Money, power, and stay at home mum!

[keziah]

I a wondering how other sahm's feel about not earning and using money earned by their partner / husband? I think this is probably a problem as old as the hills but it's really starting to bother me of late. My husband and I were quite poor until recently, now my husband has his own business and is earning a lot more. It seems though that to a large extent he regards it as 'his' money. I feel very insecure and powerless sometimes although this probably says more about me than him. The thing is that in heated arguments horrible stuff comes out from him (he usually says he was just angry and doesn't mean it). Such gems as - I should be grateful to have him - I am lucky because I have more money than abc friend etc - he has made plans and would be able to easily manage without me - could pay to have someone come in and look after the children - if we separate he will be able to hide the money etc etc etc
Although these things are said in the heat of rows they still worry me. I don't have a profession and I am not sure what I would do if we did ever separate.
Perhaps this sounds really silly - that's why I wondered how other people feel about it. I just don't feel like it is my money too, I don't feel like I've earned it. But then I think that he couldnt have got out there and earned it without my supporting him at home. He thinks thats not true because he could have hired a nanny and would have made the money anyway.
I get an 'allowance' out of which I get all the food, clothes etc and the rest of the money is dealt with by him. So if there isn't a dinner he likes he will say that he gives me all this money and he expects to have a dinner that he likes.
Now reading this back he sounds like a chauvanist(sp!) monster - he does help out and is usually nice - just the rows when it slips.
Any ideas, experiences, advice etc very gratefully received. Many Thanks...
p.s I do want to be at home with the children - I'm happy with that.

My first reaction was to tell you to take off for a few days and let him see how much you actually do for him - I don't think he has any idea how difficult he would really find it to run his business and raise the children, let alone look after the house etc!

However, I know that that's not really a very practical suggestion! Can you talk to him? Could you sit down over a meal together and discuss how you feel about this? After all, you being at home, looking after the kids and the house etc, is freeing him up to work, so really you're entitled to half of what he earns - it's just that your job has no contract etc. After all, it would cost him a lot in child care and housekeeping fees to replace you. (To say nothing of any other services you may be providing .)

This sounds a horrible situation. Hope you can sit down and explain to him how this all makes you feel. We have joint accounts and any money that comes in or out is 'ours', and we are jointly responsible, regardless of who has earned it.

Really feel for you keziah. I'm just back at work 2 days per week, just to maintain a bit of independence for myself, although dh really fine about whether I worked or not. after almost a years mat leave, I was beginning to feel uncomfy with the money thing, although it was all my own feelings - like I said dh was fine. Every month he just paid money dd into my account - no handing money over etc, so it was an unseen transaction - I felt better about it like that. I really was ulta sensitive about money tho' (having been fiercely independent before), so it was a good job he was laid back - if he'd said half the things your husband has said, I'd swung for him! (hormones you undestand...)
I suppose you've got to stop thinking about the money as an 'allowance', as its your living wage. I like Azzie's idea of letting him see what its really like. Bottom line is, what you do would cost a FORTUNE if it were hired help. No one person could be hired for all that - he'd need nanny, cleaner, butler and housekeeper. Fine if he wants to hire a nanny, but expect her to care only for the kids and to actually have a point in the day when she 'stops work' - unlike you! He'd be up s!*t creek without a paddle.
I'm not surprised you feel insecure tho', as these throw away remarks really sting when you're worrried about the situation anyway. They are cruel, and a power trip. Fair enough when said in an argument ( I suppose), but not sure about the comments he makes re: the dinner you serve. Do you have big arguments because supper is not to his liking, or are these comments he just makes? Not acceptable. Work out hourly rates for all the above domestic staff (trawl the back of The Lady magazine), and don't forget you work 24 hrs a day, so any hrs worked after 8pm are classified 'unsocial hrs'. Get it all down on paper - you'll be loaded!

