"But we took you to Stately Homes!" Survivors of Dysfunctional Families

[OnceAMeerNotAlwaysAMeer]

It's November '15, and the Stately Home is still open to visitors.

Forerunning threads:
December 2007
March 2008
August 2008
February 2009
May 2009
January 2010
April 2010
August 2010
March 2011
November 2011
January 2012
November 2012
January 2013
March 2013
August 2013
December 2013
February 2014
April 2014
July 2014
Oct 14 – Dec 14
Dec 14 – March 15
March - Nov 2015

Welcome to the Stately Homes Thread.

This is a long running thread which was originally started up by 'pages' see original thread here (December 2007)

So this thread originates from that thread and has become a safe haven for Adult children of abusive families.

One thing you will never hear on this thread is that your abuse or experience was not that bad. You will never have your feelings minimised the way they were when you were a child, or now that you are an adult. To coin the phrase of a much respected past poster Ally90;

'Nobody can judge how sad your childhood made you, even if you wrote a novel on it, only you know that. I can well imagine any of us saying some of the seemingly trivial things our parents/ siblings did to us to many of our real life acquaintances and them not understanding why we were upset/ angry/ hurt etc. And that is why this thread is here. It's a safe place to vent our true feelings, validate our childhood/ lifetime experiences of being hurt/ angry etc by our parents behaviour and to get support for dealing with family in the here and now.'

Most new posters generally start off their posts by saying; but it wasn't that bad for me or my experience wasn't as awful as x,y or z's.

Some on here have been emotionally abused and/ or physically abused. Some are not sure what category (there doesn't have to be any) they fall into.

NONE of that matters. What matters is how 'YOU' felt growing up, how 'YOU' feel now and a chance to talk about how and why those childhood experiences and/ or current parental contact, has left you feeling damaged, falling apart from the inside out and stumbling around trying to find your sense of self-worth.

You might also find the following links and information useful, if you have come this far and are still not sure whether you belong here or not.

'Toxic Parents' by Susan Forward.

I started with this book and found it really useful.

Here are some excerpts:

"Once you get going, most toxic parents will counterattack. After all, if they had the capacity to listen, to hear, to be reasonable, to respect your feelings, and to promote your independence, they wouldn't be toxic parents. They will probably perceive your words as treacherous personal assaults. They will tend to fall back on the same tactics and defences that they have always used, only more so.

Remember, the important thing is not their reaction but your response. If you can stand fast in the face of your parents' fury, accusations, threats and guilt-peddling, you will experience your finest hour.

Here are some typical parental reactions to confrontation:

"It never happened". Parents who have used denial to avoid their own feelings of inadequacy or anxiety, will undoubtedly use it during confrontation, to promote their version of reality. They'll insist that your allegations never happened, or that you're exaggerating. They won't remember, or they will accuse you of lying.

YOUR RESPONSE: Just because you don't remember, doesn't mean it didn't happen".

"It was your fault." Toxic parents are almost never willing to accept responsibility for their destructive behaviour. Instead, they will blame you. They will say that you were bad, or that you were difficult. They will claim that they did the best that they could but that you always created problems for them. They will say that you drove them crazy. They will offer as proof, the fact that everybody in the family knew what a problem you were. They will offer up a laundry list of your alleged offences against them.

YOUR RESPONSE: "You can keep trying to make this my fault, but I'm not going to accept the responsibility for what you did to me, when I was a child".

"I said I was sorry what more do you want?" Some parents may acknowledge a few of the things that you say but be unwilling to do anything about it.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate your apology, but that is just a beginning. If you're truly sorry, you'll work through this with me, to make a better relationship."

"We did the best we could." Some parents will remind you of how tough they had it while you were growing up and how hard they struggled. They will say such things as "You'll never understand what I was going through," or "I did the best I could". This particular style of response will often stir up a lot of sympathy and compassion for your parents. This is understandable, but it makes it difficult for you to remain focused on what you need to say in your confrontation. The temptation is for you once again to put their needs ahead of your own. It is important that you be able to acknowledge their difficulties, without invalidating your own.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I understand that you had a hard time, and I'm sure that you didn't hurt me on purpose, but I need you to understand that the way you dealt with your problems really did hurt me"

"Look what we did for you." Many parents will attempt to counter your assertions by recalling the wonderful times you had as a child and the loving moments you and they shared. By focusing on the good things, they can avoid looking at the darker side of their behaviour. Parents will typically remind you of gifts they gave you, places they took you, sacrifices they made for you, and thoughtful things they did. They will say things like, "this is the thanks we get" or "nothing was ever enough for you."

