A different question related to consent

[Justlurkingaround]

OK, I'm going to risk posting some very personal thoughts prompted by another thread. I don't think this is a TAAT and I hope its not disrespectful to the OP. There is a very sad thread about consent, with some great advice for the OP in what is very clearly a very wrong situation.

My experience is very far from this...and to me not clear at all.

I've been struggling to get back into sex after 2nd child. DH decided he was going to put the affection back into our relationship. One of the things he did was to "spoon" up to me each bedtime, pressed into me with his hand on my breasts. Very tired I tried shifting his hand but he put it back more firmly saying we needed to be affectionate. I felt told off. He did this several nights. I lay there frozen, feeling awful, like i had no say, and a week later had sex so he'd stop hassling me.

He would definitely be shocked to know this has made me miserable. He probably thought he was helping me. He even said we didn't have to have sex when he saw i was reluctant. Is the misery my fault for not being assertive? I hope he is not reading this as it would make him sad.

I have nowhere else to ask though and have lost all ability to judge anything.

I wonder if I was unfair to have sex when I didn't really want to. That must be hurtful.

Also what you've described was on purpose. He knew what he was doing. It wasn't an accident and he didn't care what you wanted.

OK. I get it.

Agree with PPs.

What do you mean he tells you it's all about YOUR communication?

As a PP says, when he said "affection" he obviously meant his sexual gratification.

I very much agree with others about the unpleasant self he has revealed through his actions. I also find it ugly that he is reclaiming his (literal) hold on your breasts. He's reclaiming you as his property, taking your breasts back from motherhood, saying you belong to him not the dc. He calls groping like that being "affectionate"?? Pfftt ...

I'm outraged on your exhausted behalf.

I'd try communicating to him that having your breasts groped, while you lie there tensely, makes you feel like elbowing him in the bollocks.

You could either put this into words or actions.

But he won't have acted on purpose. If he knew I feel like he groped me and I felt pressured into sex he would feel like I was suggesting something very unpleasant about him.

He has acted on purpose IMO but you are correct that he would not like you calling him out on it whatever he has/hasn't done.

If he doesn't realise what he has done is groping and pressuring then he is dangerous. If he does realise he has decided to do it anyway and is dangerous.

Of course this is only my opinion, but 'affection' does not equal sex. Affection does not equal foreplay. Affection can lead to foreplay and/or sex, but doesn't expect or demand it. To me 'being affectionate' usually means actions without the idea of sex as the 'end game'. If my DH were to say 'we need to be more affectionate' I'd think he was asking for handholding, cuddling/spooning, kisses, and non-sexual 'touches'. If he said 'we need to be more intimate' I'd expect more in the way of breast/genital touching, deep kissing, etc. Actions that would lead to sex or sexual gratification.

So, should he have said 'We need more intimacy'? Who knows what was in his head, but it sounds like it. BUT, once you moved his hand and indicated you weren't 'up for it', he should not have respected your feelings. Your body belongs to you.

Maybe it's a case of mixed communications. If your husband feels he isn't getting enough sex, then he needs to man up and speak to you in a respectful, loving way. In the same vein, you should be able to tell him 'no' and why and he should respect that. Then you can have a dialogue about whys and hows.

Did you consent. No. But it's up to you what that means as far as your relationship with him. If you don't feel that you can sit down with him and discuss this calmly without either of you getting defensive or angry then I think you're headed for major problems.

Oh shit!! Amend that to he should have respected your feelings !!!

Dont worry, i read it as you intended!

Yes you are right. He clearly meant intimacy. And no, I'm sure he doesn't get enough sex.

We have got problems. This isn't particularly the worst thing. It's just the most difficult to get past because I am unable to be affectionate or anything else at all at the moment. I know the act of touching wasn't huge but how it made me feel bothers me.

I know we need to talk but I just can't bring myself to, too depressing.

I need to get myself to the point where we can talk together. Thanks as always to mn for listening. Need to get some sleep.

For me the issue is... why does intimacy = groping/sex? Even other posts have mentioned that that may have been what he meant by affection! Synonyms for intimacy are: closeness, togetherness, affinity, rapport, attachment, familiarity, friendliness, friendship, amity, affection, warmth, confidence

Spooning IS affectionate, but he didn't need to grope you. He could have simply rubbed your back, he could have hugged your waist, he could have held your hand.

So if what he meant was "we need to get the sex spark back" then fine, great, but that doesn't mean being touched in a way that makes you uncomfortable... in fact his entire point seemed to be to make you more comfortable. He was trying to make you sexually comfortable (I'm assuming) and get you feeling more sexual, but what he actually did was the opposite.

Is the misery my fault for not being assertive? no I don't think it is. I think while your upset about what happened and how it happened, I think you're mostly upset at the pressure and unhappiness within your own self for not wanting to get back into it. You're not feeling supported in coming to it in your own time. If you never want to have sex again that's your prerogative, but it also doesn't mean he needs to live with that. Not living with that means leaving, not coercing you.

Do you mind answering what you mean by I've been struggling to get back into sex after 2nd child. Are you talking physically or emotionally? Do you mean it hurts or you just don't feel like it? If you don't feel like it, it might come back, or is it because you're tired and helping around the home would help? I think telling him you're not up for it right now and you're thinking of talking to someone is the first step. That you're like to bring intimacy back but that it does NOT equal sexual contact.

