"But we took you to Stately Homes!" Survivors of Dysfunctional Families

[OnceAMeerNotAlwaysAMeer]

It's November '15, and the Stately Home is still open to visitors.

Forerunning threads:
December 2007
March 2008
August 2008
February 2009
May 2009
January 2010
April 2010
August 2010
March 2011
November 2011
January 2012
November 2012
January 2013
March 2013
August 2013
December 2013
February 2014
April 2014
July 2014
Oct 14 – Dec 14
Dec 14 – March 15
March - Nov 2015

Welcome to the Stately Homes Thread.

This is a long running thread which was originally started up by 'pages' see original thread here (December 2007)

So this thread originates from that thread and has become a safe haven for Adult children of abusive families.

One thing you will never hear on this thread is that your abuse or experience was not that bad. You will never have your feelings minimised the way they were when you were a child, or now that you are an adult. To coin the phrase of a much respected past poster Ally90;

'Nobody can judge how sad your childhood made you, even if you wrote a novel on it, only you know that. I can well imagine any of us saying some of the seemingly trivial things our parents/ siblings did to us to many of our real life acquaintances and them not understanding why we were upset/ angry/ hurt etc. And that is why this thread is here. It's a safe place to vent our true feelings, validate our childhood/ lifetime experiences of being hurt/ angry etc by our parents behaviour and to get support for dealing with family in the here and now.'

Most new posters generally start off their posts by saying; but it wasn't that bad for me or my experience wasn't as awful as x,y or z's.

Some on here have been emotionally abused and/ or physically abused. Some are not sure what category (there doesn't have to be any) they fall into.

NONE of that matters. What matters is how 'YOU' felt growing up, how 'YOU' feel now and a chance to talk about how and why those childhood experiences and/ or current parental contact, has left you feeling damaged, falling apart from the inside out and stumbling around trying to find your sense of self-worth.

You might also find the following links and information useful, if you have come this far and are still not sure whether you belong here or not.

'Toxic Parents' by Susan Forward.

I started with this book and found it really useful.

Here are some excerpts:

"Once you get going, most toxic parents will counterattack. After all, if they had the capacity to listen, to hear, to be reasonable, to respect your feelings, and to promote your independence, they wouldn't be toxic parents. They will probably perceive your words as treacherous personal assaults. They will tend to fall back on the same tactics and defences that they have always used, only more so.

Remember, the important thing is not their reaction but your response. If you can stand fast in the face of your parents' fury, accusations, threats and guilt-peddling, you will experience your finest hour.

Here are some typical parental reactions to confrontation:

"It never happened". Parents who have used denial to avoid their own feelings of inadequacy or anxiety, will undoubtedly use it during confrontation, to promote their version of reality. They'll insist that your allegations never happened, or that you're exaggerating. They won't remember, or they will accuse you of lying.

YOUR RESPONSE: Just because you don't remember, doesn't mean it didn't happen".

"It was your fault." Toxic parents are almost never willing to accept responsibility for their destructive behaviour. Instead, they will blame you. They will say that you were bad, or that you were difficult. They will claim that they did the best that they could but that you always created problems for them. They will say that you drove them crazy. They will offer as proof, the fact that everybody in the family knew what a problem you were. They will offer up a laundry list of your alleged offences against them.

YOUR RESPONSE: "You can keep trying to make this my fault, but I'm not going to accept the responsibility for what you did to me, when I was a child".

"I said I was sorry what more do you want?" Some parents may acknowledge a few of the things that you say but be unwilling to do anything about it.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate your apology, but that is just a beginning. If you're truly sorry, you'll work through this with me, to make a better relationship."

