"But we took you to Stately Homes!" Survivors of Dysfunctional Families

[OnceAMeerNotAlwaysAMeer]

It's November '15, and the Stately Home is still open to visitors.

Forerunning threads:
December 2007
March 2008
August 2008
February 2009
May 2009
January 2010
April 2010
August 2010
March 2011
November 2011
January 2012
November 2012
January 2013
March 2013
August 2013
December 2013
February 2014
April 2014
July 2014
Oct 14 – Dec 14
Dec 14 – March 15
March - Nov 2015

Welcome to the Stately Homes Thread.

This is a long running thread which was originally started up by 'pages' see original thread here (December 2007)

So this thread originates from that thread and has become a safe haven for Adult children of abusive families.

One thing you will never hear on this thread is that your abuse or experience was not that bad. You will never have your feelings minimised the way they were when you were a child, or now that you are an adult. To coin the phrase of a much respected past poster Ally90;

'Nobody can judge how sad your childhood made you, even if you wrote a novel on it, only you know that. I can well imagine any of us saying some of the seemingly trivial things our parents/ siblings did to us to many of our real life acquaintances and them not understanding why we were upset/ angry/ hurt etc. And that is why this thread is here. It's a safe place to vent our true feelings, validate our childhood/ lifetime experiences of being hurt/ angry etc by our parents behaviour and to get support for dealing with family in the here and now.'

Most new posters generally start off their posts by saying; but it wasn't that bad for me or my experience wasn't as awful as x,y or z's.

Some on here have been emotionally abused and/ or physically abused. Some are not sure what category (there doesn't have to be any) they fall into.

NONE of that matters. What matters is how 'YOU' felt growing up, how 'YOU' feel now and a chance to talk about how and why those childhood experiences and/ or current parental contact, has left you feeling damaged, falling apart from the inside out and stumbling around trying to find your sense of self-worth.

You might also find the following links and information useful, if you have come this far and are still not sure whether you belong here or not.

'Toxic Parents' by Susan Forward.

I started with this book and found it really useful.

Here are some excerpts:

"Once you get going, most toxic parents will counterattack. After all, if they had the capacity to listen, to hear, to be reasonable, to respect your feelings, and to promote your independence, they wouldn't be toxic parents. They will probably perceive your words as treacherous personal assaults. They will tend to fall back on the same tactics and defences that they have always used, only more so.

Remember, the important thing is not their reaction but your response. If you can stand fast in the face of your parents' fury, accusations, threats and guilt-peddling, you will experience your finest hour.

Here are some typical parental reactions to confrontation:

"It never happened". Parents who have used denial to avoid their own feelings of inadequacy or anxiety, will undoubtedly use it during confrontation, to promote their version of reality. They'll insist that your allegations never happened, or that you're exaggerating. They won't remember, or they will accuse you of lying.

YOUR RESPONSE: Just because you don't remember, doesn't mean it didn't happen".

"It was your fault." Toxic parents are almost never willing to accept responsibility for their destructive behaviour. Instead, they will blame you. They will say that you were bad, or that you were difficult. They will claim that they did the best that they could but that you always created problems for them. They will say that you drove them crazy. They will offer as proof, the fact that everybody in the family knew what a problem you were. They will offer up a laundry list of your alleged offences against them.

YOUR RESPONSE: "You can keep trying to make this my fault, but I'm not going to accept the responsibility for what you did to me, when I was a child".

"I said I was sorry what more do you want?" Some parents may acknowledge a few of the things that you say but be unwilling to do anything about it.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate your apology, but that is just a beginning. If you're truly sorry, you'll work through this with me, to make a better relationship."

"We did the best we could." Some parents will remind you of how tough they had it while you were growing up and how hard they struggled. They will say such things as "You'll never understand what I was going through," or "I did the best I could". This particular style of response will often stir up a lot of sympathy and compassion for your parents. This is understandable, but it makes it difficult for you to remain focused on what you need to say in your confrontation. The temptation is for you once again to put their needs ahead of your own. It is important that you be able to acknowledge their difficulties, without invalidating your own.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I understand that you had a hard time, and I'm sure that you didn't hurt me on purpose, but I need you to understand that the way you dealt with your problems really did hurt me"

"Look what we did for you." Many parents will attempt to counter your assertions by recalling the wonderful times you had as a child and the loving moments you and they shared. By focusing on the good things, they can avoid looking at the darker side of their behaviour. Parents will typically remind you of gifts they gave you, places they took you, sacrifices they made for you, and thoughtful things they did. They will say things like, "this is the thanks we get" or "nothing was ever enough for you."