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate those things very much, but they didn't make up for ...."

"How can you do this to me?" Some parents act like martyrs. They'll collapse into tears, wring their hands, and express shock and disbelief at your "cruelty". They will act as if your confrontation has victimized them. They will accuse you of hurting them, or disappointing them. They will complain that they don't need this, they have enough problems. They will tell you that they are not strong enough or healthy enough to take this, that the heartache will kill them. Some of their sadness will, of course, be genuine. It is sad for parents to face their own shortcomings, to realise that they have caused their children significant pain. But their sadness can also be manipulative and controlling. It is their way of using guilt to try to make you back down from the confrontation.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I'm sorry you're upset. I'm sorry you're hurt. But I'm not willing to give up on this. I've been hurting for a long time, too."

Helpful Websites

Alice Miller

Personality Disorders definition

More helpful links:

Daughters of narcissistic mothers
Out of the FOG
You carry the cure in your own heart
Help for adult children of child abuse
Pete Walker

Some books:

Homecoming
Will I ever be good enough?
If you had controlling parents
When you and your mother can't be friends
Children of the self-absorbed
Recovery of your inner child

This final quote is from smithfield posting as therealsmithfield:

"I'm sure the other posters will be along shortly to add anything they feel I have left out. I personally don't claim to be sorted but I will say my head has become a helluva lot straighter since I started posting here. You will receive a lot of wisdom but above all else the insights and advice given will 'always' be delivered with warmth and support."

Oops again! My DDS are (rightly) appalled that anyone could TREAT their own children the way my m does

MsButteryMash, I think the chances of conflict between you and your kids are actually smaller if you stay NC with your mother, as it deprives her of the opportunity to play your kids off against you or each other. Hopefully when they are older they'll understand your reasons but even if they don't, you know you're protecting them and your relationship with them by keeping her away.

(I am in a similar situation: my 3.5yo twins sometimes ask about their Scottish granny but the last time she was here I watched her picking favourites and talking to the one about the other and I thought, fuck this.)

Moonatic I'm currently doing therapy. I think you need to get one who has experience of narcissistic personality disorder or who at least admits it to be a thing within the sort of philosophical framework they use. I bascially said to mine "I need to you acknowledge that it's a thing, and tell me if my mother sounds as if she has it, and look shocked when I tell you things that are shocking". I've had non-directive counselling before and found it hopeless when the counsellor reacted to a story of my mother's cruelty and the chat about the arrangements for next week's session with exactly the same air of calm neutrality.

Hi all. Just caught a view of this thread as I'm dealing with being cheated on right now. I keep attracting bastards.

Been thinking a bit about my childhood. Good, middle class family but Dad was very emotionally cold, quite angry. Have always felt like he doesn't like me. Mum is okay now I guess but was more like she was my child than the other way around. She was also volatile. Always felt like I was trying to make them happy.

How does that effect relationships as you get older? I can't seem to find happiness or stability

"I need to you acknowledge that it's a thing, and tell me if my mother sounds as if she has it, and look shocked when I tell you things that are shocking"

That is so true and well put toomuch.

My lovely psychologist was very professional and calm, but it was important to me that she reflected back to me my pain and upset about things and gave a "normal", i.e. shocked, reaction to shocking events. So she would say "Buttery, that was terribly hurtful", "That must have been awful for you" and things like that. Simple but I needed to hear that.

I went private re. my periods of depressive feelings and found much of it had roots in my childhood. It has changed everything for me including my relationship with my dm, although not sure if she's noticed!

My older sis was the scapegoat, my middle sis the goldenchild. I came along and was just unloved. Everything I had was second best to my sis and my older sis hated me because she blamed me for her bad relationship with dm, which was encouraged by dm because it took the heat off her. I'd never been able to explain to anyone being that child who could have disappeared and not have been missed...'normal' people don't really get it. I'd convinced myself that I was (as I had repeatedly been told) oversensitive.

Therapy has taught me my brain reacted normally to my situation as a child. I had to deal with emotional neglect and physical violence alone, which makes me push help away. Also the name calling and telling me something was wrong with me made me think I needed to be fixed and was just a bad person. Being told to shut up or that I was oversensitive or denied any help when I was hurt by others has made me feel a lot of guilt everytime I feel low because basically I was conditioned to think it was all my own fault.

Therapy has allowed me to work through these feelings and start training my brain to think better of myself rather than automatically going to guilt, loneliness and anxiety when something happens to upset me.

regarding relatinships I've had one particularly abusive one, but almost all of them cheated. My therapist has said that a) the abuser would have worked out quite quickly that I would put up with things others wouldn't and I was like that because of my childhood and b) the cheaters would have been dumped by me earlier if I didn't blame myself for their dodgy behaviour, also because of conditioning during childhood.

