"But we took you to Stately Homes!" Survivors of Dysfunctional Families

[OnceAMeerNotAlwaysAMeer]

It's November '15, and the Stately Home is still open to visitors.

Forerunning threads:
December 2007
March 2008
August 2008
February 2009
May 2009
January 2010
April 2010
August 2010
March 2011
November 2011
January 2012
November 2012
January 2013
March 2013
August 2013
December 2013
February 2014
April 2014
July 2014
Oct 14 – Dec 14
Dec 14 – March 15
March - Nov 2015

Welcome to the Stately Homes Thread.

This is a long running thread which was originally started up by 'pages' see original thread here (December 2007)

So this thread originates from that thread and has become a safe haven for Adult children of abusive families.

One thing you will never hear on this thread is that your abuse or experience was not that bad. You will never have your feelings minimised the way they were when you were a child, or now that you are an adult. To coin the phrase of a much respected past poster Ally90;

'Nobody can judge how sad your childhood made you, even if you wrote a novel on it, only you know that. I can well imagine any of us saying some of the seemingly trivial things our parents/ siblings did to us to many of our real life acquaintances and them not understanding why we were upset/ angry/ hurt etc. And that is why this thread is here. It's a safe place to vent our true feelings, validate our childhood/ lifetime experiences of being hurt/ angry etc by our parents behaviour and to get support for dealing with family in the here and now.'

Most new posters generally start off their posts by saying; but it wasn't that bad for me or my experience wasn't as awful as x,y or z's.

Some on here have been emotionally abused and/ or physically abused. Some are not sure what category (there doesn't have to be any) they fall into.

NONE of that matters. What matters is how 'YOU' felt growing up, how 'YOU' feel now and a chance to talk about how and why those childhood experiences and/ or current parental contact, has left you feeling damaged, falling apart from the inside out and stumbling around trying to find your sense of self-worth.

You might also find the following links and information useful, if you have come this far and are still not sure whether you belong here or not.

'Toxic Parents' by Susan Forward.

I started with this book and found it really useful.

Here are some excerpts:

"Once you get going, most toxic parents will counterattack. After all, if they had the capacity to listen, to hear, to be reasonable, to respect your feelings, and to promote your independence, they wouldn't be toxic parents. They will probably perceive your words as treacherous personal assaults. They will tend to fall back on the same tactics and defences that they have always used, only more so.

Remember, the important thing is not their reaction but your response. If you can stand fast in the face of your parents' fury, accusations, threats and guilt-peddling, you will experience your finest hour.

Here are some typical parental reactions to confrontation:

"It never happened". Parents who have used denial to avoid their own feelings of inadequacy or anxiety, will undoubtedly use it during confrontation, to promote their version of reality. They'll insist that your allegations never happened, or that you're exaggerating. They won't remember, or they will accuse you of lying.

YOUR RESPONSE: Just because you don't remember, doesn't mean it didn't happen".

"It was your fault." Toxic parents are almost never willing to accept responsibility for their destructive behaviour. Instead, they will blame you. They will say that you were bad, or that you were difficult. They will claim that they did the best that they could but that you always created problems for them. They will say that you drove them crazy. They will offer as proof, the fact that everybody in the family knew what a problem you were. They will offer up a laundry list of your alleged offences against them.

YOUR RESPONSE: "You can keep trying to make this my fault, but I'm not going to accept the responsibility for what you did to me, when I was a child".

"I said I was sorry what more do you want?" Some parents may acknowledge a few of the things that you say but be unwilling to do anything about it.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate your apology, but that is just a beginning. If you're truly sorry, you'll work through this with me, to make a better relationship."

