"But we took you to Stately Homes!" Survivors of Dysfunctional Families

[OnceAMeerNotAlwaysAMeer]

It's November '15, and the Stately Home is still open to visitors.

Forerunning threads:
December 2007
March 2008
August 2008
February 2009
May 2009
January 2010
April 2010
August 2010
March 2011
November 2011
January 2012
November 2012
January 2013
March 2013
August 2013
December 2013
February 2014
April 2014
July 2014
Oct 14 – Dec 14
Dec 14 – March 15
March - Nov 2015

Welcome to the Stately Homes Thread.

This is a long running thread which was originally started up by 'pages' see original thread here (December 2007)

So this thread originates from that thread and has become a safe haven for Adult children of abusive families.

One thing you will never hear on this thread is that your abuse or experience was not that bad. You will never have your feelings minimised the way they were when you were a child, or now that you are an adult. To coin the phrase of a much respected past poster Ally90;

'Nobody can judge how sad your childhood made you, even if you wrote a novel on it, only you know that. I can well imagine any of us saying some of the seemingly trivial things our parents/ siblings did to us to many of our real life acquaintances and them not understanding why we were upset/ angry/ hurt etc. And that is why this thread is here. It's a safe place to vent our true feelings, validate our childhood/ lifetime experiences of being hurt/ angry etc by our parents behaviour and to get support for dealing with family in the here and now.'

Most new posters generally start off their posts by saying; but it wasn't that bad for me or my experience wasn't as awful as x,y or z's.

Some on here have been emotionally abused and/ or physically abused. Some are not sure what category (there doesn't have to be any) they fall into.

NONE of that matters. What matters is how 'YOU' felt growing up, how 'YOU' feel now and a chance to talk about how and why those childhood experiences and/ or current parental contact, has left you feeling damaged, falling apart from the inside out and stumbling around trying to find your sense of self-worth.

You might also find the following links and information useful, if you have come this far and are still not sure whether you belong here or not.

'Toxic Parents' by Susan Forward.

I started with this book and found it really useful.

Here are some excerpts:

"Once you get going, most toxic parents will counterattack. After all, if they had the capacity to listen, to hear, to be reasonable, to respect your feelings, and to promote your independence, they wouldn't be toxic parents. They will probably perceive your words as treacherous personal assaults. They will tend to fall back on the same tactics and defences that they have always used, only more so.

Remember, the important thing is not their reaction but your response. If you can stand fast in the face of your parents' fury, accusations, threats and guilt-peddling, you will experience your finest hour.

Here are some typical parental reactions to confrontation:

"It never happened". Parents who have used denial to avoid their own feelings of inadequacy or anxiety, will undoubtedly use it during confrontation, to promote their version of reality. They'll insist that your allegations never happened, or that you're exaggerating. They won't remember, or they will accuse you of lying.

YOUR RESPONSE: Just because you don't remember, doesn't mean it didn't happen".

"It was your fault." Toxic parents are almost never willing to accept responsibility for their destructive behaviour. Instead, they will blame you. They will say that you were bad, or that you were difficult. They will claim that they did the best that they could but that you always created problems for them. They will say that you drove them crazy. They will offer as proof, the fact that everybody in the family knew what a problem you were. They will offer up a laundry list of your alleged offences against them.

YOUR RESPONSE: "You can keep trying to make this my fault, but I'm not going to accept the responsibility for what you did to me, when I was a child".

"I said I was sorry what more do you want?" Some parents may acknowledge a few of the things that you say but be unwilling to do anything about it.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate your apology, but that is just a beginning. If you're truly sorry, you'll work through this with me, to make a better relationship."

"We did the best we could." Some parents will remind you of how tough they had it while you were growing up and how hard they struggled. They will say such things as "You'll never understand what I was going through," or "I did the best I could". This particular style of response will often stir up a lot of sympathy and compassion for your parents. This is understandable, but it makes it difficult for you to remain focused on what you need to say in your confrontation. The temptation is for you once again to put their needs ahead of your own. It is important that you be able to acknowledge their difficulties, without invalidating your own.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I understand that you had a hard time, and I'm sure that you didn't hurt me on purpose, but I need you to understand that the way you dealt with your problems really did hurt me"

"Look what we did for you." Many parents will attempt to counter your assertions by recalling the wonderful times you had as a child and the loving moments you and they shared. By focusing on the good things, they can avoid looking at the darker side of their behaviour. Parents will typically remind you of gifts they gave you, places they took you, sacrifices they made for you, and thoughtful things they did. They will say things like, "this is the thanks we get" or "nothing was ever enough for you."

