abusive son - quite long but desperately need advice

[purplenights]

My son (22) has always had an aggressive side and tbh I generally feel I have to walk on eggshells with him as he can be unpredictable. Historically he can get angry at inconsequential things and now he is an adult (he's 22 and still living at home) he has turned into the alpha male of the family (I have 2 daughters also living at home).

Last night he and his girlfriend were having a night in, and we had a nice evening watching tv. When he went up to bed, he discovered that one of our dogs had shat on his bed (I'd like to add that this is an unusual thing to have happened and the dogs are house trained). He absolutely exploded, swearing, threatening to 'kick the fucking dog' and generally being aggressive. His gf and I laughed it off, told him not to leave his bedroom door open and between us we changed the bedding. DS continued to shout and rant about chucking the dog down the stairs at which point I told him to stop over-reacting. He began to shout at me to get out of his fucking bedroom. I asked him to not swear and shout at me please, to which he replied fuck off fuck off fuck off repeatedly. I began to back off but decided to alpha him and so stepped into his personal space and said clearly 'please do not speak to your mother like that' he said 'well I just did so fuck off' and pushed me out of his room.

At this point (sorry this is quite long) my younger daughter (19) came into his room and shouted 'do not push her or shout at her like that, she's your mother'. She went to push him back and he grabbed her in a headlock and threw her on the bed holding her in a headlock. I was shouting at him to get off her, but DD said bravely, 'its ok mum, i'm not scared of him'. DD got up and pushed his chest, and he responded by putting his hands around her neck and pushing her out of the bedroom and then shoved her against the wall with his hands round her neck. I was shouting at him to get off her - her face was going red. He let go and shoved her against the wall again and left the house in his car.

Later I heard his GF speaking to him on the phone and he returned and went to bed. They have gone out for the day now with ExH who I have briefly given details of last night to. He said 'I'll deal with it'.

I just don't know what to do. I am so sorry this post is so long and hope that some people may have some advice. Should just add that ExH from whom I am amicably divorced is still very much present in our lives (we divorced 10 years ago).

[NewStartNow]

Counselling is not usually successful with abusive men. I've recently come out of an abusive relationship so done a lot of reading on the subject in an effort to understand. I've just read 'why does he do that?' By Lundy Bancroft and it's spot on and eye-opening. Counselling is successful in less than one in ten cases.
Your reporting him to the police is the best possible thing you could have done. At least if a partner uses claires law in the future she'll learn about his history of violence.

[shockthemonkey]

My God. Brilliant work, purple. Am thinking of you and hoping that this is the first step to a happier and safer life for you, your daughters and your dogs.

[Sanchar]

Good god! I can imagine how heartbreaking it must be but you must keep this man out of your house. Neither you, your daughters or your dogs are safe when he is there.

Let your ex deal with him and put a roof over his dangerously unpredictable head.
And definitely follow through with the police, if you call the police off he will only be encouraged to carry on with this behaviour as he will know there will be minimal consequences.

[TheOptimisticPessimist]

Well done Purple it can't have been easy but it was absolutely the right thing to do.

Don't let your idiot ex sway your conviction either - they're minimising. Just keep repeating it to yourself if what they say starts to make sense.
No one has a right to shove, strangle, attack or verbally abuse people because they're 'stressed' or 'upset'. He did it because he's a violent bully and nothing else. The more they try and justify it,the more you realise just how messed up their thinking is. It's toxic.

I hope you and your DD managed to get a good night sleep last night and don't have busy days today, I think quiet ones are in order!

[Fugghetaboutit]

Sure. But the OP and her family are at risk. So she's supposed to let him stay at her house - and by the way, do tell me how she's supposed to drag a physically abusive 22 yo male to counselling - and pat him on the head while helping him deal with his problems inbetween abusive episodes. Yeah, ok.

What TERRIBLE advice.

I think you have put words in my mouth just a little bit here.

She is ABSOLUTELY right to have reported him and asked him to leave (my previous post says that too) but after the police have done with him, then what? I doubt the op will go NC with her son after what I've picked up on. So I was just suggesting he needs help with his behaviour while he's still young.
Also where did I say she should pat him on the head? His behaviour was deplorable and should never be forgiven.

[Fugghetaboutit]

Don't ever make me out to be a DV apologist again, Darth.

[goodnightdarthvader1]

Don't ever make me out to be a DV apologist again, Darth.

Now YOU're putting words in my mouth. Did I actually say that? Please point out where I said that. Save your righteous anger.

Nowhere in your post did you acknowledge that the OP should kick the kid out. So don't blame me for your inability to clearly express yourself, ta.

