"But we took you to Stately Homes!" Survivors of Dysfunctional Families

[OnceAMeerNotAlwaysAMeer]

It's November '15, and the Stately Home is still open to visitors.

Forerunning threads:
December 2007
March 2008
August 2008
February 2009
May 2009
January 2010
April 2010
August 2010
March 2011
November 2011
January 2012
November 2012
January 2013
March 2013
August 2013
December 2013
February 2014
April 2014
July 2014
Oct 14 – Dec 14
Dec 14 – March 15
March - Nov 2015

Welcome to the Stately Homes Thread.

This is a long running thread which was originally started up by 'pages' see original thread here (December 2007)

So this thread originates from that thread and has become a safe haven for Adult children of abusive families.

One thing you will never hear on this thread is that your abuse or experience was not that bad. You will never have your feelings minimised the way they were when you were a child, or now that you are an adult. To coin the phrase of a much respected past poster Ally90;

'Nobody can judge how sad your childhood made you, even if you wrote a novel on it, only you know that. I can well imagine any of us saying some of the seemingly trivial things our parents/ siblings did to us to many of our real life acquaintances and them not understanding why we were upset/ angry/ hurt etc. And that is why this thread is here. It's a safe place to vent our true feelings, validate our childhood/ lifetime experiences of being hurt/ angry etc by our parents behaviour and to get support for dealing with family in the here and now.'

Most new posters generally start off their posts by saying; but it wasn't that bad for me or my experience wasn't as awful as x,y or z's.

Some on here have been emotionally abused and/ or physically abused. Some are not sure what category (there doesn't have to be any) they fall into.

NONE of that matters. What matters is how 'YOU' felt growing up, how 'YOU' feel now and a chance to talk about how and why those childhood experiences and/ or current parental contact, has left you feeling damaged, falling apart from the inside out and stumbling around trying to find your sense of self-worth.

You might also find the following links and information useful, if you have come this far and are still not sure whether you belong here or not.

'Toxic Parents' by Susan Forward.

I started with this book and found it really useful.

Here are some excerpts:

"Once you get going, most toxic parents will counterattack. After all, if they had the capacity to listen, to hear, to be reasonable, to respect your feelings, and to promote your independence, they wouldn't be toxic parents. They will probably perceive your words as treacherous personal assaults. They will tend to fall back on the same tactics and defences that they have always used, only more so.

Remember, the important thing is not their reaction but your response. If you can stand fast in the face of your parents' fury, accusations, threats and guilt-peddling, you will experience your finest hour.

Here are some typical parental reactions to confrontation:

"It never happened". Parents who have used denial to avoid their own feelings of inadequacy or anxiety, will undoubtedly use it during confrontation, to promote their version of reality. They'll insist that your allegations never happened, or that you're exaggerating. They won't remember, or they will accuse you of lying.

YOUR RESPONSE: Just because you don't remember, doesn't mean it didn't happen".

"It was your fault." Toxic parents are almost never willing to accept responsibility for their destructive behaviour. Instead, they will blame you. They will say that you were bad, or that you were difficult. They will claim that they did the best that they could but that you always created problems for them. They will say that you drove them crazy. They will offer as proof, the fact that everybody in the family knew what a problem you were. They will offer up a laundry list of your alleged offences against them.

YOUR RESPONSE: "You can keep trying to make this my fault, but I'm not going to accept the responsibility for what you did to me, when I was a child".

"I said I was sorry what more do you want?" Some parents may acknowledge a few of the things that you say but be unwilling to do anything about it.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate your apology, but that is just a beginning. If you're truly sorry, you'll work through this with me, to make a better relationship."

