"But we took you to Stately Homes!" Survivors of Dysfunctional Families

[OnceAMeerNotAlwaysAMeer]

It's November '15, and the Stately Home is still open to visitors.

Forerunning threads:
December 2007
March 2008
August 2008
February 2009
May 2009
January 2010
April 2010
August 2010
March 2011
November 2011
January 2012
November 2012
January 2013
March 2013
August 2013
December 2013
February 2014
April 2014
July 2014
Oct 14 – Dec 14
Dec 14 – March 15
March - Nov 2015

Welcome to the Stately Homes Thread.

This is a long running thread which was originally started up by 'pages' see original thread here (December 2007)

So this thread originates from that thread and has become a safe haven for Adult children of abusive families.

One thing you will never hear on this thread is that your abuse or experience was not that bad. You will never have your feelings minimised the way they were when you were a child, or now that you are an adult. To coin the phrase of a much respected past poster Ally90;

'Nobody can judge how sad your childhood made you, even if you wrote a novel on it, only you know that. I can well imagine any of us saying some of the seemingly trivial things our parents/ siblings did to us to many of our real life acquaintances and them not understanding why we were upset/ angry/ hurt etc. And that is why this thread is here. It's a safe place to vent our true feelings, validate our childhood/ lifetime experiences of being hurt/ angry etc by our parents behaviour and to get support for dealing with family in the here and now.'

Most new posters generally start off their posts by saying; but it wasn't that bad for me or my experience wasn't as awful as x,y or z's.

Some on here have been emotionally abused and/ or physically abused. Some are not sure what category (there doesn't have to be any) they fall into.

NONE of that matters. What matters is how 'YOU' felt growing up, how 'YOU' feel now and a chance to talk about how and why those childhood experiences and/ or current parental contact, has left you feeling damaged, falling apart from the inside out and stumbling around trying to find your sense of self-worth.

You might also find the following links and information useful, if you have come this far and are still not sure whether you belong here or not.

'Toxic Parents' by Susan Forward.

I started with this book and found it really useful.

Here are some excerpts:

"Once you get going, most toxic parents will counterattack. After all, if they had the capacity to listen, to hear, to be reasonable, to respect your feelings, and to promote your independence, they wouldn't be toxic parents. They will probably perceive your words as treacherous personal assaults. They will tend to fall back on the same tactics and defences that they have always used, only more so.

Remember, the important thing is not their reaction but your response. If you can stand fast in the face of your parents' fury, accusations, threats and guilt-peddling, you will experience your finest hour.

Here are some typical parental reactions to confrontation:

"It never happened". Parents who have used denial to avoid their own feelings of inadequacy or anxiety, will undoubtedly use it during confrontation, to promote their version of reality. They'll insist that your allegations never happened, or that you're exaggerating. They won't remember, or they will accuse you of lying.

YOUR RESPONSE: Just because you don't remember, doesn't mean it didn't happen".

"It was your fault." Toxic parents are almost never willing to accept responsibility for their destructive behaviour. Instead, they will blame you. They will say that you were bad, or that you were difficult. They will claim that they did the best that they could but that you always created problems for them. They will say that you drove them crazy. They will offer as proof, the fact that everybody in the family knew what a problem you were. They will offer up a laundry list of your alleged offences against them.

YOUR RESPONSE: "You can keep trying to make this my fault, but I'm not going to accept the responsibility for what you did to me, when I was a child".

"I said I was sorry what more do you want?" Some parents may acknowledge a few of the things that you say but be unwilling to do anything about it.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate your apology, but that is just a beginning. If you're truly sorry, you'll work through this with me, to make a better relationship."

"We did the best we could." Some parents will remind you of how tough they had it while you were growing up and how hard they struggled. They will say such things as "You'll never understand what I was going through," or "I did the best I could". This particular style of response will often stir up a lot of sympathy and compassion for your parents. This is understandable, but it makes it difficult for you to remain focused on what you need to say in your confrontation. The temptation is for you once again to put their needs ahead of your own. It is important that you be able to acknowledge their difficulties, without invalidating your own.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I understand that you had a hard time, and I'm sure that you didn't hurt me on purpose, but I need you to understand that the way you dealt with your problems really did hurt me"

"Look what we did for you." Many parents will attempt to counter your assertions by recalling the wonderful times you had as a child and the loving moments you and they shared. By focusing on the good things, they can avoid looking at the darker side of their behaviour. Parents will typically remind you of gifts they gave you, places they took you, sacrifices they made for you, and thoughtful things they did. They will say things like, "this is the thanks we get" or "nothing was ever enough for you."

