Do dads that won't pay maintenance care about their children?

[donners312]

Just that really, I have posted a few times about my STBXH.

I would be interested if there is a way to see that men who won't pay do care and love their children as it is very hard to live with the fact that they really just don't seem to care?

I haven't read the whole thread but wanted to give my take on it.

When DP and his ex divorced they agreed he would pay x amount which was at the time around 20% of his salary which more than covered half of all expenses for his DD. He's had a few pay rises and only pays around 15% of his salary but DP's ex is very vocal and if she wanted more money she would tell him and he would have no qualms paying more if what he was currently paying didn't cover half of everything. He also regularly pays for things like when she needs clothes / shoes / uniform etc. on top of maintenance. I think yes sometimes 15% is a measly amount - my ex was paying 15% that worked out at £120 a month which doesn't even come close. But sometimes 15% can be more than enough depending on where you live - we're lucky to live in a very cheap area. I would never get involved with the finances in terms of child maintenance as that's between DP and his ex and as long as he's doing right by his daughter I don't care how much that means he pays. I can't understand anyone who dislikes their DP paying - doesn't that make you wonder what would happen if you had DC with him and split up? Also this nonsense about maintenance paying for holidays. Get real, it really doesn't. It's just that once the RP has paid half (or in most cases more than half!) Of all the child related expenses they have money left over - why shouldn't they be able to spend some of that money on themselves.

I think it's unfair that NRP's are expected to contribute half of the rent for the RP - even if they only have 1/2 overnights realistically they too need a bigger place. For example we have a bedroom here for DD. If it were just us two we would be in a one bedroom cheaper place but instead we have additional costs for DD. It's not reasonable to expect the NRP to pay half of the RP's rent and the rent on their bigger place too. I do however think it's reasonable for them to contribute enough so that they're helping with bills at the RP's as inevitably the RP will use more gas, electric, water etc.

My children have no idea how much money is spent on them either . They might know how much pocket money they get, or how much their clubs costs.

They have no idea about the mortgage, CT, utilities, insurances, household expenses , the costs of running a a car, holidays, birthdays and Christmas, food, clothes, school uniform, school expenses .

Children won't " see most of the maintenance " that is paid on them because they don't notice any of the above . That's because they are KIDS and they don't know any teenagers are pretty self centred and don't worry about any of these costs until they are living independently .

I don't know what the excuse is for the wilful ignorance of some of the adults on this thread .

Very reasonable points Faith.

What's coming across happy is you were happy for his ex to 'fail' at parenting so you would 'win' the best mother award tbh...

If your stepchildren were really being neglected when living with their mother then their father is at fault as well for allowing that situation to continue.

If that's not the reality of the situation you simply come across as the insecure new wife who feels the need to be critical of the ex and use the children to make herself feel better.

As I've said a number of times the right thing to do if you feel the children are being neglected in the care of the RP is to deal with that issue.

If you don't you either don't really care enough yourself or the children are not really being neglected - it's just an opportunity to play one upmanship at the expense of the children's emotional wellbeing.

I think its very hard to judge as its all on a case by case basis. When your earning around £1500 cash in hand a week (not paying tax) living with your parents and then your new girlfriend, not paying anything to them, then decide to sign on the dole so only pay £7 a week for 2 months (although its not your money in the first place but the taxpayers) for a baby iof 6 months, then sign off the dole (assuming cause you have been caught) and not give anything then for 3 months, you really don't give a shit. But of course have the money to splash out living it up and pay for a solicitor for months for access, because your a bully and you want everything on your terms and cant think about what is in the best interest for the baby, then NO your don't care about your child, but want to get back at the mother!!!

faith - I think you made my point about rent in a more articulate way than me!

happy - I can understand parts of what you are saying as sadly DPs ex also puts the kids in scraggy old stuff while making sure she is kitted out in new designer gear and yes has just bought a brand new car (all whilst complaining how hard it is for her.) She gets £800-£900 per mth from us which is MORE than enough for half the costs of raising the kids. (She has a small mortgage as had a huge deposit after DPs divorce.)

