how to tell her no

[crunchynutclustersdevilswork]

A family friend of DH’s who lives abroad (best friend of his older sister) came to stay with us three weeks ago when she was in London for business. We don’t/didn’t know her that well, but as she’s such a long standing friend of SIL, we wanted to honour SIl’s friendship with her and put her up so she didn’t have to pay for a hotel in London.

We showed her a good time, took her out for some nice meals, and spent quite a lot of our family time with her. It was the first time she had met our DC and she made a beeline for our DD (2yrs) who is very friendly and open. While she was here, she repeatedly asked if she could take DD out alone. We made excuses – mostly because we knew that DD usually cries when she is left with someone she doesn’t know and we didn’t want this woman to feel awkward – until the last day we agreed she could take DD for a walk around the park for 20 mins , and things seemed to be okay. We enjoyed her company too and we made a real effort and waved her off a few weeks ago agreeing that we’d pop in on her, next time we are in the country where she lives. We envisaged that would be in a couple of years time, if at all.

Since she left she has been repeatedly emailing me saying that she misses us, and misses DD most of all. I’ve replied a little bit saying hope she’s doing well, but really not encouraging a dialogue. There have been so many messages that I have actually just ignored a few because they just say things like "I am missing XXX (Dd's name) so much...." and I really can't think of what to say to that considering she has met DD once.

Last week she contacted me again saying she is due back in the UK and wants to stay with us again. While we liked her, we have no desire to share our house again for another week with someone we have to entertain. We no longer have a spare room, either, so it was a perfect excuse. I told her (and now regret this) that unless she was prepared to sleep on the hard floor, we had absolutely no room and we were really sorry but we could not put her up.

Obviously she replied saying she was prepared to sleep on the floor.

DH and I deliberated and decided to tell her that it was really not convenient for us, we would be very busy most days and staying away from the house for a few nights this week (this is technically true.) That if she really had nowhere else to go, she could sleep on the floor for maybe two nights, and get the key from one of our neighbours to let herself in.

She replied saying her business trip was very flexible so she would wait until we returned the week after, and come for a week then.

I didn’t reply to this message. She’s followed up with a few other messages explaining that her priority is to spend time with us and alone time with DD.

I’m starting to find it all a bit weird. Dh wants to give her the benefit of the doubt because he’s known her (via his DSis) forever and she’s a family friend. We also don’t want to upset Dsis by rejecting her friend. Both she and Dsis are unmarried and childless and DH’s other point is that it’s quite likely she is lonely and just wants to be part of a family atmosphere.

I also found out today that she had given the impression to DD's childminder (when she met her, as she was living in our house!) that she was DD's second mother and extremely close to DD. And that she (the childminder) didn't really need to be around if she (SIL's best friend) was there to take care of DD, and actually suggested she go home! Although this was an "impression" given, not a direct quote.

Also, the culture that DH, SIL and she are from pride themselves on their “hospitality” and DH said that she would probably not consider it abnormal if we just turned up to the city she lives in and expect bed and board.

Regardless, I am now uncomfortable with her obsession with DD and her focus on spending intense time with us where we are forced into a position of giving her attention. I know that allowing her to stay and then passive aggressively not giving her the same treatment as last time or refusing to let her be alone with DD will just be confusing behaviour for her, so I have to be clear and kind.

Sometimes when I see threads about how to tell someone something, a poster comes up with an ingenious way to phrase something that I would never have thought of, which doesn’t cause offence, and I’m hoping someone can help me out here with some phrasing or boundary setting I can use…

If I repeatedly say it is inconvenient, she will just postpone until the next time

I'm terribly sorry but it won't be convenient to have visitors to stay for the foreseeable future I'm afraid. Do let us know when you are over on your business trip and DH and I but not our children will try and meet up for a meal. you scary weirdo

No good turn goes unpunished, eh ? < humpf >

I would be straight to the point, even rude if necessary. Tell her NO! She cannot stay at any time.

(Also, hadn't thought of til I saw a pp, would you worry about saying no if a man was obsessed with dd?)

sorry but it all sounds a bit "Hand That Rocks The Cradle" to me. Sad that she's obviously lonely but I don't think that's your problem, you were very kind to let her stay but I think she's overstepped the mark now so I think you need to distance yourselves from her. Good luck!

Just send 1 last message telling her your situation has changed (there is no spare room) and it is no convenient for her to stay but hope she has a good trip then ignore. It's way to intense and a bit creepy

i wrote back being even vaguer and said we have no idea of plans this week and things were all over the place. She has replied saying that she wouldn't want to be in our house with us and dd not there so she will see if she can wait it out in her work hotel until we know our plans.

I said we (me and DH) can meet her for dinner out on thurs night but staying over will not be possible at all and dd not around. She replied that she was disappointed but would still meet us lucky us! But then sent me two Facebook messages and a wats app tonight saying she misses dd and cannot believe she came all this way and will not get to see her. I haven't replied, of course. But if she brings it up in person I will laugh and say she has only met dd once and that I am surprised she is so attached.