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate those things very much, but they didn't make up for ...."

"How can you do this to me?" Some parents act like martyrs. They'll collapse into tears, wring their hands, and express shock and disbelief at your "cruelty". They will act as if your confrontation has victimized them. They will accuse you of hurting them, or disappointing them. They will complain that they don't need this, they have enough problems. They will tell you that they are not strong enough or healthy enough to take this, that the heartache will kill them. Some of their sadness will, of course, be genuine. It is sad for parents to face their own shortcomings, to realise that they have caused their children significant pain. But their sadness can also be manipulative and controlling. It is their way of using guilt to try to make you back down from the confrontation.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I'm sorry you're upset. I'm sorry you're hurt. But I'm not willing to give up on this. I've been hurting for a long time, too."

Helpful Websites

Alice Miller

Personality Disorders definition

More helpful links:

Daughters of narcissistic mothers
Out of the FOG
You carry the cure in your own heart
Help for adult children of child abuse
Pete Walker

Some books:

Homecoming
Will I ever be good enough?
If you had controlling parents
When you and your mother can't be friends
Children of the self-absorbed
Recovery of your inner child

This final quote is from smithfield posting as therealsmithfield:

"I'm sure the other posters will be along shortly to add anything they feel I have left out. I personally don't claim to be sorted but I will say my head has become a helluva lot straighter since I started posting here. You will receive a lot of wisdom but above all else the insights and advice given will 'always' be delivered with warmth and support."

You ok eternal? I can imagine how shaken you are!

Hi Hissy, yes, I feel a bit silly now tbh I mean she just knocked on my door. I had figured that might happen sooner or later. The lights were on and I was by the kitchen window so she obviously knew I was in and ignoring her. But I was also literally putting hot food onto the table and letting her in for a long conversation (which it would have to be) with DD there (making tea/conversation/bed time difficult).. I just didn't want to do it.

Don't feel silly you don't know how that conversation will have gone

when my DM knocked on the door for me it escalated quickly, out of nowhere and I had to call 999

To this daY my da is still scared somehow if there's an unexpected knock on the door.

My ds not da

Feel your pain eternal.

I've been NC with my DM for almost two years and there were episodes before that lasting years. The hardest time was when she learned that I didn't want contact through not answering phone and door etc... I lived on my own and didn't have anyone close by. I would be shaking too. But it became a very powerful experience because it as the start of me reasserting my physical boundaries which made it easy to establish emotional ones. She would be present herself as a victim to everybody we knew too but I know realise lots of people probably saw through it. She wouldn't come now but she does send her husband round and recently had my half sister have a go at me over the whole thing. We also have the annual drive-by present drop off at Xmas for DS which is all done for effect. She doesn't know our family name though and gets it wrong every time. Gets easier over time. But I still check before I answer the door or phone. Habit.

The thing is, I realise I haven't actually, ever, sat down and explained in no uncertain terms what I see as the whole picture, all the behaviour and the words that I have found hurtful/offensive in the past and now. So, what I'm going over in my head is, is that wrong of me - should I sit DM down and say all of that, and 'give her a chance'? A reasonable, rational person would be able to have a conversation. But I'm convinced that DM won't be able to hear it, because she has her own narrative so firmly embedded in her head by now, and doesn't 'think' so much as 'parrot the same things over and over'. I'm not sure I could handle the conversation. And pretty sure if it went wrong I'd feel very exposed and either way I would have given her a lot of ammunition for repeating to all and sundry about my deepest feelings. I don't fancy that. So shutting down and going NC is the easy option for me, but am I being fair? - that's what is going through my head, and that I owe her fairness because she is my DM.

