similar will be done to your child; she will try to steal her heart and soul from you right in front of your very eyes.

The problem you have with your DH is that he has been well trained to serve her and put his own needs and wants stone last. The only people that actually bother with narcissists are those who have received such special training i.e. the now adult children of same. He is well enmeshed with his mother. Really no-one else bothers with them; they really do not have any friends.

Would he want to read a book about narcissistic parents (the Narcissistic family by Stephanie Donaldson-Pressman is but one) or Toxic Parents as a starting point?.

Personally I don't think it's worth quitting a marriage over from what you've written, unless there's a lot more to it which is so often the case

I'd step back from his family and not stand in the way of him maintaining a relationship with his parents and your daughter.

I'd be firm on the boundaries of never wanting to to see her again and that he eithe meets them elsewhere or they come to yours when you aren't around and better be gone before you get back and that this is firm and not to push you.

'The problem you have with your DH is that he has been well trained to serve her and put his own needs and wants stone last. The only people that actually bother with narcissists are those who have received such special training i.e. the now adult children of same. He is well enmeshed with his mother'

My mother is similar to your MIL and its so true that you do grow up totally enmeshed with your narcissistic parent(s). They cannot see you as a separate person so you struggle to form an identify other than 'son' or 'daughter'. Your DH is likely feeling pulled in all directions by desperately trying to keep his mother happy (something he's been conditioned to do all his life) and trying to keep you from walking out. Its a horrendous situation to be in.

Having said all that, you are totally justified in feeling the way you do. Her behaviour is absolutely intolerable and yes, there was probably always going to come a day when you simply could not take it any longer. You do not have to put with her hideous behaviour and you are quite right to put your foot down. Well done on dodging the family meeting - that would have been unbearable for you. I really hope that your DH is able to find the strength to start detaching emotionally from his mother and start challenging her behaviour instead of accepting it.

About being sharp. People who come from pleasant families really do not know what it's like to deal with someone like this (fortunately!).

If you're -normally- a pleasant and polite person and being sharp is out of character then it's a one-off and not to be worried about. People who judge, don't see the whole picture. (If you're normally rather sharp then it's a different matter ofc ;) ).

Also a lot of people don't read the bit about this incident being part of a pattern. They read the details of one event and take it as it happening in isolation, despite the OP saying this is just an example of how things are all the time, which changes things. I've noticed that over and over.

Joysmum:
you are correct. DH and I have been trying to get our marriage on track for the last 6 months so we have a lot of other issues to contend with at the moment.

The situation with MIL couldn't have come at a worse time to be honest. One thing I've taken away from this thread though is to try and be a little more empathetic with DH, whilst maintaining my own position. Thanks for the (mostly) great points and advice.

I really do feel for you. It's hard to see your DH as a lifelong victim when you yourself have only had this fairly recently so haven't been conditioned to it and are able to see it for what it is and stand up for yourself...but he isnt ready to.

Whatever happens, I wish you all the best

I also agree with Joys- as far as your DH is concerned, this is normality.

I think the thing about being sharp was the timing. A group of family members made arrangements, bought tickets to celebrate a birthday. In spite of knowing what she's like you chose to pull off being sharp on that day, her birthday, in front of her husband and sons, who'd gone out their way to celebrate. I fully appreciate that she sounds a nightmare but choosing to do that on that day doesn't cover you in glory. The fact you were both checking Facebook on a family day out and getting upset what's on Facebook isn't your best moment either.

That said, my nana treated my mum badly and we went non contact for seven years and low contact thereafter so I fully recommend that as a solution.

I also think leaving your husband for this reason alone would be a big mistake. This is something that's resolvable with him if you keep negotiating, but still sticking to your own non contact for a period of time being non negotiable.

Best of luck.

How has it been going Dolly?

Not a lot to report. I've backed off with DH and I'm letting him come to terms with everything. Although I'm a little worried about him as he's very subdued and upset. Haven't heard anything from PILS but I guess the long weekend will be our first test.
I've removed myself from all family social media groups in which MIL is a member too and removed her from my FB so that she can no longer use it as a forum to antagonise the situation. I've been reading up a lot on narcissism and she has it without a doubt. DH is struggling hugely to accept it though and doesn't want to read up on the disorder.