"But we took you to Stately Homes!" Survivors of Dysfunctional Families

[OnceAMeerNotAlwaysAMeer]

It's November '15, and the Stately Home is still open to visitors.

Forerunning threads:
December 2007
March 2008
August 2008
February 2009
May 2009
January 2010
April 2010
August 2010
March 2011
November 2011
January 2012
November 2012
January 2013
March 2013
August 2013
December 2013
February 2014
April 2014
July 2014
Oct 14 – Dec 14
Dec 14 – March 15
March - Nov 2015

Welcome to the Stately Homes Thread.

This is a long running thread which was originally started up by 'pages' see original thread here (December 2007)

So this thread originates from that thread and has become a safe haven for Adult children of abusive families.

One thing you will never hear on this thread is that your abuse or experience was not that bad. You will never have your feelings minimised the way they were when you were a child, or now that you are an adult. To coin the phrase of a much respected past poster Ally90;

'Nobody can judge how sad your childhood made you, even if you wrote a novel on it, only you know that. I can well imagine any of us saying some of the seemingly trivial things our parents/ siblings did to us to many of our real life acquaintances and them not understanding why we were upset/ angry/ hurt etc. And that is why this thread is here. It's a safe place to vent our true feelings, validate our childhood/ lifetime experiences of being hurt/ angry etc by our parents behaviour and to get support for dealing with family in the here and now.'

Most new posters generally start off their posts by saying; but it wasn't that bad for me or my experience wasn't as awful as x,y or z's.

Some on here have been emotionally abused and/ or physically abused. Some are not sure what category (there doesn't have to be any) they fall into.

NONE of that matters. What matters is how 'YOU' felt growing up, how 'YOU' feel now and a chance to talk about how and why those childhood experiences and/ or current parental contact, has left you feeling damaged, falling apart from the inside out and stumbling around trying to find your sense of self-worth.

You might also find the following links and information useful, if you have come this far and are still not sure whether you belong here or not.

'Toxic Parents' by Susan Forward.

I started with this book and found it really useful.

Here are some excerpts:

"Once you get going, most toxic parents will counterattack. After all, if they had the capacity to listen, to hear, to be reasonable, to respect your feelings, and to promote your independence, they wouldn't be toxic parents. They will probably perceive your words as treacherous personal assaults. They will tend to fall back on the same tactics and defences that they have always used, only more so.

Remember, the important thing is not their reaction but your response. If you can stand fast in the face of your parents' fury, accusations, threats and guilt-peddling, you will experience your finest hour.

Here are some typical parental reactions to confrontation:

"It never happened". Parents who have used denial to avoid their own feelings of inadequacy or anxiety, will undoubtedly use it during confrontation, to promote their version of reality. They'll insist that your allegations never happened, or that you're exaggerating. They won't remember, or they will accuse you of lying.

YOUR RESPONSE: Just because you don't remember, doesn't mean it didn't happen".

"It was your fault." Toxic parents are almost never willing to accept responsibility for their destructive behaviour. Instead, they will blame you. They will say that you were bad, or that you were difficult. They will claim that they did the best that they could but that you always created problems for them. They will say that you drove them crazy. They will offer as proof, the fact that everybody in the family knew what a problem you were. They will offer up a laundry list of your alleged offences against them.

YOUR RESPONSE: "You can keep trying to make this my fault, but I'm not going to accept the responsibility for what you did to me, when I was a child".

"I said I was sorry what more do you want?" Some parents may acknowledge a few of the things that you say but be unwilling to do anything about it.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate your apology, but that is just a beginning. If you're truly sorry, you'll work through this with me, to make a better relationship."

"We did the best we could." Some parents will remind you of how tough they had it while you were growing up and how hard they struggled. They will say such things as "You'll never understand what I was going through," or "I did the best I could". This particular style of response will often stir up a lot of sympathy and compassion for your parents. This is understandable, but it makes it difficult for you to remain focused on what you need to say in your confrontation. The temptation is for you once again to put their needs ahead of your own. It is important that you be able to acknowledge their difficulties, without invalidating your own.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I understand that you had a hard time, and I'm sure that you didn't hurt me on purpose, but I need you to understand that the way you dealt with your problems really did hurt me"

"Look what we did for you." Many parents will attempt to counter your assertions by recalling the wonderful times you had as a child and the loving moments you and they shared. By focusing on the good things, they can avoid looking at the darker side of their behaviour. Parents will typically remind you of gifts they gave you, places they took you, sacrifices they made for you, and thoughtful things they did. They will say things like, "this is the thanks we get" or "nothing was ever enough for you."