"We did the best we could." Some parents will remind you of how tough they had it while you were growing up and how hard they struggled. They will say such things as "You'll never understand what I was going through," or "I did the best I could". This particular style of response will often stir up a lot of sympathy and compassion for your parents. This is understandable, but it makes it difficult for you to remain focused on what you need to say in your confrontation. The temptation is for you once again to put their needs ahead of your own. It is important that you be able to acknowledge their difficulties, without invalidating your own.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I understand that you had a hard time, and I'm sure that you didn't hurt me on purpose, but I need you to understand that the way you dealt with your problems really did hurt me"

"Look what we did for you." Many parents will attempt to counter your assertions by recalling the wonderful times you had as a child and the loving moments you and they shared. By focusing on the good things, they can avoid looking at the darker side of their behaviour. Parents will typically remind you of gifts they gave you, places they took you, sacrifices they made for you, and thoughtful things they did. They will say things like, "this is the thanks we get" or "nothing was ever enough for you."

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate those things very much, but they didn't make up for ...."

"How can you do this to me?" Some parents act like martyrs. They'll collapse into tears, wring their hands, and express shock and disbelief at your "cruelty". They will act as if your confrontation has victimized them. They will accuse you of hurting them, or disappointing them. They will complain that they don't need this, they have enough problems. They will tell you that they are not strong enough or healthy enough to take this, that the heartache will kill them. Some of their sadness will, of course, be genuine. It is sad for parents to face their own shortcomings, to realise that they have caused their children significant pain. But their sadness can also be manipulative and controlling. It is their way of using guilt to try to make you back down from the confrontation.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I'm sorry you're upset. I'm sorry you're hurt. But I'm not willing to give up on this. I've been hurting for a long time, too."

Helpful Websites

Alice Miller

Personality Disorders definition

More helpful links:

Daughters of narcissistic mothers
Out of the FOG
You carry the cure in your own heart
Help for adult children of child abuse
Pete Walker

Some books:

Homecoming
Will I ever be good enough?
If you had controlling parents
When you and your mother can't be friends
Children of the self-absorbed
Recovery of your inner child

This final quote is from smithfield posting as therealsmithfield:

"I'm sure the other posters will be along shortly to add anything they feel I have left out. I personally don't claim to be sorted but I will say my head has become a helluva lot straighter since I started posting here. You will receive a lot of wisdom but above all else the insights and advice given will 'always' be delivered with warmth and support."

Thanks, Attila. That confirms our initial reaction, that we really shouldn't put ourselves in the firing line again. And yes, on the phone the GF wasn't interested in DH's points of view. He said that GF was only hearing FIL's side of the story and that FIL couldn't be trusted to tell the truth. But the GF basically said the DBs' reasons for this "fall-out" were irrelevant and they should return to the fold and be good boys again. FFS they're all adult men.

We think the GM, who died before I met DH, was the narc in their family, and FIL was GC and his brother was the scapegoat. The grandfather was at best the enabler, at worst complicit in the abuse. DH remembers being hit around the head by GF as a teenager because he hadn't done what he was told. DH told me this last night quite matter-of-factly, despite my obvious shock, because he thought it was so normal.

In terms of my own family, I know my grandmother can be evil, for want of a better word, but she has never done anything to me. I think this must be because I am her golden grandchild, first DC of her GC (my mum). I've only just realised this, and I feel awful. Reading everything that other people have put here has really opened my eyes.

When my DM walked out on my DF having had an affair 25 years ago, my GM basically waged war on him from afar, slagging him off to us at every opportunity. My DM joined in, although usually more subtly. Apart from during my teenage years when I had my own issues, my relationship with my DF hasn't ever suffered, thank goodness, and he has never responded in kind about DM's side of the family.

With our new step-family, my mum definitely scapegoated my step-B and -Sis. I always knew she was horrible to them, and I never did anything. I just watched. I was persuaded that I really was better than them, so they didn't matter. It makes me want to curl up and die, the way they must have felt. Ten years ago, my DM walked out on my stepdad, having had an affair with a new man. Unsurprisingly, our step-family went NC with us.