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate those things very much, but they didn't make up for ...."

"How can you do this to me?" Some parents act like martyrs. They'll collapse into tears, wring their hands, and express shock and disbelief at your "cruelty". They will act as if your confrontation has victimized them. They will accuse you of hurting them, or disappointing them. They will complain that they don't need this, they have enough problems. They will tell you that they are not strong enough or healthy enough to take this, that the heartache will kill them. Some of their sadness will, of course, be genuine. It is sad for parents to face their own shortcomings, to realise that they have caused their children significant pain. But their sadness can also be manipulative and controlling. It is their way of using guilt to try to make you back down from the confrontation.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I'm sorry you're upset. I'm sorry you're hurt. But I'm not willing to give up on this. I've been hurting for a long time, too."

Helpful Websites

Alice Miller

Personality Disorders definition

More helpful links:

Daughters of narcissistic mothers
Out of the FOG
You carry the cure in your own heart
Help for adult children of child abuse
Pete Walker

Some books:

Homecoming
Will I ever be good enough?
If you had controlling parents
When you and your mother can't be friends
Children of the self-absorbed
Recovery of your inner child

This final quote is from smithfield posting as therealsmithfield:

"I'm sure the other posters will be along shortly to add anything they feel I have left out. I personally don't claim to be sorted but I will say my head has become a helluva lot straighter since I started posting here. You will receive a lot of wisdom but above all else the insights and advice given will 'always' be delivered with warmth and support."

Gastons Yes you can and you are allowed to be upset. Not only your mum is not taking responsibility but she is putting it all onto you. It is her stuff. Not yours. You don't have to accept to bear the weight of it.

Hello attila thank you for the response.

You're right. I know that. But I've never heard her say it and even though it wasn't a shock, it did something. It was like a let down, like finally she admitted and I could just exhale a great sigh of relief almost.

I have no siblings but we did have an extended family that don't have much to do with her anymore because of her attitude. She's all about the airs and graces and I think everybody has seen through her shit.

I've not seen or heard from her since March. Another juvenile over reaction from her about something and nothing, my fault as usual. But we've got some business to take care of which unfortunately has meant speaking to her and it's all kicked off again. I wouldn't have talked to her if I didn't have to.

Hi all. I posted on here exceptionally briefly yonks (threads) ago. I didn't go into too much detail for outage fear. But as I'm growing older and reaching that stage where I no longer give a toss/life is too short/valuing my worth blah blah, which is great, something is troubling me.

Given the amount of threads I'm quite sure many of you will relate and hopefully, be able to give me some words of wisdom. I'm not interested in counselling (been there, didn't work, totally not bothered)

Ok. This won't be long and is very shortened! Abused and beaten as a child, daily by a woman who wasn't a relative, but who we lived with (me and DB and our Mother) It didn't matter what we did, we were beaten. Could have been over anything- looking at her a certain way, or that there was an R in the month. When we told our Mother (after her returning from work) we were NEVER believed and hit again for "lying".

The problem (one of them!) that I have is that I frequently "over explain" or attempt to justify myself for circumstances (see below) or situations where I believe there's a chance that someone might not believe me. I hope that makes sense. For example, I had major surgery earlier this year and had to be off work for a long recovery. Now this is completely normal. There's not a medical bod or employer in the land that would dispute either the severity or the recovery time required. Yet when folk popped round, I found myself going into the nth detail and (ashamedly) exaggerating the symptoms etc so that they would absolutely "believe" me. With no good reason whatsoever. Not needed. Made me sound insane almost. And these were just "folk", not even bosses etc (don't get me wrong, I never exaggerated symptoms etc to medical folk). Now I'm waffling and making it sound worse than it probably was I know why I do it, where it stems from. But how do I stop it?? I know I'm a good person. It's like I can hear myself doing it but I'm like a runaway train.