My therapist did that too. It was the first time someone confirmed my pain

Hi FoolishJ

We learn about relationships first and foremost from our parents; your parents taught you a lot of damaging lessons on relationships between the two of them. You are simply repeating what they showed you about relationships, their own relationship is not an emotionally healthy one and your mother also taught you how to become a people pleaser at your own expense. Your father was angry and emotionally cold (probably like the men you have previously dated as well). That is why you are attracting these people to you; its also because you think you really do deserve no better.

Would you consider seeing a therapist; there is a lot to unpick here and you need to heal and love your own self for a change. The last thing you need now is a relationship so you need to refrain from dating for a good while yet. The sticky thread at the top of the Relationships page is something worth reading as well.

Those of you who have seen therapists - how did you choose them?

I'm assuming I would have to go privately as I don't have any symptoms as such that I could take to the GP like overwhelming anxiety. What I kind of have in mind is 6-8 sessions just talking things through with someone who could help me make sense of them and the way I am still affected today. And, hopefully, let me move on without feeling the guilt that I still feel.

I appreciate the advice about checking they understand NPD. Ok, so my mother has only ever been "diagnosed" by me, but she fits the profile exceptionally well. Especially the "going pathetic" bit: "When she's confronted with unavoidable consequences for her own bad behavior, including your anger, she will melt into a soggy puddle of weepy helplessness. It's all her fault. She can't do anything right. She feels so bad. What she doesn't do: own the responsibility for her bad conduct and make it right. Instead, as always, it's all about her, and her helpless self-pitying weepiness dumps the responsibility for her consequences AND for her unhappiness about it on you. As so often with narcissists, it is also a manipulative behaviour. If you fail to excuse her bad behaviour and make her feel better, YOU are the bad person for being cold, heartless and unfeeling when your poor mother feels so awful."
www.daughtersofnarcissisticmothers.com/characteristics-of-narcissistic-mothers/

I just want to move on properly and fully with my life. I've had enough of all this sh*t.

Thanks Atilla

Mine was NHS and I just got who I was given, but even if you go private, your GP can often recommend good therapists.

I have psychoanalysis, found him through the BACP website. It's very focused on early relationship patterns so I find it very helpful as my parents were nightmares.

Does anyone else have OK but superficial relationships with their parents now? My Dad's in a care home with dementia, but I speak to my mum often. I have strong boundaries so she knows now she cannot talk to me the way she used too....but I feel so angry with her sometimes, I feel invalidated because she has no idea what she did to me or the effect it had. Sometimes I wish I could never see her again, but she's old and I'm an only child and she'd be devastated and utterly confused. What's the point in dragging up the past? She would never admit to doing anything wrong.

Alice
Sometimes I wish I could never see her again, but she's old and I'm an only child and she'd be devastated and utterly confused. What's the point in dragging up the past? She would never admit to doing anything wrong.

Up til 10 months ago, that was how I was dealing with my mum. I slowly came to realise (mainly through reading through all of the previous Stately Homes threads, plus Toxic Parents, Homecoming, and Alice Miller's work) that I was swallowing my anger and pain in order to not upset someone who would not show me the same courtesy. Contact with her left me feeling more and more upset every time and hugely conflicted within myself. I kept thinking "it must be me" and denying the truth of my own feelings, which creates so much stress and confusion. I had a massive emotional meltdown around my birthday in 2014 because I have always tried so hard to give her thoughtful, carefully chosen presents, which I often spend hours and hours on, yet she said "I'll just give you some cash shall I?" because she couldn't be bothered to find out what I wanted, and when I gave her a link to my wishlist on Amazon, she made a big song and dance about how she was "too frightened" to buy anything online "after that time my credit card details were stolen, you remember" - which didn't actually happen. She just thought it might have happened, maybe, even though she didn't have any unknown charges, but she suddenly had a panic attack about it because she'd ordered prescription painkillers, online, from an illegal offshore pharmacy. Yeah that's totally like ordering a DVD from Amazon

Wow, sorry to go off on a rant. I actually meant to just give a brief overview saying that my mental health was suffering from being in contact with her, because I kept having to push down my feelings and not be true to my own truth. Now I have gone NC and I am so much calmer and steadier. I don't have to constantly think "Musn't tell Mum about this" whenever I have an interaction with someone, or buy something, or make a decision of which she would disapprove.