"We did the best we could." Some parents will remind you of how tough they had it while you were growing up and how hard they struggled. They will say such things as "You'll never understand what I was going through," or "I did the best I could". This particular style of response will often stir up a lot of sympathy and compassion for your parents. This is understandable, but it makes it difficult for you to remain focused on what you need to say in your confrontation. The temptation is for you once again to put their needs ahead of your own. It is important that you be able to acknowledge their difficulties, without invalidating your own.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I understand that you had a hard time, and I'm sure that you didn't hurt me on purpose, but I need you to understand that the way you dealt with your problems really did hurt me"

"Look what we did for you." Many parents will attempt to counter your assertions by recalling the wonderful times you had as a child and the loving moments you and they shared. By focusing on the good things, they can avoid looking at the darker side of their behaviour. Parents will typically remind you of gifts they gave you, places they took you, sacrifices they made for you, and thoughtful things they did. They will say things like, "this is the thanks we get" or "nothing was ever enough for you."

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate those things very much, but they didn't make up for ...."

"How can you do this to me?" Some parents act like martyrs. They'll collapse into tears, wring their hands, and express shock and disbelief at your "cruelty". They will act as if your confrontation has victimized them. They will accuse you of hurting them, or disappointing them. They will complain that they don't need this, they have enough problems. They will tell you that they are not strong enough or healthy enough to take this, that the heartache will kill them. Some of their sadness will, of course, be genuine. It is sad for parents to face their own shortcomings, to realise that they have caused their children significant pain. But their sadness can also be manipulative and controlling. It is their way of using guilt to try to make you back down from the confrontation.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I'm sorry you're upset. I'm sorry you're hurt. But I'm not willing to give up on this. I've been hurting for a long time, too."

Helpful Websites

Alice Miller

Personality Disorders definition

More helpful links:

Daughters of narcissistic mothers
Out of the FOG
You carry the cure in your own heart
Help for adult children of child abuse
Pete Walker

Some books:

Homecoming
Will I ever be good enough?
If you had controlling parents
When you and your mother can't be friends
Children of the self-absorbed
Recovery of your inner child

This final quote is from smithfield posting as therealsmithfield:

"I'm sure the other posters will be along shortly to add anything they feel I have left out. I personally don't claim to be sorted but I will say my head has become a helluva lot straighter since I started posting here. You will receive a lot of wisdom but above all else the insights and advice given will 'always' be delivered with warmth and support."

Oh yes to both. Re not being a child, I told my therapist about a time I'd been hit for playing in puddles with non-waterproof boots. I chose it as an example because the hitting was quite extreme but she was like "look, it's already abusive to be punishing you for acting like a child". I never thought about it. We're so used to inspecting our own actions as if we were adults, and adults who are disliked and tolerated with bad grace at that.

Also on the Aspergers thing - if it turns out that you do have Aspergers then you suffered the complexity of managing that on top of an emotionally abusive childhood, so props to you. You didn't cause your mother to be abusive by being non-neurotypical. And it wouldn't have caused all your problems either. It's just a matter of finding somewhere where you fit in, and learning to handle the outside world through gentle guidance from someone who has your best interests at heart. That should have been our parents, but now we are adults we can use the help of counsellors, friends, and our own efforts to do it.