However I don't agree that other partners income should be taken into account and tbh if you're not even paying the maintenance anymore then just be grateful and start enjoying some of the holidays you can afford now you're not paying for his ex's!

essex - situations like yours sound truly awful. What a crap excuse of a man to be earning all that and not supporting his child!!!

Im a greedy bitch apparently!! I had to return to work full time when LW one wasn't even 5 months because I couldn't afford mortgage, bills, etc on a part time wage. Luckily Im on OK money so don't need it from him, but that's irrelevant. Didn't even send him a Christmas Present, guessing that I would benefit from that somehow!! Some men are just plain selfish.

Somebody commented that their friend who is a RP could get a one bedroom for half the price they pay for their 2 bedroom. That's not the case where we live but even if it was why should that mean the NRP should pay half that person's rent? The argument of oh but the child / children spend most of their time at the RP's is irrelevant. We can't say to our landlady oh it's okay we're only paying you the one bedroom rate for most of the time as the other bedroom is unoccupied. Whether the child is there 1/7th of the time or 6/7th of the time the rent still costs the same.

I think for two caring parents who just happen to not love each other any more or for whatever reason can't live together any more, it's always going to be difficult sorting out finances and inevitably things are going to cost more separately than they did together. One would hope you could sort that out amicably and appreciate that both parents have additional costs they didn't have before (like both needing a two / three / whatever bedroom place) but as so often is the case one or the other ends up feeling bitter or resentful. And of course as demonstrated so often on here there are arsehole parents who genuinely don't care or put their hatred for their ex above their love for their children :(

Essex it is just that sort of sense of entitlement and sexism I have set up the campaign against.

When you live in a country where over 95% who have to use the CSA/CMS to access their legal entitlement to child support are female, you have a gender issue.

Where you have a society that deems a NRP 'compliant' if they pay less than £10 in total over a twelve week period, you have an a government cover-up as to the extent of the issue. How many of the 81% of 'compliant' parents are fully meeting their obligations?

When you live in a society where most NRPs don't even come close to meeting half the costs of raising a child/ren, you have exploitation, sexual discrimination and financial abuse, and that isn't including those who refuse to contribute.

When 4 billion pounds is owed in child maintenance arrears - you have a to try and change the whole societal mindset.

Not supporting your children in the fairest possible way you can manage -exploits women and children and compromises many lives as a result with long term repercussions.

This is a feminist and child poverty issue. The system that currently exists and its (predecessor) has left many feeling disempowered through a constant stream of failures and the unspoken message that we should tolerate gross unfairness because the system isn't backing us up.

petition.parliament.uk/petitions/126895

Here is the petition for all those who want this issue debated and to stand up for women's and children's rights.

We are Essex .

It's just to make a point that the CSA / CSM issue should not necessarily be a sexism issue.

There are bad mothers and bad fathers.

I have certainly come across some lousy mothers in my time - and lousy fathers.

Greed CAN be an issue - particularly where anger is present .

For example in our case we paid A LOT of maintainence to ex - wife ( not via CSA) and even paid pet maintainence for a long while to ensure they were looked after.

In her anger ex wife decided she would try to get even more and went to the CSA .

It did not go in her favour and they instructed DH to pay the 20%.

It was so needless to involve the CSA and incidents like this aren't isolated - it's just that the media portrays fathers are not paying maintainence. That just isn't true.

The people they need to go after are the ones that just bolt and provide no support.

Yes I totally agree, the system is highly unfair and there is nothing in place like in America, where licenses are taken, put in prison, etc. I have been told that my case with CMS is on going (he is not taking their calls or returning their messages), they may take legal action once it reaches over £500, but given they are still basing his maintenance figure on the £7 from the benefits (which he hasn't been receiving since January) its going to take a while. They have put a flag with the inland revenue so every 14 days they check if he has suddenly got a job and paying taxes. I have to return to court about access and been told by my solicitor it will not be possible to bring up child maintenance as its 2 separate issues, I will however be asking how he thinks he can afford to support my child when he is with him, given he has no form of income!!|!

Haven't finished reading the latest comments yet faith but please re-read my post. I never suggested the NRP should pay half the RP's rent.

And even if the rent is a sticking point for you, removing the rent entirely from the situation I outlined makes no difference...50% of the childcare alone more than wipes out the NRP's contribution.