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate those things very much, but they didn't make up for ...."

"How can you do this to me?" Some parents act like martyrs. They'll collapse into tears, wring their hands, and express shock and disbelief at your "cruelty". They will act as if your confrontation has victimized them. They will accuse you of hurting them, or disappointing them. They will complain that they don't need this, they have enough problems. They will tell you that they are not strong enough or healthy enough to take this, that the heartache will kill them. Some of their sadness will, of course, be genuine. It is sad for parents to face their own shortcomings, to realise that they have caused their children significant pain. But their sadness can also be manipulative and controlling. It is their way of using guilt to try to make you back down from the confrontation.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I'm sorry you're upset. I'm sorry you're hurt. But I'm not willing to give up on this. I've been hurting for a long time, too."

Helpful Websites

Alice Miller

Personality Disorders definition

More helpful links:

Daughters of narcissistic mothers
Out of the FOG
You carry the cure in your own heart
Help for adult children of child abuse
Pete Walker

Some books:

Homecoming
Will I ever be good enough?
If you had controlling parents
When you and your mother can't be friends
Children of the self-absorbed
Recovery of your inner child

This final quote is from smithfield posting as therealsmithfield:

"I'm sure the other posters will be along shortly to add anything they feel I have left out. I personally don't claim to be sorted but I will say my head has become a helluva lot straighter since I started posting here. You will receive a lot of wisdom but above all else the insights and advice given will 'always' be delivered with warmth and support."

Too often the wrong parent dies first. Sometimes because the other is left with a health issue the partner has helped manage. Sometimes because the one left behind can't come to terms with the grief, their partner having been the one with inner strength. And sometimes, sadly, the nasty one remains and thrives on their spitefulness

good, I also took the opportunity of moving house to break contact. Luckily my mum doesn't do email and wouldn't know my address so that's pretty much it - she sent Christmas cards to our old address and they got redirected to us but the redirection emd in a couple of months.
What would happen if you just blocked her on phone and email? Would she put pressure on the rest of the family to explain what's going on?

Steve best of luck with the counselling today

dubby my dad died first (although I was an adult) and I have mixed feelings about it, a set of emotions that doesn't make me look good at all.... I was really sad that he never got free of my mum and had some peace and chance to be his generous sociable self, but then I had always worried about what would happen if my mum went first because there was no sign that he would be able to look after himself as he had learned helplessness. At some point in my teenage years I realised that I was getting out but that he wouldn't get out unless he could find someone else wiling to take care of him, and I wasn't. I always felt a bit guilty about that but I apply the "what if it was your children" test and I would not expect that from them. It was hard as he got older, he wanted me to visit more but I hated seeing my mother. When he was dying of cancer, half the stress on me came from having to deal with my mother, and 6 days after he died she turned round and made a blatant play for some narcissistic supply from me, her supply having just died, and I think it was no coincidence that she did it the day before his funeral because I felt too guilty to break contact at that point. I wish I had though, having her in my life for those remaining 5 years brought nothing but trouble to my life.

Fuck me.

I arrive for my appointment to find the counsellor hadn't arrived due to snow/ice. I live in the countryside with ungritted roads and got there. I stood there mouth gaping like a fish.

After time preparing for this, worrying, bricking it....is distraught too dramatic?

Meh.

No man, distraught is not too dramatic. That must be gutting when you've been nerving yourself up for this since before Christmas at the very least.

Did they reschedule for you?

I came on to share a funny/tragic thing I just remembered. One of my mother's favourite expressions, on someone having crossed her (i.e. looked at her funny, commented that they had had the same brand of umbrella as hers but didn't like it because it broke easily, that sort of thing) was "Vengeance is MINE, saith the Lord" - usually delivered with her trademark angry face of gritted teeth and half-suppressed roar in the voice. I just looked it up, the full verse.

Recompense to no man evil for evil. Provide things honest in the sight of all men. If it be possible, as much as lieth in you, live peaceably with all men. Dearly beloved, avenge not yourselves, but [rather] give place unto wrath: for it is written, Vengeance [is] mine; I will repay, saith the Lord. Therefore if thine enemy hunger, feed him; if he thirst, give him drink: for in so doing thou shalt heap coals of fire on his head. Be not overcome of evil, but overcome evil with good.