I was wondering if I could join in. I posted about my family before but couldn't make the move with stopping contact yet.
So brief history is that my mother abandoned me as a very small baby. She was a very young mother and couldn't cope. She was abused as a child and the family just pretended it didn't happen.
I was sent to foster carers and my grandmother also took me in at times. I spent many years being passed around. My mother had other children and whenever I saw her at parties she made it clear I was not her child. She did block an adoption which i think would have changed my life.
So anyway I finally moved in permanently with my grandmother and her husband at 11. He abused me and she knew about it. When I finally fought back they took me to a therapist who told me to stop seducing my grandfather. They then forced me to move in with my mother as my gran couldnt cope with me having an affair (as she called it) with her husband. I was 13.
I then moved to england with my mother and step dad. My siblings also came along. My mother beat me and forced me to stay home from school to take my siblings to school. There was never food for us kids but always for mum. We ate out of bins and had a truly horrible time. My sister and brother were everything to me and I finally felt at home with them. I loved them so much.
My mother didnt like it over in england so left after just under a year.
She made dad and me take her to the airport and I thought I would be allowed to come too but at the airport she said she was only going to take her children.
Dad and me went back home and he got drunk (he is an alcoholic). I cleaned the house. Dad looked after me even though I wasn't his. He gave me my first home and loved me. When I was 16 he met a woman who was just 8 years older than me. I left home and never really went back. It wasn't my place as I wasn't really his child.
So I had children and my mother died. we made our peace before she went. My sister and brother moved to england as well. My sister especially needed a lot of help. She took money of me for a long time and I felt I had to give it. She also used to moan on facebook how no-one ever helped her.
Over all this time I still had contact with my gran. I loved her as she was a sort of mum but I hated her as she let her husband hurt me. She used to make me talk to her her husband. I think she liked making me talk to him.
So anyway last august I finally cut down the weekly phone calls. My sister put the pressure on and bullied me to talk to gran.
Lots of pressure basically and I got to the point where i was afraid to answer the phone. Just before Christmas I finally changed number so I will never have contact with her again. I finally told my sister why I couldn't have contact anymore and she said :" what happened is between you and gran. Nothing to do with me. Leave me alone."
We have not talked since and last night I finally cut the last way of contacting her as I can no longer think straight. There are times I dont feel I can go on. I feel so betrayed by my birth family. No one loved me and no one protected me.
I have my children and a wonderful partner now. They love me as I am. I just don't know how to cope with my other family being like this with me.
I'm sorry I know this is long and my english is sometimes still all over the place. It helps to just get it out

littlemissangrypants you have gone through some sh*. It is so sad that the ones who were supposed to support and protect you weren't there for you. You will be happier without them. Going NC does require some balls.
I am experimenting with boundaries with DM. All new to me, I never was able to set my own boundaries.
Attila and pocket I did send an email to DM explaining that it was not ok to refer to DD as 'whore' just because she had her hair a certain way. At first she tried to say she did not use this word. She said she was angry. I said it is never ok to speak like this about a 9 y.o girl. She said she would never say anything like this in front of her. She was very apologetic. We spoke about the image of women in the family (lots of issues of guilt and shame) which is a painful topic. She admitted that she uses bad words when she is angry and she should watch her language more. I agreed.
She thanked me for raising it and not letting any bad feelings linger between us. It is not a bad result but I am maintaining LC and I will definitely kick off if she is BU. Not sure if she is manipulating me ...

Good god littlemissangrypants that was hell on earth, not a childhood!

We ate out of bins :(

Please just focus on those who love you, your own family. They are worthy of your love and investment. You have every right on earth to be very bloody angry. Very, very bloody angry.

Could you look at getting some counselling? That would really help you, to have a safe place to speak. Just for you.

Your English is just fine btw :)

mum2mum that sounds very empowering, and I agree it's wise to maintain low contact

Thank you for listening. I don't know if I can do counselling but I think I probably need something. I really feel like I'm going crazy at times.
I struggle so much now because of the past. I hoard food and binge eat. Not many people can understand that kind of crazy. I just never want my kids to go hungry. I am a mess really but not sure how to fix it. I just hope I can find some peace in never having to talk to my other family again.
The pressure to keep contact was leaving me feeling really down. I was afraid to lose myself in having contact with them. The funny thing is that the last straw was my gran demanding I leave the kids over Christmas to go and see her and her husband as his birthday is just before Christmas. She has done this before. Expects me to dump my kids and put her first.
I guess I have to try and live without them. I am just so scared it's the wrong thing.

littlemiss It's not the wrong thing. My god, you have suffered at the hands of these people and they don't deserve all you've done for them. So glad you have your children and DP, you really deserve to be happy.

FWIW I've heard of the food hoarding thing before, I think it is quite common among adults who didn't have enough to eat as children. You're not crazy, you're very emotionally and mentally strong, as proven by the fact that you are here and functioning and caring for your own children too.

Hi everyone, it's beyond belief what some of you have had to put up with. Littlemissangrypants I think you've put things in place so you can begin to put that behind you. I'm so glad you have a loving chosen family.

