A different question related to consent

[Justlurkingaround]

OK, I'm going to risk posting some very personal thoughts prompted by another thread. I don't think this is a TAAT and I hope its not disrespectful to the OP. There is a very sad thread about consent, with some great advice for the OP in what is very clearly a very wrong situation.

My experience is very far from this...and to me not clear at all.

I've been struggling to get back into sex after 2nd child. DH decided he was going to put the affection back into our relationship. One of the things he did was to "spoon" up to me each bedtime, pressed into me with his hand on my breasts. Very tired I tried shifting his hand but he put it back more firmly saying we needed to be affectionate. I felt told off. He did this several nights. I lay there frozen, feeling awful, like i had no say, and a week later had sex so he'd stop hassling me.

He would definitely be shocked to know this has made me miserable. He probably thought he was helping me. He even said we didn't have to have sex when he saw i was reluctant. Is the misery my fault for not being assertive? I hope he is not reading this as it would make him sad.

I have nowhere else to ask though and have lost all ability to judge anything.

I wonder if I was unfair to have sex when I didn't really want to. That must be hurtful.

[AcrossthePond55]

Our partner in life should be someone we can turn to. I know there are things in most of our lives we keep to ourselves, but we should be able to say "I am not happy, I need help but please don't ask questions now. I'm not ready". What do you think would happen if you said this to him? Would he be willing to help you get the help you need to live a happy life.

You deserve so much better than you are living.

[serialangstyposter]

I'm not at all sure he has read it. I thought he had read posts a while ago (discovered I was logged into a shared laptop which was showing my phone browsing history) and asked him. I trust him when he says he hadn't. It is much more likely I'm just being paranoid. But I don't want to antagonise an already difficult situation and hurt him any further. And anyway it's a hard thing to shake because now as I type I am half wondering what to say.

I have had 2-3 hours sleep last couple of nights. And you're right AyeAmorak it is tortuous and not helping. I'm going to try have a sleep now while my youngest is napping. And try to stop thinking for a while.

[NotQuiteSoOnEdge]

Serial, if you start another thread you can pm me a link if you'd like.

Are you sure he's read this though? You know that the fact that the way you are thinking is changing would make him angry, and he's got you very wrapped up with his wants and worrying about him. You may just be projecting your feelings of guilt onto him and panicking?

Everyone needs safe places to talk. If you think MN is compromised then the other place is safer, but also can I reassure you that calls to women's aid won't show up on phone bills.

We'll all be here if you need us. There are, sadly, too many of us who have been where you are. But we've got out, and you can too, and we are here to help if we can.

[AyeAmarok]

OP, if you are still reading, one little thought I had. (I see you've already had great advice from others about the forcing/pushing for sex part which I completely agree with and NotQuite and Across have put it way better than I could).

But you seem to have trouble sleeping at night because I imagine you're lying there petrified of him waking up and starting something physical. Those hours of darkness in the middle of the night are awful when you're feeling depressed, you lie there, completely alone, and everything that is wrong feels amplified a hundred times and like there is no way out. I call them "The Hours of Doom".

So I wondered if you think separate beds might work, even just temporarily? Do you think that might help you to sleep a bit if you didn't have to lie next to him and feel so on guard? Maybe if you had a week of good sleep then you'd be able to process your thoughts better.

The depression/not sleeping cycle is literally torture and both make the other worse IME, anything that helps you sleep (preferably not medicated sleep as, for me at least, that makes me groggy/fuzzy during the day) is worth trying.

[TendonQueen]

You could start a thread in the other place? PM if that needs explanation. Best of luck to you.

[serialangstyposter]

My problems are bigger than just this. I've been hiding behind depression rather than dealing. Taking more and stronger ADs. Time to face up to life and I think DH having access to my thoughts is probably very unhelpful so i think better to stop posting all these details.
I will seek help and start to sort things, thanks.

[AcrossthePond55]

You may not have told him in words, but he knows something is wrong. He must do. I don't think any man could be completely ignorant of his partner's lack of desire.

If you think he's reading this, I don't necessarily think that's a bad thing, if it starts some type of dialogue.

If you don't feel comfortable here anymore, I'm so sorry. But please don't continue to live this half life. Seek help.

[serialangstyposter]

I have been ignoring a gut feeling today that DH had read these posts. It could be (and is entirely possible) that I'm paranoid. I cant really work out the implications of that but i guess I can't continue posting when he might be reading. I have literally no one to talk to. The last time I saw a friend to chat was February so I am very grateful for your posts. You have clearly been strong to get out of your situation. Thank you for talking to me about it.

[NotQuiteSoOnEdge]

I hear you. I have been there.

You are losing the life you have known, but it maybe wasn't what you believed it to be? What you wish so hard it was and should be? Sadly, once you've realised that it's not what it should be, that HE'S not who he makes out himself to be, and that, in fact, somethings terribly, desperately wrong, you can't un-realise it.