I am finally learning that I am worthy of being put first, not shoving myself at the bottom of the pile like some bloody martyr (like her in other words.) I finally feel it's okay for me to take decisions that are right for me, even if other people may feel disappointed as a result. The only person whose needs I must put on the same level as my own, is my son. Because that's my job as a parent, to protect him. He wasn't put on this earth to be a vessel for my emotions. It isn't his job to reassure me or cheer me up (although he does, just by being himself!)

I'm really pleased to hear that you are in a better place now you don't have contact with her. Sounds like you made the right decision for you. You're right you and your son come 1st and denying how you feel is never wise.

I think I'd feel so guilty if I went no contact... She loves me very much and is generally OK now, she does upset me and is passive aggressive, etc. But generally I don't get the EA I used too. Maybe I'm being selfish by not having NC to avoid the guilt!

Hi Alice,

re your comment:-

"I think I'd feel so guilty if I went no contact... She loves me very much and is generally OK now, she does upset me and is passive aggressive, etc. But generally I don't get the EA I used too. Maybe I'm being selfish by not having NC to avoid the guilt!"

I think you are still very much in FOG (fear, obligation, guilt) with regards to both your parents. You do not have to push your own very real feelings down.

Its not your fault your parents are the ways they are; you did not make them that way at all. Their own families of origin did that to them.

Your mother's actions have not been loving ones; what sort of mother upsets her now adult child and acts passive aggressive to boot?. An emotionally unhealthy one that is what. I doubt very much she is actually capable of loving anybody, you would simply like to think that she loves you very much.

Toxic parents never admit to any wrongdoing and her age now is no excuse either. She has never apologised nor has accepted any responsibility for her actions has she?.

What would you feel guilty about if you did go no contact with your mother?. She has caused you to do that by her very actions towards you.
You do not have to put her first.

I went private and had about 13 sessions with a psychotherapist. He was recommended by my brother, who'd started having sessions to do with relationship problems but it soon became clear it was all to do with our childhood and largely our mother, surprise surprise. I had my counselling once NC had started, to help me cope and it was brilliant, really really worthwhile. It wasn't cheap (€85 a session) but I live abroad and wanted to do the sessions in English and wanted them asap and this guy was highly recommended and would do Skype sessions. Worth every penny. PM me if you want details anyone.

Morning!

rickety what you were saying about refusing offers of help really chimed with me - I find it very hard to accept help and I hate having anyone present if I'm in pain. I didn't realise there was a connection between that and a neglectful childhood but it really makes sense.

Atilla
Narcissists also tend to over value or under value any relationship they have with their grandchildren; you've already seen that with the crap presents (they are also truly awful gift givers).

Oh god 1000 times yes to this! You know what my mother said when I told her I was pregnant (and that the pregnancy was viable - I have a chromosomal abnormality)? "My life is complete." God woman what the fuck, please can you be normal once? (Answer: no. When I phoned her to tell her they had been born she acted as though she thought it was a crank call. I had to pass the phone to DH to get him to convince her it was actually us.)

I was going to suggest we start a thread competition for who got the worst present but it's so bloody depressing actually. My mum has mostly always given me money but twice she did buy presents, one at my graduation, one the Christmas when my dad was dying. The graduation present was this sort of old-fashioned ladies' watch, exactly what she would wear, when I've always and still wear a men's Casio digital watch. I'm the ungirliest woman you'd ever meet, and it was a constant bone of contention when I lived with my parents as my mum was always trying to force me to wear girly clothes. So it was like "happy graduation, here's my latest attempt to turn you into a girl." Whatever. The other present, from the Christmas 6 years ago when my dad was dying, was even sadder. She asked me what I wanted and I said get me a new fountain pen, I lost my old one, I like the really plain ones [she knew this, I hate shiny stuff]. She got me one made of gold and silver. It must have cost a fortune. That was her really trying her best, she was really grateful to me for being around when my dad was ill and dealing with the doctors and so on. And she got something that is so just not my thing. I feel like I'm being ungrateful even just writing that, it's not a matter of gratitude though, it's just, how can you parent someone and then know them as an adult for 35 bloody years and have that little feel for what they like? That's where you can really see the illness. God knows there were few enough instances of my mum trying to be nice but even when she did, she had no clue how to go about it.