Agree with everyone here. I am rather shocked at his attitude. And the things he says are pretty nasty. You work 24/7 - no nanny does that! She'd bugger off at 6pm and leave him to it. I wonder how he'd like that. As for all his 'plans', if you were to separate they'd find his money, and give half or more of it to you. Plus you'd get the house - and you'd DEFINITELY get the kids so the nanny thing wouldn't apply except on his contact weekends. Maybe you should remind him of this next time he's mouthing off during a row. Actually I don't think that's such a brilliant idea, because the rows can't be making either of you happy. Have you thought about some kind of counselling? The joint account is a definite must. If he doesn't agree, you should ask why that is. You made some pretty powerful wedding vows - for richer/poorer etc. The law regards you as one person financially, ie: what's his is yours. I think your dh should realise this too. I work p/t but my husband isn't rich so we need the money, and we try to split it fairly and generously. We have a joint account for all bills etc and our own accounts for spending money. If there was only one income we'd definitely put it all in a joint account.

I felt like that too, Sobernow- I stayed home as my boys' full time carer for the first 2+ years before getting a part-time job. I didn't really have a choice- double childcare fees would have cost more than I could have earned at that point- but I still felt bad that he landed the breadwinners role by default and at a job he more or less despises, unfortunately. Even now we're left with a pitiful amount per month from my wages after I pay my boys' p/t nursery fees and I'm really lucky in that I have a superbly involved extended family of twin-adoring superstars who help me out when it comes to childcare.
I just asked my partner what he thought about your post, Keziah, and he was less than complimentary about your husband's comments. I must say that I agree with him- I would find it intolerable to be spoken to like that. What he says is so rude and hurtful, not to mention, as others have pointed out, untrue. Maybe I'm selfish and hotheaded but if that was my partner's genuine, heartfelt, oft-stated attitude I would be seriously thinking about kicking him to the kerb.

My husband is the breadwinner in our family. I am a stay at home mom of 3. Well actually 2 are in school. I have never had any problem with our income. My husband gives his whole check to me to do whatever I need to do. Which is pretty nice. I do get all the bills together and do the grocery shopping and clothes shopping for the kids. The only thing he takes out is his gas money or if their is something he really needs. Which he always makes me aware of. To my husband he doesnt worry about money much. Just as long as im paying our bills. Dont feel like the money is not yours just because your not working. When you guys got married the two became one. Like star said you are working as a team. Dont worry if you were to seperate not that you would but you could get a reasonable child support settlement since he owns his own business. A judge would most defenately look at the situation. Then you could work a small job to add to that. The next time your husband tells you he could manage without you then you tell him to go right ahead and I will manage without you collecting a large child support settlement. One thing I would most have to tell you is if he has his own checking and savings account I would not put up with that. You should not feel as if the money is not yours because it is yours. You are a married woman and should be able to go into the account anytime the need is there. Dont let your husband hang the money issue over your head because he will do that with every issues that arises in the future in your marriage. I hope I dont sound like I am jumping on your husband too much I just felt bad reading your situation.

Powers of recollection went with first glass of wine tonight (!), but I can remember reading in the press about wives, who when divorcing dh, got large wods of cash in the divorce settlement, because THEY were at home looking after the kids, running the house and generally being supportive to dh while he was working.

Gawd fobid you should ever find yourself in that postion, but it seems that the "Law" recognises the effort that goes into supporting husbands.

It's such a hard position to be in. Suspect a lot of our moms never felt like that because it wasn't such a done thing to go out an forge a career and earn money that they could really call their own.

I know that you are not alone in feeling like this. I am permanently justifying non food or bill expenses to dh, although he knows to keep his mouth shut when it comes to complaining about supper!!

It sounds as if your dh is feeling insecure about your relationship, and a good talk - (perhaps at a restaurant where you don't have to cook?!) would be a good place to start an honest discussion between you both.

I do hope you get it sorted...

Hi keziah, I have to say I agree with pretty much all of the other posts (this got very long - sorry!). Your dh sounds quite selfish and self-centred, I'm sorry to say. He is definitely using money as a weapon, and it is not only unfair but it is disrespectful to you. You say he says these things in the heat of argument and doesn't mean them, but if he is saying them then there must be a grain of truth behind them. And I think it's very sad if he does really feel this way. (Are there any clues in his upbringing or his mother and father's relationship with each other?)