I just came in to update on the family do over christmas. Haven't been able to get online until now. Brief update - pretty much everyone in my family has fallen out with someone. There has been a lot of obnoxious/hurtful behaviour directed towards me, my siblings & cousins from the generation above. This xmas party was the first time we've all been together since the shit hit the fan.

Personally I ended up on ADs (I'm not the only one) but time and distance has enabled a level of clarity in my thinking. I see now that I've always been the weird one, most probably a topic of conversation for years. Definitely the scapegoat. It helps in these family situations that I definitely have allies and we support each other. It was still bloody nerve wracking and I drank a lot of wine!

What I really can't understand is the ability of people to act like nothing's happened. Literally the last contact I had with someone there was 18 months ago. She was so cruel and had treated me badly for months that I finally unfriended her on facebook. No contact in that time. And yet at this party she smiled and acted like nothing ever happened, even brought gifts, the works. I think she's actually a bit mad. A puzzle.

Anyway, that's it over until next year, I hope. Bloody weirdos.

Thanks all.

I think one issue is they won't leave me alone - texts, emails, requests to visit (I am a source of narcissistic supply, especially sweet loving grandchildren proving adoration). Any of their frequent weird contact triggers intense feelings and memories/flashbacks. My mother neglected us, of course. I would let myself in after school age 7 and just eat biscuits and when she cooked later often left it as full from biscuits. Began periods and puberty 8 1/2. Diet to blame? Didn't know what periods were. All she ever said on the topic was "of all the days to start". Showed me the sanitary towels cupboard .Then I was told "you can talk to Dad about it as he knows all about it" I was on my own with managing periods and towels into school etc, being physically different with body hair at 8 and never had another conversation with her about any of it. Except a trip to the doctors "my daughter is sweating and has hair under her arms". She couldn't say "and pubic hair". I turned to my older brother and confided in him. He was obviously and still is totally messed up by them - and he sexually abused me, went on a short while. Super family! I am the only one who isn't very narcissistic. Extended family think or used to think I'm a headcase. Overheard an aunt saying they didn't want their daughter "turning out like X". Another Aunt is very rude to me. Of course I have endless stories like most stately homers as the narcissism isn't fleeting, it's constant.

My daughter is now 8. It's I guess bound to be a time full of memories. The joy is sitting next to her with a book talking about periods, bodies, birds and bees and how open and hilariously relaxed she is about it all.

I was brought up Christian. I forgave and forgave and re-trusted. I always loved my brother. Desperate I guess. But no more. I feel like a free bank account they all try to come to withdraw cash out of when they want.

My therapist has encouraged me to be kind but with boundaries but I don't think she actually gets that with a narc the abuse/dysfunction is constant and ongoing, I've told her now. She'll say "it's in the past". Before Xmas I saw my shrink instead and he gave me best advice I think "be tough". "If they bully, bully back".

They've just asked to come stay next month. I've told them we're not well and very busy (true!) and can't have guests. No point confronting. This is it now. I'm not taking any of it anymore.

Yes anxiety, depression, flashbacks, panic attacks, difficult feelings, anger.

I think I do just need to quietly drift away. No big drama, confrontation - just be "unwell". And give myself space away. I've been too kind/soft.

I love the idea of writing the story for your own purposes. Yes you're right there are good memories and positives which cause guilt but hardly enough to change the overall picture.

I've banged on so thanks for giving space to "talk".

3 to be frank, your counsellor sounds like a bit of an idiot. Can you change to someone else? You shouldn't need to "bully them back" - there are plenty of people in the world who will hang out with you and you can just enjoy each other's company and nobody needs to be getting shat on. Never mind the fact that for those of us trained up and conditioned from an early age to fear our parents' toxic controlling anger and withdrawal of love, getting into situations of conflict can bring on all sorts of negative feelins , flashbacks, the works - it is not simply a matter of toughening up and I'm very about any counsellor who would suggest it.

Sorry wanted to say more but I'm being asked questions about polar bears by a small angry person

3

I would also drop your counsellor as of now; this person clearly has no real idea of how narcissistic family structures operate at all and the wrong counsellor can do harm in their own right.