The one thing that's any consolation is that it's not your fault. Either that you've ended up here, or that you may have to be the one that breaks everything apart to protect yourself from harm. He is the one who has ruined everything, not you. You are only guilty of being a normal human being, who gives people the benefit of the doubt, and tries to fix things because having a family that's healthy and whole is important. You want to do the right thing. He does not. Quite simply because his life is easier and better for him if he doesn't bother.

I'm three years on now. I'm not going to say it's easy, it was the most difficult thing to choose to do, and he has never accepted for one second he ever did anything wrong. (He did make that tiny but oh so significant step of pretending my no wasn't real). However, I no longer feel sick when I hear his car engine or his key in the door. I don't sit on the sofa with him knowing he's going to ask for sex and that I don't want to and will have to go through his emotional bullying again. I don't lie next to him in bed unable to sleep, curled up in a foetal position for protection against the psychological war he's inflicting silently on me. And it's worth every hard step a thousand times over.

You are losing the life you've known, but it's no life that anyone should have to live.

[serialangstyposter]

Despite rambling I reading and thinking. Thank you again.

[serialangstyposter]

I feel like im drowning. There is no good way out of my head. I feel like I'm losing my life as I know it.

I've been in this place for months now, trying to undo how I feel. But it won't go away.
I hate myself for ruining everything. I want to put everything back and see my life like I did before.

I need to fight my way through this somehow. I can't keep burying it. I know that I need to do it. I have some moments where it seems simple and clear and then it goes again.

[NotQuiteSoOnEdge]

Serial, yes, this is absolutely something to call women's aid about. You've got blurred lines around consent, you feel your heads a mess, your partner is blaming you and you are stressed and confused. They will definitely help you to sort out your feelings about this. They possibly could help you to clarify whether or not he is abusive towards you.

I haven't read 'should I stay', but 'why does he do that?' made what was happening to me crystal clear in a way that nothing else did. You haven't got anything to lose by reading another book. If 'should I stay' gave you the response it did, then def get this one.

Grasping this stuff can be like waking up. Sometimes you want to turn over and go back to sleep and not wake up yet, just have 5 more minutes. Maybe you are awake a little more now?

And remember, for this to be a major problem, it only has to be a major problem FOR YOU. He doesn't get to say what is or isn't a problem. It doesn't stop being a problem because he won't agree with you that it is one. In fact, he can angrily object and dismiss you all he likes, call you unhinged even. It doesn't change a thing. If being pestered for sex is a problem for you, then IT IS A PROBLEM FOR YOU, and that's that.

Lastly, it doesn't matter how much he says he loves you. Words are cheap. 'But I love you so much' is a silencing tactic. If he loves you so much, why isn't he listening to you? Helping you? Changing his behaviour? Why do you need to hide the fact that you are having these thoughts from him? I don't think you are reading things wrongly, but I think he wants you to think that you are because he doesn't want to deal with the implications of you being right, because that would mean he'd need to take a good hard look at himself and change his behaviour.

Trust in yourself. You know what you think and feel. It's your reality. It makes no difference if he doesn't approve or agree. He doesn't have to accept it for it to be true. He doesn't get to say what's real.

[serialangstyposter]

AcrossthePond he doesn't know how I feel or that this is an issue. I don't want to talk about it to him. I don't want another way to feel like I'm unhinged.

[AcrossthePond55]

Do you think people call Women's Aid when they are not in an abusive situation, just to talk through and get perspective. See things a bit more clearly. I know it's not really what they are for.

But depending on exactly what is happening, him being a 'sex pest' is abusive. Emotionally abusive. He should be encouraging you to get counseling and wanting to go with you so he knows how to approach you to make you feel secure.

[serialangstyposter]

NotQuite yes to all those reasons. And because DH is so sure that I read things wrongly, that he loves me more than ever so I feel a bit crazy. I can't trust my own judgement and emotions. What if I act on how I feel and it's a huge mistake.

I'm going to sound really infuriating. I have read Should I Stay or Should I Go by Lundy. I thought it was a light bulb moment but then it passed. I think I was reading things into my relationship that weren't there.

I feel like you have given a lot here and I keep coming back. Please don't worry about responding. I don't want to lean heavily on you. I just think for the first time I am realising that I can't keep going.

Do you think people call Women's Aid when they are not in an abusive situation, just to talk through and get perspective. See things a bit more clearly. I know it's not really what they are for.

[NotQuiteSoOnEdge]

It took me a long, long time of thinking this through before I left, and ultimately I'm not sure I would have if he hadn't taken things a step too far and in that moment everything crystallised, something inside broke and I said ' that's it, no more'.

I was trapped by these reasons

I can't break my family.
I can fix this, I HAVE to fix this.
He can't possibly understand what he's doing, so I must be explaining it badly.
I don't want to be a single mum with no money.
How can I tell my family what I've allowed myself to put up with?

But by far and away the biggest reason was that I couldn't get him to agree he was doing anything wrong. He kept telling me it was all MY fault and my problem. That he was happy and couldn't understand why I had to make life so difficult. I just wanted to MAKE HIM SEE.

In the end I came to realise that I was just a normal human being, I didn't have to be perfect and that I was doing everything in my power to fix the problem, but he didn't want it fixed. That to have his life the way he wanted he was quite prepared to use and abuse another human being, whilst being in total denial about it.