My relationship and my sister's with DM declined rapidly after that. It took years to return to civility. I was blamed for the breakdown of DM's marriage and of stepdad's #2 with his previous wife, as I had discovered the affair and had threatened to tell everyone if she didn't. I was at uni at that point, my sister went soon after, and we both moved far from home after graduation. They also had to leave because of small-town talk, so we are all scattered across Europe now. It makes things easier in one way - no one has to see anyone all that often. But of course, when we do all get together, it's for longer periods of time, and everyone is all under one roof (hello Christmas), so the opportunity for difficulty is rife.

Actually, it's only really, really bad now if DM and DGM are together. I know my uncle finds that nearly impossible. He and his family live close to my GPs, so they end up doing all the caring that comes with older people. I don't know how they put up with the horrible comments and the ungrateful attitude, but they do. My DM, who lives 12 hours away and rarely visits, can do no wrong and is seen as perfect, despite obvious problems (entitled, selfish, engulfing, rules-don't-apply-to-me attitude).

But I think my biggest issue with all of this is how it has affected me and thus my parenting. I don't want to pass it on. I don't want to be like any of them, and DH doesn't want to be like his dad, and we just have to somehow work through it so that we are better people for our DC. I don't really know where the boundaries are a lot of the time - sometimes I feel I give all of myself to other people in trying to help them, and get overwhelmed with emotions until I can't cope anymore. Then I pull back and try to "put me first", and I feel like I'm being selfish and entitled and neglectful. This applies to everything - friendships, parenthood, family, husband. I don't know how to be normal, or how to trust my instincts. I was always told my thoughts/opinions were wrong, and that I should be/think/do like DM.

It's another essay. Sorry.

It is so therapeutic to read all your stories.
I helps me work on my own issues.
MilchandCookies have you read 'Toxic Parents'?
You are reflecting on your parenting hard to know, so I am sure things will improve. I find it hard to create positive boundaries when I never had any myself.
At the moment I am pondering about writing an email to DM to explain how she has broken my boundaries by calling (not to her face) DD a whore because she had her hair down and wild on one picture. I remember comment on the length of my skirt and my own hair. I hate my hair now. I cannot put up with her destroying my daughter's body image. I am aware that I made comment once or twice to DD regarding the way she was dress and I realised that is wrong. Thank God I would not dream of using these kinds of words which are at no time educational.
I haven't yet written the email to DM and I am not sure I want to respond favourably to her invite for Easter.
DP is not invited. She refuses to meet her.
Alternative is to send the Dcs on their own. But she does not like DD2.

mum2mum99

Write the e-mail but DO NOT send it. It will not be well received by someone like your mother who will likely use your words to further tear you to shreds.

I would not subject yourself let alone your children to one second in her so called company. She will do similar damage to them as she has done to you, there is already clear evidence that she has no verbal filter. If she can call your child a whore this is clearly not someone that anyone let alone your children should be spending any amount of time with.

Do make alternative plans for Easter and do not feel at all guilty for doing so.

I know that DGM hated DM. Dm reacted by trying to please DGM by doing chores around the house. DGM educational methods including getting DM to walk around the village with a cardboard board depicting how much of a naughty girl she had been and shaming her.

DM Has never been able to be affectionate with us. She is more now after some therapy but she can't help herself sometimes saying horrible words. I have addressed it last time it happened and received an apology. DF who heard at the time just said quietly: 'that's not very nice'. If someone had said that to my children I would have defended them.
Df has got a violent temper (breaking things) which was damaging too.
I want to explain to DM what I am not putting up with.

I did send it .
You will most probably be right Attila.
But I have this need to practise boundary setting and see what happens...
Will keep you posted.

Mum are you mentally prepared (as much as you can be) for any response to your email? What do you think the response might be?