[Fontella]

Well done Purple!

You have done the right and best thing I promise you.

You will wobble and get 'sad' at times ... but say strong.

I have been where you are and kicked my son out - and it turned out to be the best thing for all of us.

x

[hereandtherex]

How can he be an 'alpha male' when he still lives at home with his mum?

Tell him to p1ss off and stand on his own 2 feet.

[Fugghetaboutit]

The 'pat him on the head' bit was trying to make me out as an apologist.

Nowhere in your post did you acknowledge that the OP should kick the kid out.

My post included: Well done for telling him to leave. Your dd stood up for you during the argument and it got her attacked, and you now must do the same for her and call the police on him. so yes I did acknowledge it.

[ricketytickety]

You only got in his space to stop his abusive behaviour with the dog. There is absolutely no excuse for his aggression. Verbal or physical. Don't let him or his father try to excuse it or victim blame you or your daughter.

What they are actually saying is they have no control over their aggression so woe betide anyone who comes too close.

Has anyone ever heard of an abuser 'changing' after counselling? Does it actually happen? Maybe anger management might help him. But not if he's got his dad telling him it's his victims' fault for getting too close to him!

It's incredibly brave of you to call the police and have him leave. You are doing this for him as much as you and your family. It's a clear message of what is acceptable and what isn't. What he does with this message is his own perogative. I hope it is the beginning of him realising what is right and what is wrong. His father is a terrible influence, unfortunately.

[MoominPie22]

Fugg I hear what you´re saying, cos the prat clearly does need to change, and everybody might differ in how they would deal with this situation.

In my personal view, anything to do with bringing up counselling should be instigated by the father in this instance. Firstly because he has/is having it himself due to him also being an aggressive bully, and secondly because same sex parents are always the biggest influence on a young child ( assuming they´re around when the kid is growing up obv ). And we can see where being the biggest influence has got this son so far! It´s no coincidence he´s a bully like his dad is it?

So, as stated in my prev post, the dad could have a real influence here on where this goes and possibly changing the son´s attitude as he could lead by example. That´s if he has changed mind, cos I´m a tad doubtful of that. It´s just that he´s no longer living with the OP so can´t bully her any longer so it may just appear that he has indeed changed/improved with the counselling.

Obviously a big part though is accepting responsibility and admitting you´re at fault in the first place. So the ex must´ve presumably done that much in order to go to counselling. Unless he was just paying lip-service to the idea of course.

The OP says they´ve been divorced 10yrs so the son would´ve been 12yrs when they split. So I´m presuming the ex was a prime influence on how his son developed during those formative years. The ex would´ve also shown that women are to be treat with disdain and disrespected etc. I´m kinda surprised it was an amicable divorce at all given the sort of emotionally abusive bully she describes.

I feel Purple´s primary concern should be the safety and happiness of her daughters, not whether the son receives counselling or not. Let the dad deal with that. I´m not sure if the dad and son even have a close relationship at all but I think he´s the only hope here cos the son sounds utterly unrepentant and his behaviour is justified to him. He even sounds like he despises his mother and sisters. That´s why I was querying misogyny.

You can still love your adult child but you don´t have to like them. Look at all the posts on this board about toxic parents. I feel it is entirely reasonable and justified to go NC with a family member, whoever they may be. At least until they can prove that they´ve changed.
It´d be different ( and trickier generally ) if this was a 15yr old boy, a minor, behaving this way and committing this crime. But I think the fact he´s an adult and capable of living independantly means it´s easier for the OP to deal with. He´s toxic, dysfunctional and I would be NC personally. Let´s see how long it takes for him to apologise shall we? But don´t let that sway you Purple. If it ever actually happens! Not holding my breath tbh.

[Fugghetaboutit]

Agree her daughter's safety and welfare come first, definitely. He sounds a lot like my brother with the alpha male thing but he's never been violent. I doubt my mum would have handled it as well as the OP

[FantasticButtocks]

I don't think going NC is necessary. I couldn't refuse to talk to any of my children no matter what they'd done. But I do think if he wants to communicate with his mother and sisters, it can only be if he is speaking/behaving decently and with respect.

He certainly shouldn't have the opportunity to live with them though as long as he thinks this violent aggressive behaviour is fine. He is an adult of 22 and he can't live with you all and abuse you. If he wants to continue behaving in this way he needs to go elsewhere. That doesn't mean the op should go NC. Rather that boundaries need to be put in place as to what will and won't be tolerated.

[MoominPie22]

Fantastic Just stating what I would do, not what I think OP should do. Everyone´s different and has a different level of tolerance. As long as he has such a hateful attitude and is generally disrespectful ( telling them to drive off a cliff FFS?? ), not to mention the violence!, then I know I would be washing my hands of him. But that´s me. The dad has to actually make some effort and have some input at this point I feel.