Op, don't feel bad about feeling you can't leave. If you can though, do the following things. Get and read a book called 'Why does he do that?' By Lundy Bancroft. Read Reality's pinned post at the top of the relationships board and explore the links. And consider phoning women's aid, and say 'I just need to talk to someone about what's happening at home between my partner and I'. You won't be wasting their time. Knowledge is power. Arm yourself. You can do this.

[serialangstyposter]

I can't leave NotQuite. I know you will think I have options but I don't. I don't fully know why, I can reason through it all but I come to the answer that I know deep down - that i am not leaving. So I have to find a way to work on us, a way to understand things and make sense of them.

[NotQuiteSoOnEdge]

Serial, you didn't and don't sound over the top. If anything, from out here, you sound like you are under reacting.

That sense of fear, listen to it. It's trying to alert you to the fact that you ARE actually in danger. Add together what you have written about coercion, continuing sex when it was clear you weren't into it, and what you have just said about him 'being half asleep' yet being 'really persistent'. You know, deep down, that that important distinction between consensual and non-consensual sex has disappeared from your relationship. You are in some horrible murky place because he has no respect for your autonomy, and the distance from where you are to 'I'm sorry, I didn't realise you said no', is tiny.

Please do see a counsellor, but you could always talk this through with women's aid? They may help you get some perspective, and will be available to you far more quickly than a counsellor. I'm worried for you, simply because it is unlikely he will reverse from the path he is on, and it only leads in one direction.

[serialangstyposter]

Yep. It has been but I recognised this recently and I'm changing it.

[AnchorDownDeepBreath]

Do you tend to give in to him a lot in other areas of your life too? Is it a pattern of your marriage that he gets his own way?

[serialangstyposter]

I realise the things I'm writing are probably a repeat from a couple of months ago. I dont mean to waste everyones time posting again. I have given it all lots of thought and am trying to sort.

[serialangstyposter]

Sorry it's awkward to explain without TMI but DH never forces sex, he "pesters" but gives up. The times he's really persistent I'm not even sure how fully awake he is.

Maybe I sounded over the top last night but I did feel and it did happen like you describe NotQuite. But i think the fear and thumping heart is more about being powerless than being in actual danger. And maybe some of my reaction is remembered fear from other situations brought on by DH not caring or appearing to care about what I want.

It's not nice. I will persist with finding a counsellor.

MummySparkle sorry to have posted about your situation. Thank you for not minding. I'm glad things have improved for you. Thank you very much for the update.

[MummySparkle]

I haven't read all of this thread OP. But I just wanted to send you my thoughts. I think I was the author of the threads mentioned in your first post. I did t see this thread at the time. DP and I have talked a lot and worked a lot of things through. Things have been a lot better since. I have been a lot more assertive in saying no when he wants to be intimate and I don't, and he has accepted every no that I have said. We still have issues in our relationship that need ironing out, but we have come a long way. M
Sending you OP. Having a third party to talk to (in my case MH worker) has really helped me to rationalise everything. After I have completed the therapy program that I'm on at the moment DP and I will be doing some couples therapy. I'm very nervous about it, but I'm hoping it won't be too bad and that we can both participate and work things through

[NotQuiteSoOnEdge]

Op, I don't know if I'm grasping this right but it sounds as if you weren't moving in bed because if he thought you were awake he would make a move on you? And then you moved, and then he tried it on and you had to (yet again) stop him pressurising you into sex?

I'm sorry, but if that's true, if your bed is not a safe sanctuary but a place where you feel so under threat and anxious that you are lying frozen in place, and can only relax enough to sleep when he's 'given up' for the night, then that is horrific.

I've been there, op, it's over three years since I got out, but I'm having a flashback here remembering the awfulness of living like that. You are mentally under siege.

I'm worried you are looking at this backwards. There's nothing wrong with you, you aren't abnormal, you're depressed because your subconscious is screaming at you that you aren't safe. You're trying to rationalise away an absolutely valid fear, and is isn't working, for the simple fact that YOU ARENT SAFE.

I think you need to realise that you can't fix this, because actually, you aren't broken. He's broken, in that he can't see the awfulness in what he's doing, and because he can't see it/would refuse to accept it, he won't fix it either.

I think your depression would disappear along with him. You're allowed to leave, and you don't need his permission, understanding or agreement. You can't live like this.

[Keepingondancing]

Op it's not great that you are laying in fear. Nor that you find it difficult to be honest with your husband. If you find the right counsellor, they will definitely help you with finding your boundaries with others, building up your confidence and working out what you really want out of your relationship and how to communicate this. Can you afford a private counsellor? If so, you could meet several until you find someone who can really help with these things. Otherwise, there may be some low cost counselling services that can help.

Resolving these things is not being selfish because when you feel better about yourself this will benefit your dc and hopefully your relationship if your husband is able to accept your greater confidence. If he's not prepared to do that, you may end up questioning the whole relationship. But that is in the future, try to focus on yourself atm.