Then again, I try to remember the reason I went NC after this latest thing, which is I just wanted to do this for me, and for DD, put up a wall, a force field if you like, and try to find a way to be ok emotionally myself and develop some boundaries and strength. The saying is, put on your own life jacket first? I can't say that I've missed anything about my parents/DM through going NC. And life has been easier in some ways. Whereas every contact with her seemed to weaken me a little bit more. Maybe it's just uncomfortable because I'm so unused to asserting boundaries and what I want, and so used to letting her have what she wants (even though I'm not clear what she gets out of contact with me either).

eternal,

You really do not owe your mother anything.

I think you are perhaps still mired somewhat in the FOG. You have no need to be fair - your mother has never been fair or shown you any real consideration in life whatsoever. When has she ever been bloody fair?. She continues to try and break down any boundary you care to set e.g. the visit to your home the other night. I assumed it was your mother coming to pay you a visit.

She sees you likely as solely an extension of her. Many adult children of narcissists as well have huge problems with setting boundaries mainly because they've never been allowed to have any.

Any conversation you have with your mother will not go well for you no matter how nicely you try to put your points across. The only viewpoint she has and wants from you is her own.

It is not your fault your mother is like this, her own family of origin did that lot of damage to her. It is also NOT possible to have any sort of a relationship with a narcissist.

Family are not binding and in your case you are certainly protecting you and your child from Bad Things.

Keep well.

People like our parents always do that "I don't know what I've done" crap. They DO know. And even if they didn't, if someone you purport to love starts avoiding you/cuts you off, it's a fairly big clue that you've done something really shit, isn't it?
Trying to be fair, spelling it all out for them doesn't change anything because in their heads they hear something completely different, they usually see it as an attack and either fight back or go all woe is me.
You feel guilty because that's what we children of narcs do. It's all part of the guilt and the FOG.

Agreed.

Took me a while to realise that if she was asserting her emotional needs them I should be allowed to. And then slowly I realised that was normal and all healthy and happy people do it.

Once I started respecting my own position and challenging her - I began to see the worst of her behaviour. I tried Low Contact but it was clear everything was on her terms. I went through the same learning curve as you.

No Contact happened initially because I couldn't bear her anymore. I tried to explain to her but she accused me of being mentally ill - I began to think she was right but I still didn't want to see her. Eventually it dawned on me tha if I thought my child was ill I wouldn't be so unkind about them.

The latest NC episode happened after the death of my DF. I think I kept contact because I was a bit lost myself. But the bad behaviour started again with the birth of my son and her marriage. Eventually I reached the conclusion that I just had nothing positive to say about her and the relationship was not benefiting either of us. And that's pretty much what I said. Along the lines of: I don't like you, I feel you've let me down, I would be happier with no contact.' She had an opportunity to talk to me about that. Predictably she didn't but sent her flying monkeys round. Was quite a simple and effective message.

Thanks. You are right about FOG and boundaries. It takes self awareness or someone else teaching you to even know what you are doing wrong, how your own thinking is so messed up? This thread is so useful for that. I only began to realise what boundaries are and that other people have them recently, that must sound quite odd in itself. Like you say, we are people who were not allowed any, to assert our needs and wants. So I need to learn to have some. I suspect if I figure it out I'll attract a whole different set of people into my life and probably lose others. You are right that DM has shown no respect for any boundaries I was trying to put up - I mean, I was blatantly ignoring her text/FB messages which I'm guessing some parents might respond to with 'I accept you want some space, just let me know when you are ready to talk, I'm here to listen'? - at least, that's how I'd want to handle DD when she is older, if she is upset with me. Not try to push my way into her house.

Oops long time no post. Still massively pregnant, still reading, still having therapy.

People like our parents always do that "I don't know what I've done" crap. Oh yes this. I know now from a recent call from flying monkeys that my mum is doing this. She also posted a picture of me on the dreaded Facebook saying something like "my beautiful girl" and then got lots of sympathetic messages saying crap like "thinking of you xxxx". She's clearly been spouting all sorts to anyone that will listen, as always.

So right about FOG and boundaries too. It is only recently that I've never in my whole life been able to set boundaries with anyone without feeling so so guilty about it. Now I have been seeing my counsellor for a while I'm finally learning these essential life skills that my parents should have taught me. Instead of teaching me this, they spent their time crushing my confidence and self esteem.