Does she refuse to meet your DP because she doesn't approve of same sex relationship, or has she been a twat to your past partners as well?

milch
I know my grandmother can be evil, for want of a better word, but she has never done anything to me. I think this must be because I am her golden grandchild, first DC of her GC (my mum)

This really resonates with me as it's very similar to my own situation - except that my mum wasn't the GC, she was the SG - but was the first to have a child (me) so she kind of got temporarily promoted if that makes sense? My uncle was the GC but he was much younger, he was only 15 when I was born.

I was absolutely loved and cherished and spoiled as the first GC. I had a very strong bond with my GPs, I spent my first few months living with them as my mum had PND and didn't bond with me. I spent a lot of time there. As an adult it's been so disturbing to realise the dynamics going on behind the scenes and it's shattered my vision of my much loved GPs. My GD was a violent, drunken bully to both my GM and their DCs, and my GM was a weak enabler. Although of course at the time (late 1940s) there was very little support for women in DV relationships and beating children was considered normal

I got to hear about all this when my GD died; my mum just basically spent about 3 months after he died telling me and my sister what a shit he was and how GM was "finally free" and how angry my mum had been at him for the past 30 odd years and finally he was dead and she could tell everyone he was a twat. I was 16 and my sis was 13 I accept she needed to talk about these things, but her teen daughters were in no way an acceptable outlet. It was so confusing - I had loved my GD dearly but my mum was telling me he was a wife-beating alcoholic, so now I felt guilty for grieving. The funeral was fun

I cannot reconcile this image in my head - my loving, happy, teasing GD and my funny, warm GM who made me feel so safe, with the picture of my GD drunkenly waving a knife and threatening to kill my GM (my mum told me this was her earliest childhood memory.) It makes me feel guilty for loving them and missing them (my GM passed 8 years ago and I still miss her a lot.)

I don't know why Pocket but when I divorced EA exH I refused to believe that he would not compromise or try to be amicable. I had to learn the hard way.
I am not sure I understand all the dynamics between me and DM and this is my attempt to validate my feelings. Yes it might hurt.
DM doesn't approve of same sex relationship, and yes she been a twat to my past partners. Although it was EA, 'one should not divorce' and I am the bad guy for wanting out of my crappy marriage.

Pocket would you say your relationship with your DGP was toxic to you?
I was one of DGM's favourite and I also feel love and guilt interwoven for her. (she was very warm and loving to me but an asshole with DM and I also inherited the baggage that her coldness gave to DM)

Pocket would you say your relationship with your DGP was toxic to you?

That's such a difficult question to answer. I honestly don't know. By the time I was born, my GD had stopped drinking for several years and I never remember seeing him lose his temper.

Certainly both of them accepted traditional roles for men and women and my GM ran around after him like he was the king and everything had to be to his liking. I didn't question this as my mum did the same for my dad and most of my friends had a similar setup at home. It was not unusual at the time (1970s.)

What I do remember is feeling loved and safe when I was with them. Something that I didn't feel at home with my parents.

As I got older we only saw them once a week as my parents moved further away. When I was older and learned to drive I saw my GM more often but by then my GD had passed.

Gosh, human relationships are so complex. They gave you love and that is most important, above all.
But they might also be one of the reason that your relationship with your mum was not so great.

I am late to this discussion but I have read some of the thread and it's so helpful to read others experiences. I am torn to bits by my sisters behaviour. I do feel she has traits of some sort. She has sent me a series of abusive texts recently, really vitriolic and extremely cruel. I have tried to find out what is wrong but she refuses to speak with me and any attempt to build bridges to acknowledge she sounds upset are met with a torrent of abuse. There are lots of other things which have torn us apart as a family. I feel very upset and I feel I have lost my sister. I can only describe a real emotional pain and a sense of frustration and hurt about the damage she has caused recently. Does anyone have any advice about how to cope with the emotional pain?

can you put a distance between you two mustrest?