"We did the best we could." Some parents will remind you of how tough they had it while you were growing up and how hard they struggled. They will say such things as "You'll never understand what I was going through," or "I did the best I could". This particular style of response will often stir up a lot of sympathy and compassion for your parents. This is understandable, but it makes it difficult for you to remain focused on what you need to say in your confrontation. The temptation is for you once again to put their needs ahead of your own. It is important that you be able to acknowledge their difficulties, without invalidating your own.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I understand that you had a hard time, and I'm sure that you didn't hurt me on purpose, but I need you to understand that the way you dealt with your problems really did hurt me"

"Look what we did for you." Many parents will attempt to counter your assertions by recalling the wonderful times you had as a child and the loving moments you and they shared. By focusing on the good things, they can avoid looking at the darker side of their behaviour. Parents will typically remind you of gifts they gave you, places they took you, sacrifices they made for you, and thoughtful things they did. They will say things like, "this is the thanks we get" or "nothing was ever enough for you."

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate those things very much, but they didn't make up for ...."

"How can you do this to me?" Some parents act like martyrs. They'll collapse into tears, wring their hands, and express shock and disbelief at your "cruelty". They will act as if your confrontation has victimized them. They will accuse you of hurting them, or disappointing them. They will complain that they don't need this, they have enough problems. They will tell you that they are not strong enough or healthy enough to take this, that the heartache will kill them. Some of their sadness will, of course, be genuine. It is sad for parents to face their own shortcomings, to realise that they have caused their children significant pain. But their sadness can also be manipulative and controlling. It is their way of using guilt to try to make you back down from the confrontation.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I'm sorry you're upset. I'm sorry you're hurt. But I'm not willing to give up on this. I've been hurting for a long time, too."

Helpful Websites

Alice Miller

Personality Disorders definition

More helpful links:

Daughters of narcissistic mothers
Out of the FOG
You carry the cure in your own heart
Help for adult children of child abuse
Pete Walker

Some books:

Homecoming
Will I ever be good enough?
If you had controlling parents
When you and your mother can't be friends
Children of the self-absorbed
Recovery of your inner child

This final quote is from smithfield posting as therealsmithfield:

"I'm sure the other posters will be along shortly to add anything they feel I have left out. I personally don't claim to be sorted but I will say my head has become a helluva lot straighter since I started posting here. You will receive a lot of wisdom but above all else the insights and advice given will 'always' be delivered with warmth and support."

Geranium Les the guilt. He makes you feel ill because he treats you so badly, that's his look out.

LOSE!

Ha ha, leave Les out of it!

I'm just so pissed off right now. Everything's hitting me from all directions that's gone wrong, influenced significantly by parental input. I don't know how to fix things, I used to be bright, inquisitive, intelligent, slim! Everything feels so empty and dulled. Years and years of shit.

I've read a little of the book you suggested pocket - there's a paragraph on childhood abuse manifesting as significant illness, then a survey - people who had experienced any neglect suffered illness. I feel....validated almost for being so ill.

I have goals - my degree, a baby, but even now there are such significant hurdles - why can I not get a substantial lucky break.

My mother is influencing my father again, he's barely talking to me, very aloof and cold, everything takes so much effort.

Sorry, I'm feeling sorry for myself aren't I... Everything seems out of reach..

It's not easy Steve. I get really angry sometimes when I think about the number of NAD decisions I've made and opportunities I've lost as a result of the abuse and not knowing my own mind for so long, feeling like I had an obligation to justify my place on this earth, looking at every situation as something I had to live up to instead of asking what I would get out of it. And the years of stepping around my mother and trying to deal with her positively for her benefit - all that energy poured down the drain. I'm nearly 40 and there is no going back from a lot of those decisions.

I guess making peace with the difficulties you've suffered is part of what you need to do in therapy. You've got to hope that things like gettinmslim and getting well will get easier as a result of working through the abuse.

I'm not surprised you're getting the cold shoulder off your dad. It takes two to tango - the enabling parent is getting something from the dysfunctional family dynamic too.
Baby steps - focus on getting through each day. You don't have to solve everything at once and this fight is the fight of your life, it is really exhausting.

Steve one of the things we need to do more is to feel sorry for ourselves. To stop apologising for existing and to stop taking crap.