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate those things very much, but they didn't make up for ...."

"How can you do this to me?" Some parents act like martyrs. They'll collapse into tears, wring their hands, and express shock and disbelief at your "cruelty". They will act as if your confrontation has victimized them. They will accuse you of hurting them, or disappointing them. They will complain that they don't need this, they have enough problems. They will tell you that they are not strong enough or healthy enough to take this, that the heartache will kill them. Some of their sadness will, of course, be genuine. It is sad for parents to face their own shortcomings, to realise that they have caused their children significant pain. But their sadness can also be manipulative and controlling. It is their way of using guilt to try to make you back down from the confrontation.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I'm sorry you're upset. I'm sorry you're hurt. But I'm not willing to give up on this. I've been hurting for a long time, too."

Helpful Websites

Alice Miller

Personality Disorders definition

More helpful links:

Daughters of narcissistic mothers
Out of the FOG
You carry the cure in your own heart
Help for adult children of child abuse
Pete Walker

Some books:

Homecoming
Will I ever be good enough?
If you had controlling parents
When you and your mother can't be friends
Children of the self-absorbed
Recovery of your inner child

This final quote is from smithfield posting as therealsmithfield:

"I'm sure the other posters will be along shortly to add anything they feel I have left out. I personally don't claim to be sorted but I will say my head has become a helluva lot straighter since I started posting here. You will receive a lot of wisdom but above all else the insights and advice given will 'always' be delivered with warmth and support."

That is awful Meery , you think they have sunk so low that surely they must rise at last - yet all they do is find new depths
its like some kind of slow relentless erosion.

No. Dc has not commented and I don't think she will either. She is 14 and seems to have the measure of her gran. To tell the truth though I don't want to ask her as I don't want her to start worrying about it needlessly. But then again I don't want her stewing on it by herself. I'll be keeping a close eye over the next few days I think.

Hi Stately Homes, I have been here before in the past but not for a while and have namechanged...

I've just started a thread and been advised to post it here, so will copy and paste:

WIBU to write to my mum explaining what behaviour I won't tolerate?

I went n/c with my mum this spring after years of narcissistic and hurtful behaviour by her, including turning a blind eye to sexual abuse when I was growing up. It's a long story but that's not the issue here so will keep that brief.

I would happily never see her again, but the DC are asking why we haven't seen her recently. The older one finds her difficult and isn't that bothered but my little one wants to see her. (She tends to shower the DC with excessive presents which obviously works on a 4-year-old! She doesn't actually care about my kids and doesn't behave nicely towards them, but wants to be a popular granny hence the presents. The presents are always inappropriate, unfair and make the DC jealous, badly made tat and break, dangerous etc and always cause upset.)

I don't want my DC to grow up thinking I banned them from seeing granny and hating me for it. I cannot let them see her without me there (she's not responsible enough to keep them safe and has shown this in the past). So I have been considering low-contact instead of no contact.

I also have a stepdad who was a calming influence and who my kids love, but we haven't seen him either as he only sees us with her.

I have written a letter explaining all the reasons I couldn't handle her behaviour and explaining that we could meet up but I will not tolerate various things (things like slagging off my weight and appearance, inappropriate physical contact and oversharing about intimate things, and the excessive presents). It's calm and measured, not an angry rant but it doesn't hold back either. I want to say we can meet up if she wants but if the behaviour carries on I won't be up for continuing a relationship.

Is that a reasonable thing to do/send or would it be better to just continue no contact?

Part of me is worried the letter would provoke a furious reaction, or else it would destroy her.

OTOH I really can't tolerate the behaviour any more so I'm not going back to how things were.

I can't see the wood for the trees so would love to know what people think. Especially if you have experience of this.