Morning fellow stately homes visitors. Hope your New Year has begun ok or even well. I'm looking for a bit of advice please. My parents have narcissistic personality disorders, mother being the dominant figure. My brother is also very narcissistic towards me, has been 40 years. I experienced the predictable narcissistic/emotional abuse and also sexual abuse in the family. No one in the broader family has any idea and sun shines out of their wotsits whereas I am the unstable spoilt mentally ill headcase. I've had therapy and come through severe depression, bullying at work, marriage problems, 3 young kids, still have major anxiety... I'm diagnosed bi-polar but it's pretty ok as on meds. Anyways point is I'm at the point where I've totally reduced contact with all 3 of nuclear family, accepted that means losing rest of extended family too. Dad has cancer, decent prognosis, but I can't cope with close contact. I want to move on, move forward and move away from all the turmoil and dysfunction and headf*ery. What are your top tips? I still feel grief at everything I went through but a lot more at peace now. How do you get over that final hurdle and really put it behind you? One issue I have is that some of what I went through was so vile that I've only told a psychiatrist and a therapist. Feel it would be easier if I could talk about it but can't. All advice welcome! Thanks and have a good day.

Hi Pumpkins firstly and most obviously, you can talk about it, here. There's nothing you could share here that would shock or surprise there Stately Homers about your family.
Also, I think grief is natural process and won't be rushed, but it will change over time as you already know. The trouble with the grieving process for those who have separated from their family because of abuse is that the narrative they have to look back on, -at the stage normal grieving would move more to the " happy memories " phase- is we don't have that. The unhappy memories dominate our past lives. Other people's narratives overwrote our own. "He did this vile thing, .. She did that awful thing.."
I have spent some time mooching around this roadblock myself.
I am finding it very cathartic to write my own story, from my own point of view, where I get to be the awesome survivor that most of us here are (I wrote about this on another thread)
So it becomes " I overcame this ". Rather than" they did this to me "
Taking back my power, and my history.
It's not going to win any prizes, but it's helping me, right now.

the narrative they have to look back on, -at the stage normal grieving would move more to the " happy memories " phase- is we don't have that. Or we do, but then the guilt cycle starts again with the doubts about if you overreacted, maybe you shouldn't have cut them off...which then leads back into remembering all the bad stuff and why you DID cut contact, which then makes you feel shit again.
Sigh.

You are so right Good .
Trying to completely believe that you have done the right thing - when you have spent a lifetime trained to, and trying to, please others, to validate their decisions and doubt your own - and you have turned against that, and social conventions and constant pressure to return to "your place". It is so hard and a seemingly endless process.
I remember standing on the precipice of NC and thinking, "This is going to hurt, not immediately, but for a long time this is going to be bad, and can I live with myself as a person who is capable of this - as well as the casual thoughtless judgement of others?"

and there is no roadmap
All of the books take you to the point of identifying the problems / abusive dynamics in others - then basicly say go NC and then "Get therapy."

and you need to be better - right now ! - not on an NHS waiting list - because they’re coming right back at you - and they've got weapons.

When people say NC is a lazy - whiny -easy choice....ahhhh...Sigh indeed.

Hello mustrest

It sounds like you are in a very painful situation. Has your sister got a history of cutting you off and then re-establishing contact as if nothing has happened? Or is this a new thing?

Hello Pumpkins

I'm glad to hear you have received support from a psych and therapist.

What do you feel are the barriers to moving on? Does contact with your family make you feel generally worse? Do you have symptoms of PTSD - body memories and flashbacks to the abuse?

mustrest sometimes you have to go through the grieving process. It's tough. Maybe you have a bit of control: Deciding whether you are going to let your sis do this to you again and again...
3littlepumpkins I am currently reading 'Beyond co-dependency' by Melodie Beattie. It is the follow up from 'Co-dependent no more'.
665TheNeighbourOfTheBeast this book goes beyond identifying symptoms of dysfunction. I find it quite useful to deal with the post dysfunctional relationship side of things and start rebuilding a healthier life. I am starting to get a sense of my own power, boundaries...
As far as NC is concerned, I can't manage it yet. I understand why my parents acts the way they do and I find them quite vulnerable.