Get angry! You have every right to! If your father is being aloof, call him on it or passive aggressively tell him when he's ready to be a man and not playing fluffy lap dog to your mother to give you a ring.

Then do your own thing. let them stew.

It's a difficult read Steve but it's also a real eye opener.

It made me realise how my parents minimised my physical pain that I was in as well as any emotional pain. I was not allowed to feel or express pain or sadness or fear. It was incredibly restricting and those negative emotions turned inwards and began to manifest as physical pain instead.

I was told that my pain didn't exist. That I could not complain about it because there was nothing wrong with me. Despite the fact I would be crying every morning and every night, that I would literally writhe around in my bed when I laid down at night because my spine was so painful. But no, my pain did not exist. I was "making a fuss over nothing".

Hi everyone, I'm an infrequent poster here. I made a separate thread once because I felt guilty about not being on here more before posting about myself and was told to come back, it's ok. So I hope it is!

I'm having therapy - talking and EMDR - with two separate people. It's been so hard. I am now just so incredibly sad about..well that's just it. I'm just sad about everything. That my childhood was the way it was, that the things that happened after it did, that all my decisions have been made by a brain that doesn't think properly because of what happened. Some days I feel fine and this part of me is relegated and others I just feel so sad.

I accidentally skyped my "D"M last night instead of DH. She kept calling and calling so I just answered essentially to tell her I'd been calling someone else. I could see she was so disappointed. I never call her. But then after even that I'm left looking at her feeling sorry for her whilst I have a flashback (she abused me).

I can't get my head around the fact that I'm not strong. I used to think I was invincible, but understanding just how much damage has been done to me I now feel, well, damaged.

I know I'm low, I know it'll pass (play date in about 15 mins so it will have to!), but it's still there.

And I'm so lucky to have the professional help I do. I know that. But I'm also studying counselling and psychology and am now thinking that I'm really too damaged to ever be able to be of any help to anybody. It was my dream as a teenager that was quashed by "D"M, so it hurts all the more now that I'm finally on that track.

Anybody out there with some helpful words?

Hi underbaker, welcome to the thread.

My dream too was shattered by my mother, I think it's important to realise that persistent abuse in our childhood years has such a significant, long-lasting effect. In my case, the major psychological effect only manifested many years after the abuse had stopped.

It's very important to realise that you're damaged, I've personally found things easier to deal with since admitting it to myself. It's important to surround yourself with love, warmth and something you enjoy on days you feel low.

It's great you have the professional help in place and I hope you can start healing as a result. I'd argue that people neglected and/or abused as children are very, very strong too. Best wishes to you.

Thanks Steve. Do you mind me asking how you accepted you were damaged? It just feels like such a horrendous prospect right now. I mean it's enough that I'm feeling like I do and have done and to feel not worthy of much, but to add feeling damaged into the mix in an accepting it sort of way, rather than the current "I'm hoping it's not really true" is not a nice prospect.

thanks toomuch pocket hissy serious fantastic (awesome username btw) I’ve ignored DM’s message and there has been no further contact.. (from any family, my DS seems to have cut me off) ..it’s Sunday so she’s probably showing it round the pub as ‘proof’ of my sub-standard daughtering. And it shouldn’t matter what the people there think.. it’s just a smallish village and the group there includes people like my landlord, who I don’t want to see me as a ‘problem’ person based on DM spouting off. The trouble is I know she plays the victim role so well, it must sound as though I’m the world’s worst daughter, being so mean to her ever-generous and well-meaning mother. It’s easy to get anxious, obsess over this stuff.

Have started to read through the Toxic Parents book. There’s something that jumps out on almost every page.

Eternal you know that they believe it but it does not make it the truth! YOU only know what she is like. I guess it is difficult to put it behind if you keep bumping into her or her friends.

It genuinely doesn't matter what anyone thinks of you- only your nearest and dearest, everyone else is either with you, or can ftfo.