I am totally creeped out by this. I don't know what has caused this.

I know that we were very generous to her last time. We arranged social events, old friends of hers came to our house and we hosted them. She passed a photo album around of when she was a young woman and got lots of compliments from everyone. We were interested in her and had long chats, cooked her meals, served her tea and happily listened to her stories. We included her completely in family life, as you would do with anyone staying, but she just seems to have not noticed the effort we put in was exceptional a now believes that she is part of the family.

With the dd thing, it's either that she wants that family life so much but doesn't want to admit it so is trying to take some justifiable role or purpose in the family for herself (ie as dd's godmother/second mother type thing) or she is genuinely obsessed with dd.

I thought she was coming for a business trip. Your last post reads as if her sole purpose of her trip was to spend time with your DD.

I have an unmarried SIL who likes spending time alone with my very young children. When we and our extended family are together, she will often ask my DD to leave the room to go to another (empty) room with her. Originally I thought it was rude and then I became very uneasy about it. I made DH promise to try and interrupt her alone time. He reported back that whenever he entered the room, SIL wasn't doing anything more than quizzing DD, asking her questions about what she had been up to during the week. I know SIL would like her own children and it is unlikely she will have any but it still made me very upset to see her ferrying DD out of the room we were in and I have done my best to stop it. Part of me wonders if she thinks if she befriends her, DD will 'look after her' in her old age. SIL can be awkward socially and asks invasive questions and while I want to remain on good terms with her, it will not at the expense of my daughter.

OP thats a bit off topic but I wrote it as perhaps your unwanted guest is similar? Either way, I would not allow a relationship of any sort to be entered into. Nip it in the bud early on.

I think you said the right thing to her and I would continue to ignore any further text messages. I would be a little concerned that she will arrive unannounced at your door and if that should happen, I'd grab your DD and your coats and say you were just setting off for an appointment/visit to your family etc.

With the dd thing, it's either that she wants that family life so much but doesn't want to admit it so is trying to take some justifiable role or purpose in the family for herself (ie as dd's godmother/second mother type thing) or she is genuinely obsessed with dd.

Even now, given what everyone has written and what you surely must know deep down in your heart .. you are still trying to give her the benefit of the doubt.

Her behaviour is not right, normal, acceptable on any level and I am truly shocked you can't see that. You will meet her for dinner? You reply being 'even vaguer than ever' in a weak attempt to get her to back off.

Here's the thing. Just tell her to back off. Better still .. tell her to fuck off!

If she wants a 'family life', she's had/has the choice or chance to make one. Not obsess over yours. Her only connection to you is that she is a friend of your husband's sister. That's it. End of. And you were kind enough to put her up when she was in your city for work.

What is going on here with this woman is batshit crazy and if you can't see that, then mumsnet and all the collective responses to this thread, have failed you.

You don't need to meet her for dinner, put her up, let her take your daughter around the park, spout bullshit to your childminder, bombard you with emails, facebook, whatsapp etc. be vague, kind and give benefits of the doubt.

You just need to tell her ... a big fat, categoric, firm, no-nonsense NO!

Just say, no, won't get to see you after all.

And then ghost.

Seriously, she's your SIL's friend from another country. You don't owe her anything.

This is really creepy. The woman seems to have an unhealthy obsession with your DD and have lost touch with reality.

Just ghost her. I don't think reason or even firmness are going to get you anywhere with someone who is not currently operating in the same reality.

"Sometimes when I see threads about how to tell someone something, a poster comes up with an ingenious way to phrase something that I would never have thought of, which doesn’t cause offence"
Sadly, I think there is no way to do this without risking offence. She sounds a bit obsessive. I fear my suggestion is not ingenious, but I'm sure others will be along to improve on it.

"the culture that DH, SIL and she are from pride themselves on their “hospitality” and DH said that she would probably not consider it abnormal if we just turned up to the city she lives in and expect bed and board."
Then your best chance to dissuade this woman is to cite 'cultural differences'. Make it about you not her. And that means that DH has to take no part in this response, it must come from you and you only.

"

Or ghost her. Be unavailable. In fact, you're going to have to be rude.

Ime with a similar but not similar situation, having any kind of detailed, respectful conversation was a mistake. Think FLOODS of tears.

Btw I know of two British women who are childless and who have taken (what I consider) an unhealthy interest in someone else's dc. And, altho I've had my own children (who are now grown) it's not hard for me to become besotted with lo's. I just know to reign it in /wait for it to pass /behave appropriately.

Imo this is a clash of not just culture but also this woman's childless state. sad, but not ultimately your responsibility. Subtlety is simply not going to cut it - she sees nothing wrong with it. Whereas you do.

Btw the FLOODS of tears, above, was accompanied by accusations against me personally. Iiwy I'd wouldn't go there.

Bloody hell!! She has a very unhealthy attachment to your family.

