"But we took you to Stately Homes!" Survivors of Dysfunctional Families

[OnceAMeerNotAlwaysAMeer]

It's November '15, and the Stately Home is still open to visitors.

Forerunning threads:
December 2007
March 2008
August 2008
February 2009
May 2009
January 2010
April 2010
August 2010
March 2011
November 2011
January 2012
November 2012
January 2013
March 2013
August 2013
December 2013
February 2014
April 2014
July 2014
Oct 14 – Dec 14
Dec 14 – March 15
March - Nov 2015

Welcome to the Stately Homes Thread.

This is a long running thread which was originally started up by 'pages' see original thread here (December 2007)

So this thread originates from that thread and has become a safe haven for Adult children of abusive families.

One thing you will never hear on this thread is that your abuse or experience was not that bad. You will never have your feelings minimised the way they were when you were a child, or now that you are an adult. To coin the phrase of a much respected past poster Ally90;

'Nobody can judge how sad your childhood made you, even if you wrote a novel on it, only you know that. I can well imagine any of us saying some of the seemingly trivial things our parents/ siblings did to us to many of our real life acquaintances and them not understanding why we were upset/ angry/ hurt etc. And that is why this thread is here. It's a safe place to vent our true feelings, validate our childhood/ lifetime experiences of being hurt/ angry etc by our parents behaviour and to get support for dealing with family in the here and now.'

Most new posters generally start off their posts by saying; but it wasn't that bad for me or my experience wasn't as awful as x,y or z's.

Some on here have been emotionally abused and/ or physically abused. Some are not sure what category (there doesn't have to be any) they fall into.

NONE of that matters. What matters is how 'YOU' felt growing up, how 'YOU' feel now and a chance to talk about how and why those childhood experiences and/ or current parental contact, has left you feeling damaged, falling apart from the inside out and stumbling around trying to find your sense of self-worth.

You might also find the following links and information useful, if you have come this far and are still not sure whether you belong here or not.

'Toxic Parents' by Susan Forward.

I started with this book and found it really useful.

Here are some excerpts:

"Once you get going, most toxic parents will counterattack. After all, if they had the capacity to listen, to hear, to be reasonable, to respect your feelings, and to promote your independence, they wouldn't be toxic parents. They will probably perceive your words as treacherous personal assaults. They will tend to fall back on the same tactics and defences that they have always used, only more so.

Remember, the important thing is not their reaction but your response. If you can stand fast in the face of your parents' fury, accusations, threats and guilt-peddling, you will experience your finest hour.

Here are some typical parental reactions to confrontation:

"It never happened". Parents who have used denial to avoid their own feelings of inadequacy or anxiety, will undoubtedly use it during confrontation, to promote their version of reality. They'll insist that your allegations never happened, or that you're exaggerating. They won't remember, or they will accuse you of lying.

YOUR RESPONSE: Just because you don't remember, doesn't mean it didn't happen".

"It was your fault." Toxic parents are almost never willing to accept responsibility for their destructive behaviour. Instead, they will blame you. They will say that you were bad, or that you were difficult. They will claim that they did the best that they could but that you always created problems for them. They will say that you drove them crazy. They will offer as proof, the fact that everybody in the family knew what a problem you were. They will offer up a laundry list of your alleged offences against them.

YOUR RESPONSE: "You can keep trying to make this my fault, but I'm not going to accept the responsibility for what you did to me, when I was a child".

"I said I was sorry what more do you want?" Some parents may acknowledge a few of the things that you say but be unwilling to do anything about it.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate your apology, but that is just a beginning. If you're truly sorry, you'll work through this with me, to make a better relationship."

"We did the best we could." Some parents will remind you of how tough they had it while you were growing up and how hard they struggled. They will say such things as "You'll never understand what I was going through," or "I did the best I could". This particular style of response will often stir up a lot of sympathy and compassion for your parents. This is understandable, but it makes it difficult for you to remain focused on what you need to say in your confrontation. The temptation is for you once again to put their needs ahead of your own. It is important that you be able to acknowledge their difficulties, without invalidating your own.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I understand that you had a hard time, and I'm sure that you didn't hurt me on purpose, but I need you to understand that the way you dealt with your problems really did hurt me"

"Look what we did for you." Many parents will attempt to counter your assertions by recalling the wonderful times you had as a child and the loving moments you and they shared. By focusing on the good things, they can avoid looking at the darker side of their behaviour. Parents will typically remind you of gifts they gave you, places they took you, sacrifices they made for you, and thoughtful things they did. They will say things like, "this is the thanks we get" or "nothing was ever enough for you."

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate those things very much, but they didn't make up for ...."

"How can you do this to me?" Some parents act like martyrs. They'll collapse into tears, wring their hands, and express shock and disbelief at your "cruelty". They will act as if your confrontation has victimized them. They will accuse you of hurting them, or disappointing them. They will complain that they don't need this, they have enough problems. They will tell you that they are not strong enough or healthy enough to take this, that the heartache will kill them. Some of their sadness will, of course, be genuine. It is sad for parents to face their own shortcomings, to realise that they have caused their children significant pain. But their sadness can also be manipulative and controlling. It is their way of using guilt to try to make you back down from the confrontation.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I'm sorry you're upset. I'm sorry you're hurt. But I'm not willing to give up on this. I've been hurting for a long time, too."