Alice I'm an only child and I also balked at going NC with my mother for that reason. Of course I can't tell you what is right for you but just to share my thoughts... I used to worry that she would be sitting in the house, lonely, just hoping I would get in touch etc etc. But actually when I think of the mother I know, and not my idealised expectation, I realise she's probably burning with anger and has now added me to her long, long shit list, along with a large part of our extended family, various ex colleagues, neighbours and so on. And that if I did get in touch, the face she would present to me (angry, pathetic, pretenting nothing had happened) would have nothing to do with her actual feelings and everything to do with what she thought had the best chance of getting me back under the thumb.
My therapist helped me wake up to the fact that I had still been responding to my ideal of what a mother should be, rather than the reality of what my mother is. I think that's a big thing for a lot of children of abusive parents. I guess the society we live in is full of messages about what parenthood is and what the relationship is between parents and children, specially at this time of year, and I've found it hard to look through that and deal with the mother I actually have. Christmas after Christmas I ruined thinking "we'll get my mother over and we'll do this and that and we'll go out to the mountains and I'll make so and so for dinner and it'll be great" and then she'd turn up and it would be 10 minutes of bonhomie followed by something that didn't suit her, I'd go into full lost child mode and we'd basically suffer the uncomfortable silence till it was time for her to go home. This Christmas it'll be just me, the girls and DH and we'll have a nice dinner and go to church and have a ton of presents and it will be dead nice.

Am here for Christmas but will be away for the festive season next year; I am determined!.

I think that thread re crap presents would make for very sobering reading; I still remember a MNer being given knicker elastic for Christmas and I have recently read many examples of such passive aggressive gift giving on other sites.

My late FIL was never interested in Christmas, what am I saying, well anything really apart from himself, money, getting fed or being out of the house doing various things for other people. His raison d'etre in life was to get recognition and power from working for various churches and charitable organisations (a telling comment was made by someone who knew him through one such place and he described FIL as "bloody useless" which to me was not surprising).

MILs idea of Christmas present giving is to ask my DH to e-mail her a list of items she can readily order from the likes of Amazon. Being a narcissist herself and insular she has no concept of what either of us like. No thought required.

I wonder if we will actually get a joint Christmas card again this year like in the last couple; we used to receive separate cards (his being a "nice" card, mine being one from the bottom of the pile) till I moaned about it to DH and showed him some examples. Funnily enough the following year we got a joint card (but nothing like To my son and DIL on it though. The fact that we have been married now for just over two decades seems to have escaped her notice!).

toomuchtooold

I bet you that you are not ugly on the outside at all; you seem beautiful on the inside to me anyway. You certainly write eloquently and with much feeling.

Wishing you and your family (and everyone else on this thread for that matter) a very Happy Christmas and 2016.[santa]

Presents have been the bane of my life since I was a small child and have become such a sensitive issue for me. I think "present", I think awkwardness, hurt, obligation, guilt and having to remember and be grateful for that present for the rest of your life. "Where is that X I got you? Do you wear it? It was vary expensive!" Conversely my mum would ask for something and I would get her it, she'd pretend I'd chosen it and was so thoughtful and kind , and then she'd drag it up ever afterwards "You know that X you got me? Well it broke/snagged/bobbled fell to bit. I'm afraid it was very poor quality."

My mum either never understood what I like or who I am, or she would get one idea into her head and run with it forever – so for example I only wore black baggy things as a teenager so in my 40s she still thinks that's what I wear - despite years of evidence to the contrary.

Once a friend brought me some lovely chocs after I gave birth and it was so unexpected and kind and she said "these are just for you, don't share them". And that was it. It stands out in my mind as what a present should be - no emotional strings, no big fanfare, no expecting a ton of praise and beholdenness - she was just thinking of me and what would be nice for me. I burst into tears of gratitude (well I had just given birth but you know...)

With my mum it's not just that the presents are depressing, the even worse thing is that it's always, all, and only, about her.

Kindness is the thing I find hardest to accept from others too - no that’s wrong - more accurately I never expect it - and find myself embarrassingly moved (usually to the mortification of the person being nice)
I sometimes think of this as a "kick response" - like a dog trained by being kicked... always expecting punishment - stupid way to train a dog - or rear a child come to that.

More positively and in an attempt to stop dwelling in the past I'm making myself a new years resolution list.
Next year will be the first whole year when the only voice in my head is mine (I hope) - actually no - IT WILL ! -

1. I will make positive statements - not framed with wiggle words and no inclusion of self doubt
2. I will not keep dwelling on the past and wondering if in some way I am to blame for my parents / siblings treatment of me

does anybody else have any they are thinking of?

1. I will treat everybody with respect, always, and I will *expect the same from other people^.

1. If someone gives me a compliment, I will actually take it in and absorb it.

1. I will put in as much effort to myself and looking after myself as I do to others.
2. I will be happy and live a happy, productive life despite my childhood. I will make being happy my life's work as opposed to the way misery and complaining is my mother's life work.

ooops, got my numbers wrong on my bullet points