I've been getting a few PA messages from my mum, which I ignored and then I got another a few days ago in which she apologised for "things she has said" but that "everyone says things like that when they are angry". Er no, they don't. Reasonable people have discussions if they are angry or upset, they don't accuse you of childish and vile behaviour and storm out of your house because they didn't like your tone of voice.

Hello Tired
It is only recently that I've never in my whole life been able to set boundaries with anyone without feeling so so guilty about it.

Yes - my whole childhood was basically one whole lesson of not setting boundaries, that you don't deserve any boundaries. I didn't even know what the fuck they were!

Had another dream about my mum last night Really getting bored of this now! Coincidentally (?) DS phoned me yesterday and cried down the phone because his insomnia has got so bad :(

For those on here who have begun/managed to set boundaries, what did you do at the start and what do you do, to 'have' boundaries. For someone who has boundaries that might sound like a silky question. But it's an honest one. In practice, what does it mean daily about how you approach other people?

pocket I hope the dreams stop soon. Your poor son too. How old is he? Has he been to the docs about the insomnia?

Eternal with other people I have just learned to say no if they want to arrange something that I can't/don't want to do. I used to be terrified of this as my parents always concocted stupid lies to tell people to get out of trivial arrangements. It has basically taken me this long, well into my 30s to realise that most people are reasonable and won't create a huge drama if you can't meet up with them/do them a small favour.

With my parents I have been more drastic and just not told them my new phone number and ignore communications. They don't understand subtle so I have had to go all out. This was very hard at first but as time has gone on (and talking it through with my therapist) it is becoming much easier and I feel liberated.

I'm having a bit of a wobble at the moment in that my baby is imminent and this is the one time in my life I could really do with a supportive family. I have supported my mother through so much, from such a young age and she just can't do the same for me at all. Accepting this is hard. My DD1 keeps asking about them too but they are too young to understand.

Oops, name change fail. First time I've used this one on this thread!

here's a good book about boundaries

tired this is not your first DC? So at least you will be ready for the "your mum can help can't she" comments. God I hated that. Have you any leeway to hire in some help? A cleaner if not childcare?

I had an odd feeling yesterday. I was reading a thing in the Guardian about a woman who works in a youth support charity and she mentioned a time when she accompanied a 17 year old to an STD clinic as her parents would have been angry to know she was having sex.
When I was 18 I had a pregnancy scare and as I'm sure you all can understand I kept it quiet from my parents. GP visits, morning after pill, subsequent blood tests after my period still didn't reappear, andarranging to travel across the country to get contraceptive implant -all organized on my own. Which, you know, its fine. What was remarkable was thinking back on how I thought of this stuff. I'd have had no idea that a youth worker might help you with something like this. And I would never have thought to ask anyone for help because my view was that if I did anything my mum didn't like then it was on me to deal with any of the consequences - I was only allowed freedom in my own opinion if I was able to act with complete confidence without any support. It's like, I knew these that ngs were probably OK to do, that my mum banned lots of things for little reason - but I had too little love and forgiveness for myself to be able to acknowledge that I might need help in dealing with some of the freedom to which I was entitled. I suppose in a way I was right because any weakness would have been jumped on by her as a chance to control me - it was dangerous to be a real person in my mum's house, even in those years when I was at uni - but it's amazing how much I internalised that.

I had my first counselling session on Friday, it's taken a few days to digest everything. It's fucked up my headspace and my sleep and made me confront some things.

Turns out my mother has had an enormous impact on my emotional well-being since a young age and that the many years of it have had an extraordinary erosive effect on my self-worth and self-esteem that continues to this day; that I avoid dominant, aggressive situations and have conditioned myself inside a shell that I won't venture out of to meet new people or to put myself at any emotive risk.

My mind was also taken back to an event that happened when I was a young teen; an event that I'd (successfully) planted deep within my subconscious and suitably erases from normal thought. It's fucking me hard. I've been having nightmares, flashbacks and anxiety about it ever since and it keeps coming to the forefront of my mind. I didn't tell the therapist about it, I'm too ashamed, it's shameful. I've not told my family, my DW ever. It's tough.