The son is emulating the dad. The son has to learn there´s consequences. He´s too old for the Naughty Step isn´t he, so police, go NC and hopefully he will learn the hard way that decent people aren´t there purely for you to treat like shit and abuse. The world doesn´t owe him a living. He can bloody well behave with basic manners and respect to others imo. Only then, once he´s proven himself that he´s changed, would I entertain him again. But he would no longer be welcome in my house. Fuck that shit!

Just how I would deal with this in Purple´s shoes.

[Inertia]

Well done Purple. I hope your daughter has been given the all-clear medically, and you've been able to take practical safety precautions.

You can't do anything else for your son now. He has to want to change, and understand why there are laws against behaviour like his.

[neolara]

Well done. I imagine this is very difficult for you, but you really are doing the right think for everyone (including your son) by kicking him out and reporting him to the police.

[oneinten]

Purple. I just wanted to say I think you're doing the right thing by making DS leave and wished my parents had done the same when in was in a similar position to your DD. I know it must be really hard (especially when exH disagrees with you) but in the long this is definitely better for you and DD and probably also DS. I would also suggest that you ask him to get help with anger management if he wants to see you and DD.

Your DS sounds similar to how my DB was, but my parents always made excuses for DB. We all learned not to ask him to do anything, not to say anything he wouldn't like etc so his violence never escalated to the extent that I needed hospital treatment but bruising, hitting in the stomach etc were frequent. My parents still claim that this was just sibling rivalry and tell me that this happens in most families but other people are loyal enough not to talk about it.

Like your DD, I looked forward to university mainly as an escape from this. I eventually cut off all contact with DB when I had children as I did not want them exposed to someone so unpredictable. This put a huge strain on my relationship with my parents.

DB went on to be emotionally and physically abusive to his wife and would often IMO put his children in danger by smashing windows etc around them. He also became physically abusive to my mother. Yet still my parents made excuses- he had a drink problem by this stage which he used as an excuse, as well as stress from work, stress from not being in work, his wife being lazy, house in a mess, children being noisy etc etc.

I can't help wondering if things could have turned out differently if my parents had had the courage to take a stand as you have done.

[Borninthe60s]

He needs to leave home immediately.

[PregnantAndEngaged]

I can't offer advice I'm afraid, I just wanted to come in to say I'm really sorry this is happening to you. I was a victim of domestic violence from my own brother as a child and I regularly witnessed him abusing my mum. It went down the same route and I'm afraid to say it didn't get better; he got into alcohol and drugs and regularly came round threatening us, smashing our windows etc. I guess the only thing that can really help a 22 year old with such issues is self-help and recognising that what he is doing is wrong and perhaps going on anger management courses and things like that. But if he can't see it himself and this abuse is getting so extreme, especially as to put his hands round your daughters neck, I think at the very least the best thing you can do is to tell him he needs to go.

[goodnightdarthvader1]

fugg

If my ds was like that I would want to at least try and help him change so hell have a chance of changing for the better. Hence why I suggested he has individual counselling or CBT to change his response/help his temper and sounds like the freedom project would help him too.
Isn't it better to try and change abusive young men so less women are abused surely?

THAT is the post I responded to, which just talks about counselling and not about kicking him out. So in that post, no, you didn't mention it.

"Pat him on the head" was referring to OP mollycoddling him for his behaviour while waiting for counselling, not making you out to be a DV apologist.

[Fugghetaboutit]

Fair enough. But I had already stated he needed to leave and police be called so didn't need to repeat it. I was just elaborating on your reply about counselling. I would help him access anger management or CBT if he were my son. I would not leave him for abusive ex to deal with.

[wannabestressfree]

He has to want help though and recognise he has an issue which he doesn't.

[HermioneJeanGranger]

Well done, OP. I'm really glad you got your son to leave.

I hope things are okay with DD at the GP and with the police today. Take care of yourselves and take all the help the police offer. They're on your side

[ncpg53]

I'm so pleased that you took action OP.

How are you and your DD'S feeling today? I believe 100% you have done the right thing for all concerned including your son.

Perhaps if my mother had taken action I'd have a relationship with her now and my brother might have been given a wake up call.

It's a sorry situation but none of this is your fault. The post previous saying you shouldn't have gotten in his space is a joke. Does that mean he's allowed to act and do as he pleases without consequences just because it's his room? No it doesn't regardless of what took place him hitting someone especially to the point of throttling is abuse and he needs help before he does serious harm to someone.