Welcome to elemet too

Told my parents about our plans to have my DWs sterilisation reversed and to try for another baby on Saturday night, to be shot down, told I'm a shit parent and that they won't contribute even £1 to the operation. We need to save £5,000 for it. Plus on a timescale, and neither of us work due to disabilities.

Am hardly surprised they can find something joyous to turn against me though!

I guess they won't want anything to do with a potential future grandchild....

Shakey I don't know the actual answer to your question, but wonder if you are being very hard on yourself. I think it's OK to be a bit eccentric in at least one, if not several ways and its something people happily forgive in others. It's just your background makes it hard for you to accept in yourself . You also beat yourself up having done it, perhaps not the same standards as you would hold someone else to?

Steve you know damned well they would be drawn to a grandchild like moths to a flame..controlling the child, controlling you through the child, controlling you by ignoring the child...ohhh the possibilities!
See, they've started already..and if they contributed, they would expect you to be beholden...forever.. If I was a betting person I'd bet on them changing their minds, several times - for maximum impact.
Omg I wish I wasn't this cynical...but...am I cynical enough ?

Gaston welcome to the thread. I'm so sorry you got this heartbreaking piece of shit from your mother. If it's any comfort at all - it's the classic thing that abusers will say. "I wouldn't have to hit you if you'd just do as I say." It's as unnacceptable against a child as against a partner.

What do you feel you want to do now? Have you been in regular contact with your mum up to now?

Shakey welcome back.
The problem (one of them!) that I have is that I frequently "over explain" or attempt to justify myself for circumstances (see below) or situations where I believe there's a chance that someone might not believe me.
Oh god yes, I used to do this ALL. THE. TIME. It's something I became aware I was doing and have been mainly successful about cutting down on. Being aware of this behaviour, and what prompts it, is probably the most important step.

Being disbelieved is a massive trigger point for me and I tend to react very aggressively now... Which is not great if it's a work situation

I do think the over-explaining/justifying thing is common to women in general, although magnified in cases like ours. It stems from societal expectations that women will do what we're bloody well told, and if we use an excuse to not do something that someone else wants us to do, it needs to be utterly unimpeachable. So that we can say "Oh I really WOULD do that, I absolutely would want to help you out, but unfortunately my elderly relative is being buried and it's a 4-hour drive to the church."

Because you know, saying "No that's not convenient for me, sorry" is not enough

665 and Mum2mum thanks for your support.

You're bang on that NC isn't the same process for everyone. It also feels a bit more complex for me because my mum doesn't present as a narcissist. I have to keep reminding myself at times that it doesn't matter whether she means to be deliberately damaging; she IS damaging and I need to protect myself and my son.

It would be easier if she was overtly abusive, in a way. It's been far harder to go NC with her than with my dad. I haven't spoken to him since I was 15 and I've never wasted a minute of my life agonising over that decision! I know some people who don't have contact with their dads who've said things like "Oh I really felt it when I got married, my brother/uncle/grandad had to give me away and we couldn't have the daddy-daughter dance."

Well I had no idea that this "daddy-daughter" dance was a thing and anyway we didn't have music or dancing at my wedding. I don't think it even crossed my mind for a second on my wedding day that I was "missing out" in any way. Mind you, I was in such a frenzy of nerves that I can't remember much of the day before the ceremony anyway.

BTW in the run up to the wedding my mum was constantly saying "It's not too late to back out you know", and "If you don't want to do this, you don't have to." Real subtle

So last night I didn't dream about either of my parents. Win! Instead I had a dream that for some reason I'd turned up to work wearing a skirt (I don't wear skirts. Have one in my wardrobe which I haven't worn in about 4-5 years.) Which was fine until one of my colleagues said "That skirt looks good, you should wear them more often, but maybe shave your legs next time?" I woke up actually thinking I had 3-4 skirts in my wardrobe and I was going to have to go and shave my luxuriant and warm leg hair off in the name of patriarchal beauty standards. It was a relief to realise it was just a dream

We never did have a good mother/daughter relationship tbh. Being kicked out of my home at 15 saw me hiding away from her for 2 years, then after my third baby was born, our relationship did grow to something I would even call friendly but in the last couple of years it's been back to controlling and demanding, very emotionally draining. There was a big argument and I decided that I just couldn't take it from her anymore.