We're going down the route of something called Compassion Focused Therapy, it's similar to CBT but it much newer and focuses on, in a nutshell, "learning to love yourself" - stopping being my harshest critic, blaming myself for everything and realising things in the past were something not my fault.

We're meeting weekly. Will likely need EMDR for PTSD afterwards.

Oh, Hissy, I really appreciate, and encourage, your viewpoint. You are totally right I need to get myself better. Additionally, both therapist and GP think my ME has been caused by the sustained barrage of pressure and stress over many years (along with glandular fever). Am hoping to go to hydrotherapy to try to help my joints and get some exercise/lose weight but baby steps. Partner does want a baby and we've started saving but we both agree that I need to look after and love myself a billion times more than I do now. I've long thought I'm stupid, ugly, don't fit in. Classic signs of EA I guess....

Hi everyone , does anyone mind if i join to add my story and perhaps advise me.
I'm a survivor of a narcistic mother who I have reduced contact with since last year after an almighty family row.
the row was instigated by my younger and only sister and I decided to calmly walk away and ask them to leave me alone.
Neither of them recognise the abuse and subsequent pain they have put me through over the years, I was the child who was a problem before I was even born , who nobody would have wanted, who was pretty but that's all i had !
I see my young self as emotionally abused with some physical abuse but emotionally abandoned. i was a fighting screaming young child who couldn't bear to be seperated from my abuser who was never emotionally available and inconsistant , apart from the moods and temper which were frighteningly consistant. i became a depressed teenager running away , suicide attempts, bulimia but never any social care or police involvement.

I'm now nearer fifty than forty , im in a really good long term relationship of 16 years , have a 9 year old girl who is a really lovely child and have been sucessful in adopting a 2 year old girl who has been with us a year and we all adore.

The adoption process took 2 years of raking over my past with ss which was at times painful and frustrating , but ultimately made me feel proud of what we as a small family have achieved. My sister and mum have basically told me they think i have fooled ss into accepting us as adopters by keeping them out of the loop , although i was totally honest and they met my mum.(not my sister). I mention the adoption because i think it is a major factor that we have been approved , jealousy from sister and anger from mum that i was approved as ok
I also have a job in child protection working with challenging behaviour

I tried to keep things going with them both , i have had extensive counselling in my twenties and believe that my sister was also a victim of my mothers behaviour (she was threatened with care to keep her safe from me ?, i was threatened with care because i was so awful. I should be grateful i wasnt put in care !!!!!!! etc.)

Last year things came to a head with my sister , a minor incident where her youngest child , aged nearly four ,headbutted my daughter ( i believe and said he didnt mean to do it but he had been asked to stop play fighting 3 times at her party ) and at dd request asked me to remove him, i did this against my sisters wishes ( she wanted time out and for him to go back in, but it was a drama themed party , no adults in the room, and he wasn't enjoying it, i said no and he happily played with my partner , re-joining for the food).
My mum predictibly backed my sister while i stuck with my belief that what i did was right for my daughter and i didnt directly blame him , he just was making his own fun in the wrong place.

This resulted in months of passive aggressive behaviour from my sister , hostile , rude , dismissive . Until i had to take action after my daughter said " even tho auntie x is your sister , she's not your friend is she" . This was at the time my second dd being placed with us and lots of questions about sisters from my first dd.
So i confronted it saying unless she could be at least pleasant when we met then i wouldnt be joining any of my family for get togethers or arranging playdates. this created a massive storm because its the first time i have stood up to them and said i am not going to continue to be treated this way especially in front of my children.

My sister instigated family therapy with relate , a big no no although i attended once, but my social worker advising that the adoption would be stopped if i continued therapy at that point, and i don't really feel I would be doing it for me , although if circumstances were different i would have just to hear their side and have an independent person there.
the session consisted of my family telling counsellor how awful i was ,all my fault blah blah .
I walked away and asked them not to contact me again .

I did see them at xmas at a large family party , and allowed my parents to come on xmas morning for an hour to see our girls and give presents , but was relieved to see them go.