I have to say my first instinct was to do as leese suggested and work out how much a week it would actually cost him to have a live-in nanny who is also prepared to shop and cook for the family, plus get in a cleaner/ironing service. Then write it all down (even better, get actual quotes!) and next time he starts ranting, place it sweetly in front of him and walk away. Yes, he could still go out and make a living this way, but it would take a lot bigger chunk out of his salary than he imagines. And if you were to separate, THAT would also cost him a lot more than he imagines. You would get the house (or at least half of the sale price), the kids, half of the furniture, plus a monthly maintenance of a fair percentage of his income. Basically he doesn't know how good he has it by just giving you an "allowance". Stop calling it that too - it is YOURS (ideally it should all be placed in a joint account you could access as you wish but that seems an unlikely option for you). Is there any left over that you could tuck away yourself, in an account of your own, as star suggests? Sounds like a fine idea to me! Btw, if you need extra for a new pair of shoes for the kids, or a new jacket for yourself, or to pay a large bill (for example), do you get it happily, or begrudgingly? That should give you some idea how he feels about the value of his money vs the value of his family - seems he could have his priorities a bit skewed?

I'm a SAHM too btw. I do feel guilty sometimes about spending money, but I know I am usually sensible in what I buy. I do spoil the kids sometimes but then dh does too! We have a budget and write down what we spend on a chart we keep on the fridge, just to stay mindful of where we are at. It seems to work well. I do get upset when makes comments about how good it will be when I go back to work, to have the extra money etc, but I know he values me staying at home with ds for now, and he knows it won't be forever. I think all any of us want is to be valued and appreciated - I don't think that is too much to ask, and I find it very sad that you are in the situation you describe. You are doing a very important job! You don't have to prove anything to him about your "worth" and you certainly don't need to "earn" the money he gives you on his terms - he should give it to you freely and willingly to help you to do your job! Hope things work out for you - please keep us "posted". All the best

Keziah, your husband clearly has no idea how much you are contributing to your family's quality of life. It is definitely worth pointing out to him that the average salary for a full time nanny in London is now over £22,000. Of course they do absolutely no housework (beyond the children's things)and disappear at 6pm. I wonder whether he would have done as well with his own business if he was not able to work longer / flexible hours???.

If you removed your efforts from the equation, he would be left to cook all the meals, do all the housework, buy all the childrens' toys and clothes etc and suffer nights of broken sleep. When the Nanny is ill or wants to take a holiday, he would obviously have to be at home. It's ludicrous to suggest that a wife and mother's contribution can be replaced completely by that of a Nanny. Grrrrr!!

Absolutely - and that £22,000 doesn't include all the tax he'd have to pay. It takes about £35,000 of salary to pay a full-time nanny - I wonder how that would leave him financially? Also, as I and others have pointed out, she would go home at 6pm - I wonder how his precious business would work if he had to get home to the kids night after night and couldn't work weekends. He would be so hammered if you split, he has no idea. With young children you would certainly get to stay on in the house and he would have to pay the mortgage, and one on a flat for himself, plus maintenance for you and the kids to allow you to live to the same standard of living as you do now. And that maintenance money would be all yours - not some poxy 'allowance' - you could spend it all on wine and holidays if you wanted and there would be nothing he could do about it. He has NO IDEA how cushy he has it, and you need feel no guilt about pointing that out. I think threatening to leave you is just unacceptable if he wants to stay married - and if he thinks he'd get the kids, he is very much mistaken. You deserve to be valued. Men who run their own businesses really need a supportive home system otherwise they couldn't possibly have a business and kids and a dinner of their choice on the table (what, he's going to employ a bleedin' chef,is he?). I tell you, if you weren't there, he'd be eating beans on toast night after night so he can stop playing the Victorian Paterfamilias pronto - this is the 21st century.

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What your husband says to you in anger sounds awful and I agree with other messages about you needing a joint bank account plus separate savings accounts.

However, I am wondering if your husband's attitude to money is also to do with stress. I am not excusing him, though.

You say he has a new business and has suddenly become richer. I imagine he is working long hours. re his business finances in order? Does he know how to handle large amounts of money? Perhaps he's frightened that he hasn't got the time or knowledge to get his finances straight. If this is the case, could you suggest seeing an accountant to get all your finances organised. Part of this can then be opening a joint bank account.