Now, I've got this matter of business that I need to deal with, quickly hopefully, then I can just get the heck away from her! She's poison.

She hasn't seen her grandchildren in 12 months and hasn't so much as asked after them. But she's told me that she wants to see them and all I can think is to keep my babies as close as possible in case she starts with them too.

Steve, out of interest what reaction did you expect from your parents? Seriously? Why would hey be supportive of you now?

I get the cost means you have to make more time to do it, given there is no salary coming in at the moment, but a reaction like that to wanting to spend 5k you don't have, given the work situation isn't an almighty stretch.

I think you have to set your minds, move on, do whatever it takes to recover from their poor treatment of you as a priority and see where you are then. Your mental health and recovery from their abuse needs to come before planning another child tbh.

You deserve to be happy. You need to rid yourself of the weight of crap they've bestowed on you. £5k would be better spent on you as a man than on a potential and as yet I conceived child.

Sorry, don't mean to be blunt or harsh, but you matter more because you exist. Your inner child needs help, that's where to start imvho

Pls excuse phone typos too :)

Gaston if you as an adult have trouble dealing with your mum's spiteful ways, what are the chances that your young children will have the mental and emotional awareness and resources to deal with her? Protect your kids, don't let her anywhere near them. They will certainly not suffer for not having this poisonous child abuser in their lives.

If you need to be in contact with her for the next little while, then I'd suggest just giving vague excuses about the DC for now. "Oh they are awfully busy, little Jenny has ballet and a sleepover this weekend, and Tommy is away on a football trip. Maybe next month some time." Just keep bullshitting basically until you're in a position to cut her out completely.

I'm doing my best to keep up the bullshit pocket but she lays it on so thick with the guilt and blame.

Even though it's been her choice to ignore them for a year, she says that I should have made them available to her, I should have made the effort. Honestly, it's laughable and writing it down feels ridiculous but being in it feels like being swallowed up with her control!

I know that it's not my fault and I have nothing to feel guilty about but the kids do love her and they do miss her. I know they are better off having nothing to do with her and I'm not going to give in and let them see her.

I just don't why it feels so horrible.

Gaston

Re your comment that I have separated out:-

"I know that it's not my fault"

Correct

"and I have nothing to feel guilty about"

Correct again

"but the kids do love her and they do miss her"
I actually doubt that very much, they after all have not seen her for ages and you are after all protecting them from bad things. Family are not binding. They have likely seen how you as their mum have been treated all too clearly. Children love grandparents anyway no matter how rubbish they are and your mother is a particularly abusive example of one. She was not a good parent to you and will be a rubbish example of a grandparent to your children if she was allowed any sort of access to them.

"I know they are better off having nothing to do with her and I'm not going to give in and let them see her".

Good. Write that thought down somewhere so you can look at it every day.

I just don't why it feels so horrible".

It feels horrible because it also goes against societal convention.

Do you really have to be in any contact with her; can an intermediary like a solicitor or an accountant be at all used if its a financial matter?. Its only something I thought of.

Ok, consider my head wobbled

I will keep remembering to repeat the mantra.

Unfortunately, I don't think any of us are in a position to afford solicitors at the moment. But i will talk with dh about it and see if we can possibly stretch to it. Neither of us really want the hassle of her, dh is being very good about it but he struggles not to get the rage when he can see how upset I am.

Hello everyone.

I posted a little while ago, and your help was invaluable.

I can see that we are all on a journey, some further on, some starting out (like myself), and some stuck for now. It's a battle, but I have learned that once you recognise it, that is half the blimmin battle.

I haven't visited Mum for a while now. She hasn't contacted me. My sister visited her today and she got the works from her about me and my selfishness. My mother replied that I am unstable and an alcoholic...wtf? My sis really stood up for me and gave her what for. But neither sis nor bro are the targets. I am and always have been.