Under - it took a long time. I found this forum, and reading through various threads of dysfunction I had a lightbulb moment that my mother is narcissistic, and that I was emotionally abused. Up until that point I thought everything that had happened was kind of normal and that all kids went through hardship and being controlled.

I then spent a lot of time reading, getting my thoughts on paper and seeking therapy. As you'll see from my recent posts in this thread, I'm a mess and in constant disarray, yet having realised what happened and that I truly wasn't at fault I'm able to try to focus on rebuilding my eroded self esteem and self worth.

It's very tough, you'll get good advice here, I'm sorry you're feeling like this. I'll keep an eye out for your posts, and feel free to PM anytime if you need to.

Keep strong Eternal. It really does not matter a flying fuck what anyone things of you except your chosen family (i.e partner and children) and I suppose if you are working, your boss

Under things sound very hard. Do you think EMDR is working for you? How are the sessions? My DS was offered EMDR for his PTSD (traumatic events when living with his birth mum) but he thought it sounded really woo and didn't go for it. (Think he was also frightened when the psych stated it would involve reliving the traumatic memories. He wasn't ready then to face them head on.)

Hope everyone is okay this Monday. I have been having AWFUL dreams recently. It's horrible waking up every day with a sort of emotional hangover before I even start :(

Hi pocket , do you think your subconscious is trying to tell you something ?

In reply to pocketsaviour who aSked about EMDR, I know someone who has had EMDR for PTSD and it is making a big difference to traumatic memories for them. He is the sort of person who is the ultimate sceptic and definitely not into anything remotely woo! Wouldn't even go to doctors. But was desperate for help and fortunately found an experienced EMDR practitioner by recommendation.
The first few sessions were very difficult and they needed support around them. ( My counsellor suggested suggested encouraging him to go to GP for antidepressants prior to embarking on EMDR because of this. Person I know was determined not to take ADs but it might have helped).
About four sessions in he had a breakthrough moment when a particularly horrible memory "changed" into a memory he could recall and think about but without the pain and trauma. He described it as a sudden feeling of elation and calm at the same time and a bit weird. Continued to make progress from there.
Saw your post and thought I would respond as it seems a strange therapy but it does seem to work.

Hello, sorry to sort of butt in but could do with posting...
Haven't been through anything as bad as others (yes I know everyone says that but really...)

Anyway, at Christmas a load of stuff became clear about my childhood. I pointed out to my parents after my brother had done something odd, that it was obvious he was on the ASD spectrum. They said they knew and were sure I was too. Which is weird - I have suspected it myself but they said over the last few years they have decided I am. Anyway I asked why they thought that, and they said because when I was little I obviously "lacked empathy". When pressed as to evidence for this, they said I "made things difficult". (They got very defensive and acted like I was wrong for asking and being upset about this.)

Anyway they couldn't give any explanatin for what they meant by "making things difficult" beyond the fact that aged 6 my school were so worried they encouraged family counselling (which my parents cut short). They used to take us out of school for it, then go on at me for how awful it was for my older (clearly ASD) brother. Now I think about it, why did they take us out of school? Why not do it after 3pm?

Anyway, it just seems awful that a six year old thats being bullied (I vaguely remember them blaming that on me too) and seems disturbed, needing counselling, gets blamed like that! That is lacking empathy far more than me, I think. The counselling was dragged up over the years for a reason of how much they had to put up with from me, and how I was such a terrible person. Well, it was mainly my dad doing this. I get the impression my mum doesn't love me but tries really hard to, it's my dad who seems a bit narcicisstic. I remember as a teen thinking, it's like we're all characters in the play of his life, from his point of view. God I feel guilty writing this.