¨ghost¨? Dunno what that means...

You´ve just said you feel totally creeped out by her and now you´re going for dinner? You´ve arranged to meet her? You´ve got text and FB communication? All you´re doing is encouraging her and digging yourself a bigger hole!

Everyone on here is telling you to just stop this madness, tell her there will be no more contact as you find her interest in your daughter very off-putting ( it doesn´t have to be War and Peace, just tell her straight ), and who cares what her reaction is or if her feelings are hurt in the process? I wouldn´t give a toss! No scrabbling around for excuses so you look better, nothing. Just tell her no more contact. Simple.

All your instincts as a mother are yelling at you and you´re still encouraging this madwoman! I would certainly block her number and delete from FB as soon as you´ve told her. You´re making this so much more complicated than it need be. And now you´ve gone and arranged dinner whereby you have to be pleasent to her.....She´s gonna keep coming to London and expect to see you so I suggest you deal with this quickly.

She´s not even family for crying out loud. And you can tell your SIL the reasons for cutting contact after you´ve done so, just to be clear. She´s intruding on your family life big time, behaving inappropriately ( culture difference irrelevant ) and you seem to think you have this obligation to her. Who says? You did 1 favour. It´s done, that´s it. If you´d known you would be expected to keep repeating this favour regularly would you have thought it worth the hassle in the 1st place??

Block her on FB.

I think what pocketsaviour said was perfect actually.

i wrote back being even vaguer and said we have no idea of plans this week and things were all over the place.

Stop being vague, pull up your pants and tell her you don't want to see her. You need to be very direct. In fact you need to be rude, because she is clearly ignoring the boundaries you are putting in place. This is something that potential abusers frequently do - "They don't hear your no". The Gift of Fear would be a good book to read on this point.

looki
He reported back that whenever he entered the room, SIL wasn't doing anything more than quizzing DD, asking her questions about what she had been up to during the week.
So your SiL was talking to your child and gaining their trust. This can be part of a long grooming phase. An abuser doesn't just meet a child and the first time they get them alone, attack them. Don't let her take your DD out alone.

I feel like I'm standing in this thread waving an enormous flag and lots of posters probably think I'm being horribly alarmist. I have worked with hundreds of survivors of abuse for many years, I'm a survivor myself. Every single survivor I've ever worked with was abused by someone who had a) built up trust over a period and b) was a family member, family friend, or in a trusted authority position eg tutor. Female abusers are far more common than is acknowledged. Your duty as a parent is to protect your child. Which would you prefer - momentary social embarrassment by being unBritishly direct, or your child being targeted by an abuser?

What Fontella said op
Tell the truth or you will never get rid of her

PocketSaviour
Exactly this! Don't give anyone the benefit of the doubt in this situation.
I'd rather be over cautious & rude

There's an analogous situation going on in a colleagues life just now. The coaches at her daughters sports team are shaming the girls for what they eat, pushing a really unhealthy lchf diet (which is fine for adults but not growing athletes!) they have a closed FB group where they are effectively engaging in encouraging excessive slimness (over athletic ability) and the girls have been told not to tell their parents. Food is compared/shamed etc
I'm trying to get my colleague to see that this is a massive, massive red flag. Adults in a position of trust with an unhealthy obsession with teen girls bodies plus secrecy. It's a small step from 'don't tell your mum about this' to 'our little secret, eh?'

Pocket is 100% right. This behaviour is really worrying. Sh doesn't ever see your daughter again.

If this was a man, would you react differently?

Unhappy how worrying!
Could you anonymously tip the school off this is happening? Your colleague doesn't even have to know you've told them

I see this so many times on here, with posters tying themselves in knots trying to be polite and inoffensive in dealing with other people's bizarre and completely unreasonable demands.

I know it's easy to criticise when it's not your life, but it is so frustrating to watch people allowing their boundaries to be trampled over.

I don't think you need to go out of your way to be rude but you do need to tell this woman, very clearly and directly, that she is not coming to stay and that her obsession with your daughter makes you very uncomfortable.

She is not a relative, or even a friend, you don't ever have to see her again so what is stopping you?

Dear all, thanks for your responses.

DH has contacted her and told her that he cannot meet her, no explanations, no nice letting down etc. Exactly as you have said.

it is not true that this is someone who is 'nothing' or a 'stranger' to me or us. She is part of our lives because she is SIL's longstanding friend, and we are a close family.

Because DH has let go of a lot of the keeping in touch he should be doing with friends since he got married (I believe that some men do this), people tend to contact me to get in touch with DH. So it's hard for me to judge, initially, who is important and who isn't - who DH actually wants to see and who he doesn't. He is quite neutral about everybody, until there is a reason he cannot be anymore.

Me pointing out her obsession with DD pushed him into taking responsibility for communicating with her, so that SIL's response to us turning her down has to be dealt with by DH and not me.

So no I'm not ignoring the "grooming" of my DD, I was just unsure how to approach it because it was a sensitive family matter.