Unfortunately , and this is my problem , my daughter has a very different relationship with them, she still wants to see them , i don't encourage it but i dont stop it either , she also wants me to be there and to see everything is alright. I just can't put myself through spending time seeing them , not even for my dd.

does anyone else have children who want to see family who have caused hurt through abuse , and what do you do and say ?

sorry its so rushed , trying to type before my lo wakes.

portinastorm,

If they are too toxic for you to deal with its the same deal for your vulnerable and defenceless children. People from dysfunctional families end up playing roles; your sister here is the golden child (itself a role not without price although she is completely unaware of this) and you are the scapegoat.

You do not mention your dad in your post; is he still around?.

You have also learnt some lessons here the hard way and I would never have advised you to even entertain the idea of family therapy at all with a group of narcissists (and particularly with Relate!). It was a complete non starter and they ganged up on you as abusive people do. They can certainly manipulate counsellors and that Relate counsellor was vastly out of her depth.

There needs to be no more visits by them to your house or by you to them; the Christmas presents are used by such people to buy their grandchildren's affections; what you may also come to see is that one child is favoured greatly over the other. Narcissists really do tend to over value or under value the relationship with their grandchildren (whom they also see as narcissistic supply). Your child is being used in a similar manner to how you were as a child.

No contact is precisely that; what you have really currently is low contact. I would seriously go no contact now with all of them. Also you seem to have a complete lack of boundaries when it comes to these people which is not surprising really since they have trained you to put your own needs last. You still are really putting your own self last and now your children are in the firing line. Your child does not know that she is being manipulated. Many adult children of narcissists have huge problems with boundaries because they have never been encouraged or allowed to really have any.

It is not possible to have a relationship with a narcissist. You need to protect both your children here from your toxic family of origin. There must be no further contact of any kind.

This excerpt may well assist too:-
"Here are the facts of life: the malignant narcissist is still a malignant narcissist even after you give birth. The fundamental nature of your malignantly narcissistic parent is the same as it was when you were a child. (If not worse.) Due to no reason other than the fact that you brought a child into the world, your narcissist parent is now a narcissist grandparent. Your bringing new life into the world did not fundamentally change your abusive parent into a loving family member. But adult children of narcissists (ACONs) seem to show a natural affinity for believing in this work of fiction. We have always wanted our parent to be loving to us, and now we want our parent to be a loving grandparent. What we want and what we end up with are two very different things. Where we usually get tripped up is our failure to recognize the adaptability of the narcissist to changing circumstances.

It is highly unlikely that your NPD parent will interact with your children in exactly the same way they did with you. At least, not in your presence. They have adapted their methods to the new situation of you having a family of your own. They know they don't have the same power and control they used to so they usually switch to sneakier methodologies. Which allows you to think that they have changed from what they were when you were growing up. From my personal experience, and from observing the experiences of others, the NPD grandparent will use their grandchildren in the same way they would use an inanimate tool. Without regard for the humanity of your child, that child becomes a tool in the hand of your NPD parent to hurt you. This will always result in moral and/or emotional harm being done to your child as well.

The actual mechanics of how the NPD grandparent will misuse their relationship to their grandchildren will vary. Generally, they will either over-value or under-value the grandchild as a means to get to you. Often, when they over-value, it is the objective of the Ngrandparent to steal the child from you. I mean that in both senses, physically and emotionally. Ngrandparents are known for so much trash-talking against you behind your back to your own child or children that they want to go live with grandma or grandpa, or the Ngrandparents simply inspire rebellion of the child against you. They steal the hearts of the grandchildren. Sometimes, they will battle for physical custody of a grandchild after their slander campaign against you has won them powerful allies. Many times the Ngrandparent has a lot of extra cash to throw around since they are done raising a family. They may successfully exploit the natural selfishness of the child by using cash or toys to lure them. I have read heart-breaking stories of these kinds of situations often enough that I recognize the clear danger any narcissist grandparent represents. They can even steal your children's hearts from you when the children near adulthood with promises of money, houses, cars, college tuition, etc. as bait.

It is imperative to let yourself know that, without profound evidence to the contrary, your narcissist parent is a narcissist still. You must let yourself know for a fact that your Nparent can not be trusted with your most precious responsibility, your children. If you allow contact between your children and your Nparent it must never be out of sight. Never for a moment leave your child alone with this serial abuser. They only need a few moments of alone time to inflict damage. A whisper, an insinuation, a pinch, a look. If you consider yourself a responsible parent you will never, ever leave your child alone with your Nparent. Ever.