665 I'm looking into IFS as a way of getting to the unhealthy beliefs and behaviours I learned through abuse. It's sort of halfway between CBT and "proper" psychotherapy where they go into your history big time. It sounds though like you need something more akin to grief counselling at the moment. Are you in a position to go private?

Unrelated to that, just a note to myself this really -
I think I need to do a deeper history taking as there are things that cause me problems that I don't even consciously realise are problems, e.g. it's only looking back at my relationship with my last (narcissistic) boss that I realised I always doubt my own memory, and that that is probably due to gaslighting by my mother. The memory "problem" (not actually a shit memory, I almost always remember correctly, but I have no confidence in whether the memory is real) wasn't even something I perceived as a fixable problem.

A few things have happened this week which I would usually contact my mum about. Normally if any one says anything nice about me, gives me good feedback at work etc then im straight on the phone to her. Discussed this when I went to my counselling session and think it's to do with seeking approval, hoping desperately she might agree with them or change her opinion of me.

I haven't contacted her at all for two weeks. For me, this is completely out of the norm. At times I find it hard and feel guilty, I miss her when she is having a 'good day' and start to wonder if it's worth it. But then I remember the bad days and how much they upset me. In some ways it's like coming of a drug - there is the temptation of the quick hit, telling her something has gone well for the approval from her I crave for a short period, but I know this will be followed by the come down, when she's awful to me and I am so disappointed. The pain of withdrawal is easier and healthier in the long run.

eternal, I was thinking about Aspergers. That website you linked to - I have a lot of the characteristics they list too, but a lot of it (a bit odd, liking my own company etc) I think could be as much a result of the abuse causing confidence problems and also the fact that we tend a lot of us to escape into books etc... and this might be a crude reading of Aspergers but as I understand it one of the big things is a difficulty in learning to understand others' emotions and intentions based on their behaviour and expressions. I can imagine that neurotypical children might have similar problems if they are trying to learn this stuff off of emotionally abusive parents. I also saw this discussion about Aspergers and narcissistic parents and I thought you might find it interesting.

Stay strong between. Her approval is like a strong drug that is suppressing the hunger you have for the nourishment of real, caring concern and interest in you.

toomuchtooold thank you, yes you have articulated something that was in my mind but I hadn't quite found a way to express it to myself, this will also be useful as a question to ask the psychologist they are passing me too. I did those things - absorbed myself in books for the whole of my child/teen years, was immature for my age and socially incompetent (understatement) but was probably that because at home I wasn't raised/parented in the sense some people are? How can they tell the difference between nature and nurture and if it's a result of upbringing, ingrained since my earliest years, is that any more fixable than Aspergers? I want some hope that I can change, that I won't always be/feel like this. Haven't read the link yet but will do, thank you.

Still no word from DM or any family, it's odd because DM lives just down the road and I could so easily bump into her say in the supermarket. Not sure what I'll do if that happens.

I decided to focus on just one thing this month once I went NC, losing some weight and have lost 5lbs in one week through getting up every morning at 5.30 to work out and eating healthily. I feel like I need to be successful at something. I have about 2 stone to lose to get back to pre-baby weight. And this is complete b*llshit but I always have this sense that I store my unhappiness in fat.

Just started reading that link.

This:

"My Nparents still have no coping skills and even randomly scream. Yet if I was being emotional, it was disregarded and I wasn't suppose to get upset, ever."

"My Nparents still have no coping skills and even randomly scream. Yet if I was being emotional, it was disregarded and I wasn't suppose to get upset, ever."

"It's so strange how Nparents refuse to actually raise and teach us anything but expect us to be little adults from the time we're born. If we act like a normal child, it's wrong and needs to be punished. We're suppose to know everything and be able to care for ourselves. It's insane."