Reading that just makes me feel calm. I'm not religious, but it is a comfort to think of the people down the ages who read and understood it, and the people who wrote it, and know that they were on our side, and not that of our abusers.

Not yet. Waiting for them to ring.

That's a really powerful piece, regardless of religious stance, has made me pause to think.

Oh Steve that sucks :( I hope they can reschedule quickly for you. Did you take the day off work?

toomuch It's very amusing when people use Bible verses or quotes inappropriately. Do you think she said it as a shorthand for "I would be killing you myself right now if not for the fact I'm totes saintly, but consider yourself warned for the future"? Or was she actually just expressing "I want vengeance" and totally ignorant of the actual meaning?

I was once trapped in a conversation with a really boring colleague and he was aware that I was a widow, and he said his dad had died the year before so "I know you get me" and looking at me really intensely, like he was about to ask me out. So I shut him down by saying "Well, we knoweth not the day nor the hour, as it says in the Bible, eh? So feck off and leave me alone " I thought it meant "We never know when we're going to die." I double checked that night and actually it's about Jesus being born

I think she totally misinterpreted the verse, to her it's all about vengenace when actually it's more about forgiveness as only God can take venegance, or at least I understand it.
I'll bet she knew the phrase "vengenacne is mine" but not the whole passage.

Ok, have been called, profuse apologies from the counsellor and booked in for next Friday morning.

Pocket, I hate going into this as I always feel anxious of being judged. I developed severe CFS/ME almost exactly five years ago. My GP is utterly convinced its severity is due to the issues my mother has inflicted on my mental and emotional wellbeing (was her that strong-armed encouraged me to seek therapy). It manifests in the form of excruciating pain in every bodily joint (just gone on to morphine...) and fatigue so severe I'm almost permanently bed-bound. So not working, but I'm attempting to force myself through an OU degree starting this year...

seriousstevewhat a disappointment. But it will still happen in the end, relief.
toomuch I feel the greatest evil is justified by using the Bible and the Coram. It is so open to interpretations that anybody can justify anything with it. Particularly the thick ones that don't get it! Makes you wonder why human beings had to invent religions. To me something completely different than believing in God. I have 0 time for bigots. Ranting, ranting...

Hi everyone.. so after 3 weeks of NC with DM and most of my family, I've had a lot of emotional ups and downs but overall have been feeling a sense of relief, at not feeling I have to make the effort to talk to them. If you will recall, on Christmas Day DM and her husband started Xmas Dinner without me which just kind of felt like the final straw, and then DM send a text telling me I had ruined everyone's day by walking straight back out, and threatened not to give DD her birthday money..

Anyway, as I say have had ups and downs but overall have lost half a stone in weight just about, and had a first appointment with MH assessors who think I need to be assessed for aspergers, and have begun to have a clear out - I just feel like I want to purge certain things from my life in general.

However, last night DM got in touch again, this time a message on FB (where I have allocated her and other family a status that means she can't see my page beyond the basics, but can't claim I've removed her as a friend and thus 'show' people I'm being a mean nasty daughter).

The message on FB says "Life is too short to keep falling out, please come and see us or tell me/us when we can come and see you xx". Which to anyone else probably sounds like she has everyone's best interests at heart, right? And before I would have fallen for this. But at the same time, there is no hint of an apology, or responsibility, or anything.. and it seems to me that it is being sent in this way because now if I don't reply, she can show it to people and say 'look I tried to sort things out and she is ignoring me'? When, in fact, I doubt that any conversation with DM would involve a heartfelt apology.

I'm inclined to not reply. I'm inclined to only re-start any dialogue with her once I've seen a therapist, feel ok or better in myself, and only if she agrees to go through therapy with me after that so I'm not just handling it on my own. I don't see what I have to lose at this point.

pocket, good - as far as I could tell she meant either "god will f*ck them up for me" or "vengeance: if it's good enough for God, it's good enough for me." Either way, yes, a total misunderstanding of the meaning (I take it to mean that the best revenge is a life well lived/two wrongs don't make a right).

pocket you could have gone a bit darker with your colleague and said "ask not for whom the bell tolls" - nothing like a reminder of our own mortality to cool one's ardour, eh?
That's as far as I can take it with famous quotes though, unless anyone wants some wisdom from Wreck it Ralph or Frozen, both of which I can quote by heart. I can even do half of Frozen in German!