Anyway, since I have decided to start with Minimal Contact, and my next visit is Sunday, (after about 3 weeks instead of much more, yikes!) I just wondered if any of you people here have any "words", "sentences" or other strategies to use when Mum starts to kick off. I am a bit lost with that. I cannot even visualise me saying something to her about her behaviour and my boundaries.

OH will be with me. He is a rock, but wants me cut contact completely. I can't just yet, but will try the minimal route for now and see how that goes.

Thanks.

Hi everyone, started to see a councillor again, they were impressed at all the work that had already done. I didn't even get upset like I used to before. Thanks to reading all your posts on here and reading and researching has really helped me understand that its not me its them and I am not to blame and I am a good and nice person and worthy of being loved. A big thank you..

Hi angelwings. You are right, we are not to blame and never will be. I hope you will be ok.

It is a long journey we have to make isn't it.

It has been a tough and long journey and probably not over yet. I have been NC for nearly 2 years. I have to endure countless texts from the flying monkeys accusing me of being mad, letters sent accusing me of upsetting the whole family. Blaming me for something I haven't done. Visiting my house uninvited and trying to get to me through friends. Still not getting the hint that I do not wish to speak to them, as DM has twisted and turned all my family against me. It's been hell but I feel a whole lot better from not having them in my life. Onwards and upwards!!!

Dubby

Re your comment:-

"Anyway, since I have decided to start with Minimal Contact, and my next visit is Sunday, (after about 3 weeks instead of much more, yikes!) I just wondered if any of you people here have any "words", "sentences" or other strategies to use when Mum starts to kick off. I am a bit lost with that. I cannot even visualise me saying something to her about her behaviour and my boundaries.

OH will be with me. He is a rock, but wants me cut contact completely. I can't just yet, but will try the minimal route for now and see how that goes".

Your mother has not contacted you and has also described you to your sister as unstable and an alcoholic.

Where are you meeting your mother; on her home turf?. No, no and no again if that is the case. This would be really walking into the lions den.
How do you think Sunday's visit is really going to play out here?. Its more likely than not going to go badly and you will be the one who will feel hurt.
It sounds like you are perhaps trying to put off the inevitable with her by trying minimal contact to begin with.

I would actually cancel Sunday's visit but if you feel you still cannot do that (I presume you are only going at all because you want to perhaps give her another chance) I would have higher, consistent and firm boundaries in place for when (not if) she kicks off in your presence.

What are your boundaries like re your mother anyway?. If these are still pretty much non existent or if she sees you as an extension of her I would not see her at all.

I would also regard low or minimal contact now as an occasional phone call, not an actual visit. She cannot be trusted to behave or be civil; if she can say those awful things to your sister what could she say in front of you. Also low contact more often than not leads to no contact.

You would not have tolerated any of that from a friend, your mother is really no different.

As soon as she starts you leave; there is no response from you other than putting your coat on and leaving. Words will have no effect whatsoever; it just gives these people even more reason to attack you outright.

Dubby,

It is also not possible to have a relationship with a narcissist. You are really her scapegoat for all her inherent ills.

It is not your fault your mother is the ways she is; you did not make her that way.

Well said Attila, you will never win, get an apology or be right against a narcissist..

Attila you are like Yoda

Some of what you've said to Dubby makes so much sense to me too.

Someone just drive into my drive, knocked on the door, twice.. I didn't answer. I clocked the car luckily as it stopped because i was putting tea on plates by the window. I didn't change what I was doing, ignored the door, took DD into the next room and sat down to eat. They knocked a second time.. then no more. It can only really be DM who I've been NC with for nearly a month now. No-one else comes to my house at this time of the evening, ever, and friends would have messaged/called. I sat eating but physically shaking. It spoilt my tea which I was quite looking forward to. I only returned home with DD about 20 minutes before that, but as I did I saw DM's friends who live opposite return too. I'm wondering whether they told her I was in, it's a strange coincidence.

'I wouldn't have to hit you if you'd just do as I say' I hadn't even remembered/thought of it that way, thank you for articulating why it is so wrong, that has really helped. That's exactly what was said to me and how DM would still justify it to this day.