Thing is, with my brother being undiagnosed ASD, he used to do things that did "make things difficult". I remember his meltdowns, lying on the floor kicking and screaming, making the whole family eat restricted bland food so an even blander more restricted version could be set aside for him (didnt have a curry til I was 16). He used to get wound up and sound off about something, couldn't tell when it wasn't an appropriate time etc - when the home environment was volatile he'd just plough in and light the fuse, setting my dad off yelling. Meanwhile I tried to blend into the wallpaper, not do anything wrong or draw any attention, be soothing etc. But I got yelled at. I don't mean any bad feeling to my brother, obviously he didn't understand, but the crucial thing is, my parents don't talk of him being "difficult". I asked specifically and they said "Oh, but you could tell he had empathy". Well, yes, if you looked, you could. But then I looked after my much younger sibling a lot, especially when my mum was ill, also looked after her, wanted to be a nurse or "something that helped people", on my first day of nursery another child was crying and despite being shy I went and gave him a hug and kiss. As well as clearly reading feelings and acting appropriately compared to my DB. So why am I the one scapegoated as "lacking empathy"?! My mum always stuck up for him though (fair enough, she knew something was different about him), but not me.

Anyway, due to the yelling and stuff, by the time I was 12ish I had thoughts of suicide, it used to be when my dad yelled I'd feel like I was being stabbed in the chest and the world would spin and death seemed the only way out. When I was 13/14 I remember thinking suicide was defintely what I had to do, rather than more abstract concept like before. I told my parents that I felt awful and got yelled at by my dad, "what will people think?" etc. (Obviously I couldnt tell him that if only he'd be nice and not yell I'd be ok!) Now of course, he says they had no idea I felt so bad. I was put on antidepressants at 16/17, which they knew about, but it continued. By then I was feeling bad even when there was no shouting. I self harmed.

Left home at 18 and sought psych help at 19. Was labelled as a nasty, manipulative, evil attention seeker by the system. Went through loads of stuff that have traumatised me. I written a lot on here abot how the MH system has screwed me over. I can't get help from them, i've tried many times (I'm now 30). I'm single, childless, incredibly lonely etc. The system says I have BPD, but I don't meet the criteria (certainly not dramatically all over the place, dont self harm anymore etc) - I'm depressed with c-PTSD, thats how I'd describe it. I saw a private therapist until she suddenly stopped seeing me and wrote to my GP saying I urgently needed more help.

I'm sorry, I've written an essay. Anyway just couldnt stop thinking about it today, how I was labelled as "difficult" even though objectively my brother was much more difficult. How they call it "lacking empathy" because I needed counselling at 6 (which btw strongly influenced the later idea that I was fundamentally disordered in my personality). How they seem to have re-written history not based on the evidence at all. How "being difficult" seems to mean not being perfectly obliging and probably invisible. And I'm now suspecting I don't have ASD at all, but am just "disturbed".

elementofsurprise your family clearly failed you. They scapegoated you, they failed to see your emotional suffering and they added more by labelling you something nasty that you aren't.
It seems the system did not help either.
No one seems to see you for who you are. Welcome here. I think many of us can relate

pocketsprocket thanks for that. I think it's worth pursuing with DS but he would have to have appropriate support in place. At the moment he's living about 250 miles away and only has a key worker, no close family or friends. Might be something to address if I can move closer to him.

665 TBH I have far more dreams now about my parents than I ever did when I was in contact with my mum, which is really fucking annoying! I have had dreams throughout my life that my mum had allowed my dad to move back in or somehow to have access to me, and I am for some reason trapped living with them and cannot get away. My mum's denial of any danger is a big feature - "Oh yes I know he molested you but that was YEARS ago and he's promised not to do it again!"

I would have about one of these dreams per year over the last 20 years and they were upsetting but infrequent enough not to worry me. Then when my mum moved in with me after my Grandma died, they started up with a vengeance and I would have one about once a month. I understood that they were basically just pointing out that my mum would never have my safety at the forefront of her mind and that she was not to be trusted in any decision which could impact on my life.

After she moved back out the volume died down again, but since going NC it has become more frequent and at the moment they are at least once a week. On Sunday night I dreamed I fought my dad off by using a bucket full of piss and shit, which was at least entertaining Often I dream that my mum has somehow "tricked" me into being in contact again and I wake up from these really believing that it's happened and that I have to phone or email her.