(Sorry to butt into Meery's discussion)

Buttery, your mum seems, from your post, to have chosen, somewhat actively, to be a bad parent. A really bad parent. Trust yourself. The reasons you chose to stay away 6 months ago are still vallid.
It's either tempting to thing you can "control it" now...and you can't, because its not you...or......actually I don't know what else...What do you thinks changed ?

Thanks neighbour your first sentence is reassuring to me. Nothing has changed, just the DC's questions are making me think about it.

My mum, despite being asked not to contact me until I was ready, has sent several letters and cards wanting to know what my problem is.

She doesn't respect your boundaries now & hasn't treated you decently in the past. I think it's your job to stand between her and your children, not to facilitate access.
You cannot control her, and clearly she is not self reflecting enough to consider that the non contact is her problem, not yours.
If its taken your kids this long to question her abscence it can't be a strong bond they have with her. I think this is where you have to be the parent and not their friend. I don't see what good you are hoping will come of their continuing contact with someone who is either incapable of decent behaviour, or chooses not to behave decently ?

Thanks neighbour – I have to go to bed but your wise words and similar advice on my other thread have helped and I'm really taking it on board. I will be putting the letter aside and seeing it as something that helped me sort my thoughts out, at least for now. I think part of the problem is that the FOG still persists (in small wisps!) and makes me feel bad. The DC asking after her adds to that and then I start to crumble. I can be a parent first and you are so right that that's important.

Just to add, She would have to be self reflective to be destroyed. I would predict fury, blame, flying monkies..in that order. Although I would like to be wrong... Look through the links at the start of the thread, "toxic parents" book if you havnt read it yet, might be an eye opener.

If you have, and I suspect you might have, its interesting to re-read at different stages of NC

No need to apologise buttery. I second 665 advice. It was a very good idea to write the letter to get clear in your mind why you arecnc and a better idea not to send it. She believes the problem is with you not her, she would not change. Also remember you do not h Ave to JADE justify apologise defend or explain anything.

Would concur fully with the counsel from 665.

Do not send any letter to your mother; this no matter how nicely worded will be turned against you. The toxic person's best defence after all is attack and you will unleash her full force of narcissistic fury.

It is NOT possible to have any sort of a relationship with a narcissistic parent.

This I have found to be very accurate as well:-
"The malignant narcissist is still a malignant narcissist even after you give birth. The fundamental nature of your malignantly narcissistic parent is the same as it was when you were a child. (If not worse.) Due to no reason other than the fact that you brought a child into the world, your narcissist parent is now a narcissist grandparent. Your bringing new life into the world did not fundamentally change your abusive parent into a loving family member. But adult children of narcissists (ACONs) seem to show a natural affinity for believing in this work of fiction. We have always wanted our parent to be loving to us, and now we want our parent to be a loving grandparent. What we want and what we end up with are two very different things. Where we usually get tripped up is our failure to recognize the adaptability of the narcissist to changing circumstances".

She was not a good parent to you (understatement) and she is not a good grandparent model to your children either. It will do them no favours at all for them to see you as their mum continuously disrespected. Narcissists also tend to over value or under value any relationship they have with their grandchildren; you've already seen that with the crap presents (they are also truly awful gift givers).

Do NOT operate from a fearful mindset.

The following excerpt may help you further as well:-

"You are the parent. You get to make these decisions without apology or excessive justification. You can assure your child that you are making a wise and loving decision for them as well as yourself. I am not going to script what you should say because you are the only one who knows your children, but you must convey that this isn't up for negotiation. This is not a decision that the child gets to make. Yes, children usually love their grandparents. Children are often quite indiscriminate in their love which is why they need parents to guide them. Not every person is safe to have around and this is a good time to teach that important life lesson. The more matter-of-fact you are, the more matter-of-fact your children will be. When we act hysterical, they will usually reflect our hysteria. If you act anxious, they will act anxious. If you appear unsure, they will push. Model the reaction and attitude you want your children to adopt.

If you have another set of grandparents in the picture then focus on them. It is rare that both sets of grandparents are nasty. Emphasize to your children how much we enjoy being around grandma and grandpa so-and-so (the decent and loving grandparents). Cultivate your children's relationship with the decent, loving grandparents. Teach your children to be grateful for the decent, loving grandparents. Gratitude is a highly effective antidote to loss. Focus them on what they have, not what they don't have. Model that attitude of gratitude.