It was this comment I was referring to:

Not that it really makes much of a difference to the total scenario but a single person could quite easily rent a room for half of what he (my friend is a resident father) pays for his 2 bed place currently. He could get a studio flat with the bills included for not very much more.

And no I don't think NRP should pay a quarter. Yes that's for the child but they too have accommodation costs for the child. Does that mean the RP should pay a quarter of the NRP's rent?

And I meant in general cases as opposed to your specific case. I do think rent should be removed from the equation completely in all scenarios but that the NRP should pay for half of all other costs

It is a sexist issue. The figures support this.

I'm not talking about all scenarios faith, just this particular one. And as the NRP doesn't house the child at all, why should the costs of housing the child be disregarded for the purpose of maintenance?

Not single fathers, though. Single fathers are seen as heroes

Really? Not in our case. He has been called all sorts of names for 'taking the childrent from their mother' amongst other suggestions such as he must have bullied her into it etc etc etc.

Truth is very very different. She neglected my DSC, had SS involvement and court ordered supervised contact which she has never bothered with.

ExW has never paid a penny towards her DC nor are we ever likely to.

Another parent campaigning against this social injustice-
www.chariswilliams.co.uk/project/706/

This highlights some of the failures in the current system.

Correction you can pay a penny once every 12 weeks and be deemed to be 'compliant'.

www.theguardian.com/news/datablog/2013/may/16/parents-paying-child-maintenance-csa-statistics

Fair enough elderly in that instance it shouldn't be disregarded but I think it's unfair that most people think even when the NRP does have the DC overnight they should still pay a disproportionate amount of rent for the RP.

Also the 1/7th off if you have the child one night a week makes no sense. So the NRP should pay half of all costs for 6/7 and 100% of costs 1/7 - umm what?! And if you have 50:50 no maintenance is paid but if one parent has 4 nights and the other 3 nights the one with 3 essentially pays for 5/7ths of the cost of raising the child. How's that fair?

I agree with that faith. The system really isn't tailored enough to account for each scenario. I'm not sure I've ever heard of a CMS case where each parent genuinely pays half of the costs overall. Usually it's the RP that is left at a disadvantage but I concede that there are scenarios where the balance can swing the other way.

Of course, ideally the parents would work together, compromise and be amicable in order to ensure they contribute equally to the child's needs. But where that happens, there's no need for CMS...the cases that reach them are largely situations where at least 1 of the parents isn't capable of this. It was the lesser of the evils in my case. I tried a mutual agreement with my ex and come the date of the first agreed payment, he not only didn't transfer the amount we agreed was fair, he actually only gave 1/4 of what CMS would have ordered.

Even with 50/50 custody over here the NRP still has to pay child support as the RP usually still ends up paying most of the costs but the RP's income is taken into account so I guess it even things out a bit.

No CM after 5 months, no Christmas Presents or 1st Birthday card/presents, but yes of course he cares!! hmm

My experience is of a very bitter and resentful ex. I finished with him after years of an abusive, co-dependent relationship. No one has ever really said 'no' to him, and I did. He began immediately trying to punish me by disrupting child care (at that time he was SAHP, not through choice but through lots of factors including having lost his licence for drink driving).

I stood firm, rearranged all the care without him in the picture and he was outraged that I didn't beg him for help (I work FT). At that point he was seeing the dc but paying nothing as per (he was a cocklodger when with me, amongst other things).

Anyway, long story short, everything deteriorated to the point that he stopped seeing the dc 22 months ago. He blames me for this, of course.

It's all to do with resentment at me, as far as I can make out. He has failed to grasp that the dc are separate people from me. He is a fool.

As a result, I had to pursue him through the CMS. He lied to them about his income (cash in hand jobs etc). I still don't get why anyone would not want to support their dc, but hey ho.

Now, after a period on the dole, when they assessed him as having to pay me £6.72 a week for BOTH dc, he is apparently on the books with an employer. I will have to wait for his contribution to be reassessed upwards, plus he's in arrears so now they are going for an attachment of earnings.

In short, this man gives no f*s about his children, and is just desperate to 'get one over' on me. He must be very unhappy deep down.