If he feels he is overworked, he might be building up unreasonable resentment at you for staying at home and (as he sees it) wanting to spend the fruits of his labours while he sees no benefit. Is there any way he can get more help at work? take on extra staff? get a new computer? even reward himself with a treat? Although this might be the very last thing you feel like he deserves, if he's kind to himself he then could be kinder to you. If, on the other hand, he's living it up, forget I ever suggested this.

Lastly, how fair was your money arrangement when you were both poor? If things were OK before, then you've got some hope of making them OK again.

Good Luck!

Keziah, get a joint bank account now! I knew someone who had a husband with his own company who re-mortgaged the house (unknown to her as it was all in his name) when it was struggling, then left her for a woman at work and the business went bankrupt the next week. She is still struggling as he has literally nothing (and no intention, complete shit) for her to claim off.
So, at least the joint bank account would always keep you in the picture with what is going on AND if he is secretly stashing his money in some offshore account (I used to work in this industry and the number of guys who used to come in saying 'I don't want my wife to know about this' so it does happen) you would see the withdrawals.
I know this is completely dramatic in its content and probably a million to one chance of happening but at least put yourself in some power here.
As everyone has said, he probably has no idea how much you do for him, start telling him a bit more what you want.

I agree with all the other posts - in addition to an equal (or more) share of the house, his salary, etc etc, I also read a while ago that divorced wives who have supported their husbands for years by RUNNING the home for them and looking after their children even get a share of their pensions.... so the law must think what you are doing is a valuable and equal job. He needs to get some respect and you should be very proud of the wonderful job you do.

Keziah, have you thought about doing a night class? Some night classes are free, but others are just £25. I'm doing a computer maintenance course at the moment, not because I'm particularly that interested in computer maintenance, but it gets me out of the house, dh has to look after dd and put her to bed for a change, and it gives me a dose of self-worth. It is something I can do that he can't, so if your dh uses that "I can manage without you" argument again, you could hit back with "So can I". He might be taking you for granted as you are always there, looking after his children, cooking, cleaning, etc. If you were out one evening a week doing something completely different, leaving him in charge of the house, it might wake him up a bit.

Other than that I would try to arrange a weekend break for yourself with a friend. Get him to agree a weekend where he can look after the kids whilst you treat yourself to a health spa or something. The only thing with that it that it is a temporary measure and he will probably take the kids to his parents or something!

You need to find other interests away from home to show him that you have a life outside of him and the kids. He probably thinks that without him you would be a wreak, which is why he feels that sometimes he can threaten you like this, what can you do about it? You need to prove to him that you can survive just fine without him.

Many men like independant women, if you were to become independant again, I'll bet your love-life, home-life and relationship improve no end. Win back his respect!

Keziah, I do sympathise with you but you need to convince yourself and then him that what you do is in fact YOUR JOB. I was made redundant whilst on maternity leave and had been earning same money as DH till then. It was hard to learn to spend his money without feeling bad about wasting it as up until then I had been independant financially. I now tell myself that I could have got another job and then everything would have to be 50/50 i.e housework, childcare, shopping etc but instead I have chosen to be full time mum and housekeeper and I can justify spending his cash with this argument. We are not well off so I need to be careful but I don't see that I should be grateful, after all he wanted children as much as I and in doing so life changes. My DH also has his own business but I remind him he is not MY boss if he gets a power trip!

Yes of course nannies/childminders can look after the children but how can anyone put monetary value on the care and love that a mother provides? It is valueless. I find it sad that in our society we are obsessed with how much things cost, how much we earn and what belongs to whom. We seem to have forgotten that some things in life can?t be assessed in financial terms and why should they be? Why do we have to translate everything we do into costing X amount before we feel comfortable or able to justify our existence?

I am a SAHM and am obviously aware of the fact that I don?t give anything financially to the family but the input I provide otherwise in the form of managing the house and more importantly bringing up the children who are going to be the next generation on this planet. Maybe if we focussed upon this fact rather than just viewing them as a drain on our resources and ?costing? us a lot of money then we may see things differently.

I am not pointing the finger at anyone in particular here by the way. After all money is obviously extremely important and we can?t get away from the fact that we need it to live. I also feel ?guilty? sometimes about not working and we do struggle at times with our finances. But to state the obvious, health, happiness and love are more important. And it is just ironic keziah that you say your husband is actually well off and yet you are arguing about money. It seems to me that this is not about money but about power and I suppose this is what lies behind working women ? having independence and not being beholden to a man. Nothing wrong with this of course but SAHMs should feel they have their independence too after all they are doing a demanding and difficult job.