You will find that the children will eventually stop mentioning the loss of the narcissist grandparent if you are not bringing it up. If you are talking about your Nparent in the hearing of your children then you are inviting them to keep talking about it, too. I can not over-emphasize the need for your explanation to a younger child to be calm, pragmatic, measured and short. Long explanations make you look defensive which will tend to peak the interest of the child and prompt him to push the issue. You can gauge what is appropriate information depending on the age of the child. If the child is older and has experienced or witnessed the Ngrandparent's nastiness in action then you can say more.

Young children are not known for their long attention spans. This works in your favor. With younger children you have the advantage of distraction. It is easy enough to get the child's mind off onto another track. Every parent has done the distraction routine at one time or another. "Mommy, I want to see NastyGram today!" "Honey, we aren't going to see NastyGram today because we get to go to the park and eat ice cream." (Make up fun time on the spot if necessary for this distraction.) "Yay!!" sez the kid and off we go. Subject changed, kid distracted. In time, NastyGram will fade from memory. Any bonding that may have occurred will dissipate in the process of time.

Remember, you are the parent. You're older and therefore more experienced which is the point of being the parent. The child is dependent on your good sense and protective wisdom. You're smarter than your child; use that to your advantage (such as using the distraction method). You are the final authority. This is not a negotiable issue. The child doesn't get to decide on this one because they lack the understanding, wisdom, experience and good sense that, hopefully, you have. So don't look like you're unsure or open to quibble. You'll undermine yourself if you look anything but firm and resolved on it. Use your advantages as parent to smooth the effects of the cut-off. Over time this will all quiet down. Kids tend to accept what is. It will happen more quickly if you follow the above advice".

Buttery Do your DCs a favour - don't make them have a relationship with someone you don't wish to have a relationship with. They will not hate you for it. You will have protected them from this toxic woman. If she's no good for you, she's no good for your precious dcs.

Thanks fantastic and Attila.

If I think about it I actually don't hope that she will be a loving grandparent - I'm under no illusions about the fact that she will always be crap, and not even understand why she's crap and think she's brilliant. I don't hold out any hope for the mother I want or the grandparent they want to somehow appear. It's that realisation that helped me get to the point of NC I think.

I think all it is, is wanting the DC to be able to see her now and again so that they don't feel I stopped them from seeing her when they wanted to. She would totally twist that as mean horrible mummy banishing lovely generous granny, so if they ever did contact her when older, that's what she would/will present to them. I suppose part of me is scared it will end up with her trying to turn them against me when they are teenagers etc.

But you're right I need to have confidence in my power as a parent to protect them and just decide it's not happening. The fact that fear is at the root of all this should tell me all I need to know. I'm still scared of her and her ability to hurt me, despite all the progress I've made to extricate myself.

I think all it is, is wanting the DC to be able to see her now and again so that they don't feel I stopped them from seeing her when they wanted to.

But that is your burden as a parent to bear. As they get older, you can explain to them in an age appropriate way that we don't see or speak to people who treat us very badly.

It may help to draw a paralell between things that we might think are fun, but are actually bad for us. Like if DC wanted to climb up a ladder and play on the roof of the house. It would feel like great fun - until they got badly hurt.

"I think all it is, is wanting the DC to be able to see her now and again so that they don't feel I stopped them from seeing her when they wanted to. She would totally twist that as mean horrible mummy banishing lovely generous granny, so if they ever did contact her when older, that's what she would/will present to them. I suppose part of me is scared it will end up with her trying to turn them against me when they are teenagers etc"

This mindset is typical from some adult children of narcissists and shows me you are still very much in fear of her.

You are really protecting your children from bad things if you protect them NOW from your mother — instead of having a child who simply never knew their grandparents and who was never mistreated, they have an abused child who is now also being torn apart by the grief involved in having to sever a lifelong relationship with the unhealthy people they are very attached to. Please do not be that well intentioned parent who does that to them!.