I would state be kind to yourself and allow yourself to be rid of them rather than toughening up and bullying them back (that was also appalling counsel); a non narcissistic person would also lose and badly so. You have also been trained to serve people like your mother and have spent your entire life being cowed by such dysfunctional people.

3
I don't think your therapist nor your psych understand your situation. Are you seeing them on the NHS?

toomuchtooold
Tell your small person that polar bears' fur isn't white, it's clear. It will blow their minds

littlemiss
What an appalling time you've had. I'm so sorry. I'm glad you have found the strength to go NC with this very sadistic piece of shit that calls herself a grandmother. Was it her husband who also abused your mother?

Are you in a position to seek therapy at this stage of your life? Many therapists will offer sliding scale fees if you are unwaged or on a low income.

My H went hungry a lot as a child (youngest of 12 kids) and he also food hoarded as an adult and would binge eat. Although he mainly had this under control by the time I met him, he could eat a packet of digestives in under 15 minutes. So I don't think it in an uncommon response at all. Having enough to eat is the very basis of physical survival; when you've experienced food shortage at such an impressionable age, it leaves a huge mark.

Thanks I'm going to stop seeing therapist and try to see an abuse specialist. I agree I'm not going to bully back (on principle) but toughening up was a good idea. It's very hard being NC as there are things I do miss but well got to leave the sticky web before I become a dead fly!

Don't you find one of the hardest things is people's total lack of understanding and the fact that no one around the family has much of a bloody clue? You don't and can't sit down and tell everyone your story but you'll say "oh I don't get on with my family" and then they tell you something really lightweight about their own mother. Or, from a friend, I got "at least your mother isn't malicious".... Narcs obviously hide their business so of course no one knows. Family having no idea at all. No one knows.

Planning to start that story writing and see what comes out of it.

Decades ago when I was at school, I would say to friends that I'd had a terrible evening with my parents. Always the same reply - "Oh, I sometimes argue with my parents too"

I gave up saying. It wasn't arguing. It was quiet, deliberate, nuclear warfare, not noisy, occasional incendiary devices

YY to people comparing it to ordinary experiences - IRL I am very careful who I tell about the NC as I find people assume that if you've been emotionally busedthat you're actually just rubbish at getting along with people an a drama queen to boot.

Interesting 3 about the "malicious" comment - spoke about this with my therapist last time - are people with MH issues who abuse, are they being malicious? She was trying to get me to see how my mother's behaviors are often automatic, part of the illness. Fine, but with NPD sorry but there is a lot of premeditation and they can control their behavior in front of strangers and people they can get on side so I think it's malicious, totally. It's also hard to get across how scary they can be when they are angry, to someone who didn't grow up with them and depend on them. My mother looks ridiculous when she acts out, she speaks through clenched teeth and puts this sort of roar into her voice, and these days I'm like ODFOD, Oscar season isn't till February but it's different when you're a kid and can't get away and are conditioned to fear. Few people can understand without experiencing it. You would have thought that therapists would try though!

One of us....

:)

www.independent.co.uk/news/weird-news/bride-cordially-invites-parents-to-suck-it-in-wedding-invitation-10053702.html

It's also hard to get across how scary they can be when they are angry, to someone who didn't grow up with them and depend on them yy totally agree with this. Now, as an adult and with the benefit of the FOG lifting I can see how ridiculous she is (although the idea of confrontation with her still makes me feel a bit ill). But as a child her anger was terrifying. Dbro said that, that he can conjure up an image of her "rage" face and that it's still frightening. Also, the fear of withdrawal of love and affection as that was (at least implicitly) always a threat if you displeased her. It's something I really try not to do with my own kids, even if I'm annoyed I try to explain that I'm annoyed but that I still love them.

My DM would rage too. I recall just sitting there whilst she would trample over my stuff whilst raging about something or other. I would just wait for it to be over and then just feel nothing really. I get cross with my DC and I do have a growl that sometimes leaps up but I hope I won't ever rage.