So you've made the decision that cutting off contact with your Nparent is a necessity and now you're dealing with questions from your children, or you're anticipating questions. First of all, let us establish another fact. You are the parent. You get to make these decisions without apology or excessive justification. You can assure your child that you are making a wise and loving decision for them as well as yourself. I am not going to script what you should say because you are the only one who knows your children, but you must convey that this isn't up for negotiation. This is not a decision that the child gets to make. Yes, children usually love their grandparents. Children are often quite indiscriminate in their love which is why they need parents to guide them. Not every person is safe to have around and this is a good time to teach that important life lesson. The more matter-of-fact you are, the more matter-of-fact your children will be. When we act hysterical, they will usually reflect our hysteria. If you act anxious, they will act anxious. If you appear unsure, they will push. Model the reaction and attitude you want your children to adopt".

Steve I'm glad you were able to reschedule your session - it sounds like your therapist is quite clued up, which is great. Do you feel you will be able to build a trusting relationship with him/her?

Re the buried memories surfacing - I would encourage you to try your best to just sit with this memory and look at it in a clear, adult light as best you can, no matter how painful and humiliating you feel it is. Repressed memories resurface, and they poison the soil in which they are buried. Sunlight can be the best medicine for old traumas.

Most of us as abuse survivors will have memories resurface which feel horribly shaming. It can be very validating to be able to recount those events to an objective observer and listen to them say "What a horrible abusive bastard your parent was. It's clear how his/her actions/words were designed to cause you the maxium pain and to make you the victim accept responsibility for the abuse and carry the burden of shame that rightly belonged to the abuser."

Do you think this is something you might feel comfortable, eventually, sharing with your therapist?

Abusers shame their victims deliberately; it makes the victim far less likely to tell anyone.

Be very kind to yourself at the moment Steve, you are doing something incredibly hard and incredibly brave. You have enormous strength to have survived your childhood and you have made the hard choice of working on your issues instead of trying to keep them buried and instead project your pain onto others.

Uninspired DS is 20 and lives away from me. He has said he will go to the doctor and consider getting on ADs (he also has crippling social anxiety and depression.) He was tried on ADs when he was 16 but when they didn't magically transform him overnight into a happy elf he became resistant to taking them (despite expectation setting by both me and his psych!)

The insomnia is a real pain for him because he is missing some lessons as a result and in danger of failing :(

Steve - the first therapy session can be very draining as you go into all the details etc. the whole point of the therapeutic relationship is that the therapist provides safe space for you to say whatever you need to say without being judged. So, if/when you feel your therapist does provide this for you, please tell them the thing you were too ashamed to tell them. You will feel better once another person knows, a person who is on your side.

Port - there are many things a child wants. Not all of them are things you think are good for them. Your job as parent includes stopping them from having what you have decided are harmful things. A relationship with toxic people is one of those things.

Pocketsaviour suggested I come here from a thread I started
www.mumsnet.com/Talk/relationships/2556393-Hurtful-Mother?watched=1&msgid=58880953#58880953

Haven't had chance to read the thread yet but thought I'd just say hello

Thanks pocket, I'm trying to look after myself at the moment, music's helping (have always connected through music) and I do feel much better for realising that all the things my mother provoked and impinged on me weren't my fault, it's a big weight lifted.

It's realistically going to take much time to build my self-esteem and self-worth, I'm not sure how to do so because I've never had them in the first place. Socially awkward and incompetent etc.

My therapist is good, he is really passionate about the "client" engaging and working through problems during the session and he's given me some resources to look into before next session. I like researching and learning so this is something to appeals to me.

Sadly I'm not sure if I will ever disclose the event. It was something completely unrelated to my family and happened when I was out one day riding my bike in a summer. It just makes me so ashamed and I should have been able to stop it but was completely powerless and frozen.

I'm sorry you're having nightmares pocket, I hope they stop soon. If your DS does need antidepressants then I recommend escitalopram- they are very good for insomnia too (I took them for around three years).