Narcissists like your mother like young children because they can use them as narcissistic supply, also they do not realise at all that they are being manipulated but that damage will happen right in front of your very eyes. She will also try and undermine your own parenting abilities to them as well. Narcissists certainly either over value or under value the relationship with the child and often thrust a golden child/scapegoat dynamic upon them as well. Narcissists are therefore deplorably bad grandparent figures to be at all around.

Children adapt and do not miss what they do not have; they would be better off having no such maternal grandmother in their lives. After all buttery, she was not a good parent to you so what makes you at all think she could be any better with your children?. She is still a narcissist and fundamentally has not altered. If she is too toxic for you she is certainly too toxic for your both vulnerable and defenceless children.

I know :( I'm not still clinging to that thing I said, but more just trying to explore why I felt that need. I know you are right and it is about fear. I don't think she will be any better for them than she was for me (which is why I was going to keep it v v minimal and would never leave her alone with them) - but I was worried they would resent me over it - which is kind of selfish of me.

I am going to work on finding the right way to explain it to them. DP is on side too.

Hi MsButteryMash, I read your post on another thread ad followed you here as your situation is so close to my own in many way (albeit my children are a little older). I, too, posted on the Stately Homes thread a few years ago under a different name. My mum was a narcissist then and she's still one now. I've just told her she can't see us at Christmas - at all. She won't be happy and no doubt she'll be complaining about me and badmouthing me to all and sundry. Still, it's a small price to pay, really. My pre-Christmas stress levels are about a quarter of their normal ones now I know I will not be seeing her.

With regard to your youngest child, it could well be as simple as her hearing children from "normal" families talking excitedly about seeing grandparents, aunts and uncles etc at Christmas time. Which may well have reminded her about her own grandmother and the present she might bring. Doesn't mean she is actually missing her. I know that, as daughters, we may feel some responsibility towards our narcissistic mothers - but we have an even greater responsibility towards our own daughters and their health, happiness and well-being.

And whilst I' on this thread... just wondered whether anyone has had any therapy/counselling to help them deal with their relationship with their mother? I just feel there is so much I want to let out and so much I need to make sense of. I've tried talking to friends in RL, but people don't really understand. Sure, they might find their mothers irritating and/or may have fallen out with them from time to time - but they have no idea what a narcissistic mother is like.

I'm in my forties now and although I have moved on in many ways, I still feel intense pain, sadness and supressed anger at my mother's behaviour and attitude over the years and just want to be able to properly let these feelings go.

Hi Moonatic, thanks for your posts. Yes I've had a lot of therapy and most recently seen an NHS psychologist for the extreme anxiety I've been suffering. I have seen counsellors before but I think this time it led towards my decision to go NC as the psych was able to really help me to understand how I have played into my mum's hands – basically how low my self-esteem has been and that I was letting her hurt me over and over again, while feeling I must never hurt her. That was key for me - realising that she hurts me all the time, and it's time I did what is best for me even if it upset her, as I don't owe to to her to preserve her feelings at all costs.

Can I just say that my adult DDs (25 and 21) are grateful I protected them from my toxic M. (Pretty much NC for 15/16 years, with the odd drama/upset.) They are also fiercely protective over me when it comes to her and, the odd time I waver, keep my feet on the ground with sensible words. I have concluded that although my relationship with my M is abysmal, and causes me (still) pain, my relationship with my dds is wonderful and is much, much more important to me.

That's great Fantastic – and extra helpful to me because that would make them similar ages to the ages my DC are now, when you went NC.

They haven't seen her since they were 10 and 7, apart from dd2 who glimpsed her at an event a few weeks ago. My dd1 talked me out of going to the event, but said if I did choose to go, both DD's would come with me and stand up to her if she came over. She said she wasn't afraid of her as she hadn't had the 'training' I'd had. Sweet of her, but I didn't want the drama so didn't go, but was very sad about it as it was celebrating something my much loved brother had done. My DDS are (rightly) appalled that anyone could test their own children the way my m does. I am so lucky to have such kind, decent, living and compassionate daughters who actually like me and love me.

Could also add that my daughters are 10 & 15 and although they quite liked her when they were little (say up to age 4/5), neither of them can stand her now. They are both so, so glad that she won't be around to ruin Christmas for us this year.

oops, should have said I am so lucky to have such kind, decent, LOVING and compassionate daughters who actually like me and love me.