Steve FWIW absolutely no judgement here. You're very ill. You should be off work - you need to heal. Rather than judge you for not working I'm angry on your behalf that your mother inflicted the abuse on you that has caused/worsened your condition and caused you not to be able to work and get all the things from work that you deserve, money, good colleagues, stats in society etc.

(Youse can all feel free to judge me as I am currently a genuine lady of leisure - I had to give up my job after my DH got made redundant and found a new job abroad. My kids are now in kindergarten so I'm free for about 5 hours a day. I was supposed to be doing a masters starting in Feb but we were unable to find a suitable childminder for the afternoons so I'm reapplying for next year. I alternate between being a bit "where is my life going/I am a lazy sod" and enjoying playing xbox. Depends on the day.)

So glad to hear things are on the up for you eternal!

I think your plan not to respond to that message is a smart one. Chances are she'll be nice right up till the point where you respond again. I've seen it called "come closer so I can hurt you again".

Steve that's sounds awful, my sympathies. I have suffered with chronic pain for many years (relating to nerve damage in my spine) and I know how horribly debilitating it is. Thankfully it is now under good control with medication and exercise but ALWAYS when I am stressed or low, it flares up.

I think you might really benefit from reading Alice Miller's The Body Never Lies.

Eternal I think your instinct not to reply is good.

The lack of apology is striking. It basically says "Stop asking to be treated like a human being and get back in your box."

Eternal... Seeing as she's dragged up the trite "life's too short" quip, and the utterly unforgivable "to keep falling out" nonsense

I suggest you find a nice meme to post fab, available to all, of what that nice Mr Einstein said what the definition of madness was...

Keep falling out is her view, repeatedly being a total bitch to you, and horrendous to your family is yours.

You are of course supposed to stfu and go back for more.

Fuck her. Just delete her. If she has an apology to make, she can make it to your face.

Bloody technology has a lot to answer for when it comes to shit family, it's such an easy call to drag someone back in without having the balls to look them in the eye and be accountable.

Also..

Does it genuinely matter what she think she or says about you?

The people who matter know the truth

I agree too eternal, there's nothing about taking responsibility or apologising in her message. I'm so thankful my mother has no clue about technology, she can just about text from her phone. Would be inclined to ignore.

Sorry for your chronic pain pocket, for you. It's sooo debilitating.

Oh I'm judging you too much.....Xbox indeed! Get a PS4 instead!

Am going to try to relax over the weekend. On the positive front we've decided to (try) to save for my DW to have her sterilisation reversed, £5,000 cost, £4,800 to go! Also have a lawyer having a look over everything as there were some ethics called into question by performing the procedure when she was really young...

I actually have a PS4 as well. {Hangs head in shame} I got it last year and then got on chance to use it. Just looked on the PS4 store yesterday and I've seen that they have pretty much every Final Fantasy ga!e ever, ported over. Bye bye Jan/Feb... there goes my productivity, I am actually trying to write a book as well these days. Erk, you guys are the only people I've told this other than DH.

So you're hoping to start a family? That is awesome - very best of luck.

Am lucky enough to have a DD and a DSS. Stepson all grown and flown the best, daughter of 16. It's as though any decision we would have in the future regarding conceiving was tainted 15 years ago when my DW was sterilised against lots of guidelines.

We've toyed around the idea for a couple of years and we both have room in our hearts and souls for another child, if we can raise the money for the reversal, and the stars aligning.**
**
My partner has had a torrid life, abuse, neglect, care, toxic family she is NC with. She deserves this piece of joy she so desperately wants.

Pocket - have bought the book from iBooks - shall read over the weekend :)

I posted on here a while back and am looking for a little more advice. My df wants me to take my dd and visit him at Easter. Trouble is I get panic attacks when around either of my parents for more than a few hours. (They are divorced) my df is getting on and lives a long way away. I do take dd and see him once a year. He wants more of his grandchild, but they make me ill. I have no idea how to deal with this.

Geranium you have plans already... Sorry, maybe next time, you'll be in touch.

That's more or less what I replied, Hissy. I feel terribly guilty about only seeing df annually, but I also need to protect my mental health. He will probably ring and object.

Eternal re 'Life's too short...' I've had this one before. And yes life is too short, it's too bloody short to spend any of it being abused by abusive fuckwits! Life's too short to waste it on people who make you unhappy. It's too short to be superficial 'friends' with someone on FB who you just can't actually stand. Stuff these manipulative, toxic, self-centred, dangerous, nasty pieces of work, stuff the lot of them!