In our household my husband goes out to work full-time but he has all his salary paid into my account, He has to ask me for money!. He says he is useless looking after finances and leaves it all to me. He does have a credit card but gives me all the receipts and I enter them into a spreadsheet. If he needs cash I give him a fiver now and again. Otherwise I deal with everything. This gives him peace of mind and he doesn?t care ?whose? money it is. I do my ?job? at home and he does his outside the home and the money belongs to the whole family. All he wants is for us to be solvent and to come home to a dinner and a well-cared for family.

I think men can be complete gits about money, and i include my own DH in that. I would love to work P/T but I honestly don't believe our marriage would survive as DH is very protective of "his" money..He moans that he buys more than half of any meals out, refers to the savings account as "his" as he puts the money in (and takes it out!) etc..despite earning a lot more than me. I pay half of all bills (via joint account) and independently sort out kids' clothes and toys, as well as anything I need. Several friends are in a similar position, they are "obliged" to work as this is what DHs expect..When one friend recently became a SAHM after no 2 came along, the DH of another friend told her "not to get any ideas, I'm not having you sit at home if I have to work!"....

Some one tell me how great their guy is to cheer me up (sorry 1st day back at work after hols...)

I have just handed in my notice from my part-time job (long story).

Hubby actually encouraged me, because he knew that I was dreadfully unhappy and was snapping at him and DS all the time.

I must admit that I am a little worried that in the long term we may run into difficulties concerning spending and whose money's whose, but being as I am only intending to take max a year off (am studying for a carrer change at the mo), hopefully it will not be too much of an issue.

Also, being as I have always worked and spent my own money, not so sure how I'm going to adjust.

Still, I know I've done the right thing for us in the long run.

Keziah, your predicament has been very much on my mind - your h (I can't bring myself to put "d" in front of it for once) said some very hurtful things to you.
I work outside the home and bring in 50% of the household income so I have not had the experiences you relate, but a friend who had a baby at the same time as me did. Her husband was stuck in a poorly paid, contract job and they were all stuck in a small, attic flat. He said similar things to her during quarrels more than once, and chucked in "what do you do all day" and "shouldn't you be losing some weight" for good measure. She was a great mum and a very wise and forgiving woman and I think he got off pretty lightly, because she realised that it was anxiety about their situation that was making him say these nasty things. I think Tigermoth's observations about his financial position could well be spot on, not that this excuses him.
Two years down the line for my friend, her husband has a better job, they have a house at last and a new baby, and he is no longer saying these things. I hope the same happens to you too.
Incidentally, as others have suggested, you tot up how much it would cost to buy in all the work you do. Not much change from £40,000 a year, especially if you live in a pricy area for childcare/cleaners. There is an international campaign called Wages for Housework, which calls on governments to pay women working in the home an economic wage. Its UK base is (I think) Crossroads Womens' Centre in Kentish Town, north London. Neither WfH nor Crossroads have a website as far as I can see, but if you check them out with directory enquiries, they might have factsheets which do the sums for you.

Angharad, just before I went back to work (part time) after having ds (who was 9 mths at the time) my dh started to drift a little towards the 'aren't you lucky to be sitting at home all day while I'm slaving at work' frame of mind. Shortly after starting work again I had to go on a 3 day business trip which meant leaving early on Sunday morning (so no nursery to help out), and dh was left alone with ds. When I got back he admitted that he hadn't realised what hard work it could be, and said he could see why I didn't get much housework etc done on the days I was home with ds. Since then I haven't had any problems with him!

Hear hear Eulalia.

The majority of dp's salary goes into our joint account, which I manage. He has some of his own money to spend as he sees fit, apart from that, I deal with all the finances. I am primarily a SAHM, although I do work freelance occasionally. I think this is actually a very traditional way of doing things, my mum did it that way. It makes sense because if you are running the house, you are more likely to be aware of bills, shopping, insurance etc.

But dp is a confident man who doesn't see money as a power thing so this arrangement works perfectly for him - also I am better with money than he is!