The key theme is being TRAPPED and having NOBODY ON MY SIDE. Me against the two of them. Perhaps these are simply very painful emotions that I experienced as a child that I need to spend more time acknowledging and honouring. it's bloody tiring though!

Tonight my mum told me that she isn't sorry for frequently battering me senseless during my childhood and early teens.
She accepts no responsibility for it. It was my fault because I 'just wouldn't listen'.

There. I've written it. Ugh, sorry. I've never really been here before, I don't mean to jump on like this feel but I feel so stupidly idiotic for being that upset by this that I had to get it down just so that I can actually breathe.

Pocket I hadn't even thought it was woo! It's being don't by a very standard (and lovely) clinical psychologist. It's clinically proven to be one of the best therapies for trauma. However, with complex/multiple trauma it's not so straightforward as with something like a traumatic accident suffered by someone who had no other traumas prior to that.

I worked first on an attempted rape. One night, after about 9 weeks of EMDR (I know others have done it in less) I woke up and realised I no longer felt stressed or had flashbacks if I thought of this event. I felt completely relaxed. I knew it wasn't good, but i just didn't feel panicky etc recalling it. It was completely incredible!

And yes it is really, REALLY hard work. Horrific at times, but I'm getting out what I'm putting in so it's worth it for me. I read somewhere it's like 8 talking therapy sessions in one go. It kind of is, although for me it's got a better outcome because I've spent far more than that in therapy which has helped, bit by bit, but not solved the physical or emotional stress related to remembering the trauma.

Steve I'll PM

pocketsaviour I did wonder if - when I read your first post about your dreams increasing - if you might be suffering form some kind of transitioning anxiety?
I have noticed you cycling between anger and sadness on here and that is VERY exhausting - so I'm not surprised you are worn out -
and there’s just thinking about it so much - I see you on here offering advice and that in itself can be cathartic - but it can also be like taking a knife to a healing wound - its not always good.
I know people are quite inclined to point to you to one of the standard books when you go NC - but I repeat what I have said before - going NC doesn’t have a roadmap - there is no standard sequence of feelings to work your way through. So everything is..well normal, really and you have to be nice to yourself
I think Nc is in some ways devastating because it changes the way you see yourself - and others. Changes the way you interact - you have to rebuild parts of you just to look functional never mind be functional - and you want to scream and cry - a lot - but cant in public - because so very few people would understand - so you get little sympathy or understanding and quite importantly - support - and yet your whole world has changed..and you wonder why people don’t notice your screaming inside.
All your security - no matter that it was a false illusion - is gone ...by choice...societal norms...nope - threw them out..
so bad dreams seem quite - well - normal and reasonable really..
But I think the thing about transitioning - between one way of being - and another - is there’s a great big sunny beach over here ..right now I'm in blue skys and calm waters
and I'm saving you a Margarita with an umbrella in it ! (waves)

but you have to save one for me when I wander off into the FOG ..

Speaking of which anybody seen Attilla about ? Shes been gone over a week now - its not like her ?

Pocket first you are not alone, we are here although not physically.
However I can understand if that feeling is so present for you. Have you ever considered joining a support group for survivors?
Being there in flesh and blood can be therapeutic on its own.
And also I find that working out the meaning of my dreams helps me shed some light on stuff. Do you look into dream symbolism sometimes?

Hello 665, am still about. Blue skies and calm waters sounds good!. Endless Tupperware grey sky here.

Gastons - welcome to the Stately Homes thread. This type of response from your mother is typical from a toxic parent; such people never apologise nor accept any responsibility for their actions. She was not a good parent to you (understatement) and still isn't.

Do you have siblings; if so what sort of relationship do they have with their mother now?.

It is NOT your fault your mother is the ways she is; you did not make her this way. I would go no contact as of now with her without a second glance but its not always as straight forward as that (FOG; fear, obligation and guilt can still have a pull).