OP has he been unfaithful?

No RedMaple he hasn't been unfaithful. I posted before upset after a recent row and some other problems. I had lots of advice so dont want to waste anyones time repeating things. I had the threads deleted as I thought he had been reading them. I'm risking this as i was probably paranoid and in any case he is unlikely to be reading every thread.
I still find mn advice very "black and white" but I know there are things it helps to hear, if only to validate my feelings.
I just need to find a productive way to move forward now.

I know it's really hard to hear. And it's so easy for us to sweep in and give advice based on a very small amount of info, and then sweep back out and you're left holding the baby. Not just the actual baby but the metaphorical one of facing the fact that your husband is pressurising you into sexual activities he knows you don't want, because he wants them.

"But he won't have acted on purpose. If he knew I feel like he groped me and I felt pressured into sex he would feel like I was suggesting something very unpleasant about him." I have to say - those two sentences don't really go together. I totally agree with the second - he would be peeved. But I think the right way to put it would be "He would be very annoyed that he was being held to account for behaving in the way he did." He did do what you said, you hated it. Having your physical boundaries and autonomy ignored by someone who's supposed to love and respect you IS upsetting. Doing it to your wife IS unpleasant. The fact that he wouldn't want to hear it sadly doesn't make it untrue.

I think you should speak to him about it, really. Something along the lines of "I want to talk about what happened the other night. If I move your hand off me or otherwise communicate that I don't want you doing something to me, you have to listen. It's not the start of the debate, I've decided. You ignoring my feelings makes me feel upset and angry."

Hi again

Sorry for making you feel angry but glad it was helpful (??!).

I've reread the OP and think :

He even said we didn't have to have sex when he saw i was reluctant.

Is a big red flag. If you see your partner is reluctant it's "we're not doing this" not "we don't have to..."

I think it may be a cycle of no communication about marital problems = no intimacy = no communication about intimacy, rinse, repeat.

If there are other unresolved problems in your marriage it's only natural that you should not want to be close to him. Certainly when DH and I went through our bad patch the last thing I wanted was to have sex with him. At one point I could barely stand to sleep in the same bed, let alone 'be affectionate or intimate'. And oddly enough, he seemed to feel that if we just had more any sex that would 'take care' of all the tension and anger we were both feeling and then we'd be able to work on our other problems. Talk about putting the cart before the horse!!!

Have you and/or he considered counseling? It helped save my marriage. It took an ultimatum from me (counseling NOW or I'm outta here) but we went. The intimacy issues resolved with very little 'work' once the other issues in our marriage were resolved. Now, those other issues took hard work on both parts but it was so worth it in the end. No marriage is perfect but counseling can help deal with old resentments and bad habits. It can teach you new ways to behave and react. Definitely worth a try. If he won't go, go alone. Because if he won't see that both of you need to work on any marriage, then you'll have some soul searching to do.

OP I'm sorry you're going through this. It is easy when on the outside to be very black and white. That's both good and bad. You can see the behaviour without being biased but then again you don't see the whole picture.
Only you can know if you want to work on this. But hopefully although it's hard to hear, it's also in some way helpful to know that other people find his behaviour awful.

Being affectionate is not groping someone against their will. If you want to get affection back, do it by getting them a cup of tea, a foot rub, a passing hug, do the washing up, ask about their day. They may then want to shag you eventually, when they are ready and feel cared for and respected. A forced grope and reluctant shag is about as far from affection as you can get in my book.

OP here.
A number of threads later and my life is not working. We're trying to make things work and I'm here trying not to move in bed so I don't wake him up. My heart is racing. Im not comforable but cant risk turning my back to him. I'm not feeling good. I don't need advice. Nothing else anyone can say. I just hoped someone might hear. I have no one who would understand.

I'm here. Didn't read your original thread, but am here now. Do you want to talk any more about it?

i am also here OP. let us know what is going on in your head. it doesn't need to make sense.... just talk...

Thank you. I am just so worn out and sad. I try so hard to think everything through. To rationalise, theorise, plan, fix. But at the end of the day the reality is feeling like this.

How are you feeling? Can you talk a little bit about your feelings, within yourself and re the relationship?

I can't see anyway to feel better. I'm so miserable and ruining my family. I don't think there's an answer to it.

Op you sound exhausted and a bit depressed. Are you able to get any support for this? It doesn't sound like you will be able to sort out your feelings towards your husband or how you might assertively tackle your relationship difficulties until you are feeling better in yourself. I'm feeling sad for you Op.

My ex used to pull this kinda crap even tried to use in our divorce sayi g that I 'withheld affection' (rewriting history as he had cheated). I am very tactile and affectionate but my ex meant he didn't get sex as often as he wanted. Dd was only 2 when we split, I was knackered, felt taken for granted and undermined and unsupported, of course I didn't want sex!

I responded via solicitor with 'no I wasn't interested in sex for many reasons including my suspicions regarding his infidelity which were proven to be true. I never withheld affection and continued to be supportive and respectful'

Groping, emotional albeit subtle pressure to have sex is not respectful or appropriate and is edging towards an assault IMO.