Ugh. I saw DM this afternoon and now keep playing our conversation back. What I guess would seem like a completely harmless chat to an outsider actually I think was very subtly laced with nastiness. I think. I dunno. DH thinks I should just expect it and then not get bothered by it. It's not that straight forward though is it.

That sounds dreadful. Very hard not to be bothered. it stirs up all the old memories and feelings, then the pain. I do some mindfulness which helps with my stuff, to take a step away. Also getting increasingly determined this silly moo is not going to run my life. Self compassion meditation is good I find as it helps you tune in to your own wellbeing and your own interests in a good way - which obviously for us lot were not exactly ever a family priority ! Kristen Neff I think is fab. Free meditations on her site.

We got shouted at lots and slapped but mostly totally ignored/neglected or treated like inadequates and a nuisance, an inconvenience. Ignored is the theme. She had a go at me recently (I went to stay briefly when Dad got cancer diagnosis). Within 5 mins we argued and I went to my room (felt just like a teenager). She tried the whole bullying "you are horrible" on me and of course I stood up to her. She backed down. Frankly I'm pretty certain it's only because she wants her grandchildren to come see her. I'm not much use to her otherwise! Probably better that way!

Read something can't remember where. Buy yourself something (ring, necklace,keyfob) to symbolise your emerging out of or triumph over the past. Think that's very positive. Have it with you all the time ...

3littlepumpkins I also feel a bit surplus to requirements now I've produced her some grandchildren to coo over. She pretty much ignores me if they are there, I always feel like a bit of a lemon.

I've looked into mindfulness and meditation and think it would help me actually. Thank you for the recommendation of that website, I'll look into it.

My mum never raged. My dad did plenty of raging, like every day, and the fear response was pretty high with me in particular.

But my mum used to go the other way and would jump straight into the emotional blackmail instead. Silent treatment, refusing to look at you, ignoring anything you said or making flat, closed statements in response. And making everything about her. If I was upset or anxious about something, her response would be "Why are you punishing me? What have I done that's so wrong?"

3", nearly* when I told my mother I was 4m pregnant with my girls she said "my life is complete". When we were still in contact she couldn't have made it mores obvious that she tolerated us in order to see DD1 (DD2 is what you might call spirited and forthright, also she looks like me, so no good to my mother) and when talking to them she constantly referred to herself in the third person as " mummy" and me as "gran". I shit you not. One time is a mistake, every time despite being corrected is bloody well not. I'm so glad to have my kids now away from her influence - I stayed in contact for a while after my dad died and then when the kids came along I felt like I should give her a chance and it was clear the whole time that she knew she had to be on her best behavior to see the kids, but the " best behavior " was thinly veiled contempt for us along with sickly sweet praise for DD1 and all this "who's the winner"/who did it right/wrong stuff with the kids. She's probably better off not seeing them now anyway, even DD1 (the most laid back and helpful of toddlers) is now full of opinons and boundary testing and stuff, my mother would probably just think that they are badly brought up (=not terrified to argue with us or do anything new in case it breaks an unwritten rule).

3little at your counsellor, clearly not competent for working with you.
nearly you and only you know how spiteful your mum's tongue is. Sounds like she is very skilled at distorting reality and covering up abuse.

Hi all,

It went all Q for a bit after the flying monkey episode. I have reported it to the authorities but now I have received another letter from DM asking me to reply and give the reason why I am NC with them. I thought that would have been obvious from the massive row we had where I basically was told to get on with it, looking after two DCs on my own without any help and the reason why I was no longer married was obviously my fault because I am a difficult person. What would you do, would you put it writing why you are not speaking to them or just tell them to stop contacting me? or just ignore and get an official letter sent to say stop the contact???

No, Don't reply. You are not their puppet. You don't need to dance when they pull the strings anymore.

I would continue with the legal route and stick to that only.

Thanks pocket,

I don't see why I have to explain myself to them. I am an adult not a child. Its oh woe is me, how can you be so hideous when we have done so much for you. Apparently they want to move on with their lives but are unable to do so without an explanation from me.