Helpful Websites

Alice Miller

Personality Disorders definition

More helpful links:

Daughters of narcissistic mothers
Out of the FOG
You carry the cure in your own heart
Help for adult children of child abuse
Pete Walker

Some books:

Homecoming
Will I ever be good enough?
If you had controlling parents
When you and your mother can't be friends
Children of the self-absorbed
Recovery of your inner child

This final quote is from smithfield posting as therealsmithfield:

"I'm sure the other posters will be along shortly to add anything they feel I have left out. I personally don't claim to be sorted but I will say my head has become a helluva lot straighter since I started posting here. You will receive a lot of wisdom but above all else the insights and advice given will 'always' be delivered with warmth and support."

Hello,

I found this thread after posting about the Child Protection issues I have with my own children. The situation that I am going through now has forced me to reflect on my own childhood. I don't think there was 'abuse' going on, but certainly we were very socially isolated as children and my father (God rest his soul) had very low esteem and felt nothing he did or had was adequate. Unfortunately that included his wife and children. So we grew up with very low self esteem. My brother is almost certainly on the autistic spectrum and his teenage years were turbulent. I went through a lot of physical bullying and boundary crossing. My mother was depressed and our house was always damp, dirty and untidy. I was bullied about the clothes I wore (which were always dirty) and teachers used to give me clothes to take home. I ended up in a psychiatric hospital when i was 15 and was in and out until I was 28. My sister married very young (18) and she said it was to escape home. My brother stayed at home, where he still is (in his 50s) looking after my mum. I love my parents and my family, but I know I was brought up in a very questionable way. It really distresses me that my own children have not really fared much better.
Anyway, thanks for reading.

HarHer what you went through sounds very upsetting and certainly far from ideal. A revelation to me was that abuse can not only mean the addition of negative things (eg physical violence, hurtful words) but also the absence of the positive things needed to care for a child (affection, support, being emotionally present). It is so hard to accept that the people you love behaved in a way which wasn't so great.

In terms of your own children, I think most on here would agree that one of the most painful things is that our oarents have no acceptance that they have done anything wrong, and are never willing to reflect and try and make things better. Indeed many feel they are truly excellent parents. If you are reflecting on what has happened so far and trying to change thigs and put things right then that is a step in the right direction. Have you seen a counsellor?

Harher what you are describing in severe neglect which is definitely considered abuse.

Badders, isnt it sad that your mum seems to want you brothers approval when she knows she'll never get it and she sacrifices her relationship with you in order to keep trying. What was her relationship with her mum and dad like, do you know? I wonder if she always tried to get her dads approval and was ignored and now carries that through with her son. I've learned you cant make people care, much as it doesn't make any sense to you. Its easier to accept and to give up trying, but bloody hard to get there with this.

She was the youngest of 14. I'm not sure she knew either of her parents that well....
There was 21 years between her eldest sister and her,
She has nieces and nephews who are almost her age.
She left home at 18 and moved to England
My brother is the youngest and only boy
It's all very dysfunctional

Badders I think an aspect your mum and my MIL have in common is their lack of self care for their health. If your mum smoked that much it is clear she hasn't prioritized her health. My MIL has severe health problems due to total self-neglect. Even though she doesn't neglect herself in other ways such as spending money on herself and trying to make her children emotionally dependent

I don't know then badz, she's just not got her priorities right then, has she? she sounds like a child who always want whats she cant get...and almost enjoys being the martyr about it all.

I hope you manage to step back a bit, it must be hard when you live nearby.

Martyr is right, sounds like she loves playing the victim/martyr, especially for your benefit, badders.

taking it a bit further badz, do you think if your brother suddenly became wonderful and visited her often and phoned every day she'd be a teeny bit pissed off cos she could play the martyr anymore?

I honestly have no idea.
I will never understand her.
When I was younger and would complain about their treatment of me I was told "just wait till you have kids, then you will understand"
Well...I have been a mother for nearly 13 years and I don't. I just don't.
I will never show favouritism. I will never take money from them. I will never get them a poor paying, dead end job just to bring money in. I will never expect them to look after me.
My mum has smoked all her life til my dad died (also from smoking)
She quit then
She is coeliac but refuses to follow a gf diet so has constant stomach pains
What can you do?
I am the bad guy because I tell the Drs the truth. That's why she doesn't want me to go with her anymore.

I'm not getting involved anymore.
She is a grown woman.
My sister told me earlier that the dr gave her pain relief patches last Thursday -which she hadn't used yet!!!

My brother does phone everyday actually.
But only to moan/ask for money or complain about his wife.

Oh and she has copd too

Badders yes you really need to step back. It is hard but if you put 4 columns on a piece of paper with your name, your DHs name, your children and your mum and diagrams which category gets the most if your time and mental energy your mum should not dominant. Which column is getting most attention and what does your own column look like?

It very much sounds like your mum didn't get enough parenting and therefore created a situation where she can keep getting the parenting - she hasn't been able to parent herself. I would say focus on yourself and your family.

I haven't seen her or spoken/texted since the party on Saturday evening.
I just don't have anything to say. She is still annoyed at me for picking her up on her behaviour over the Dr appt. So she is not speaking to me.
Boys back at school tomorrow so she will be expecting a visit....
I won't go, but will feel guilty. Which is stupid.
My sister invited her down for lunch new years day and mum refused.
She has an open invite to my pils....never goes.
What can you do?

Am writing a post because I'm due to go and see a therapist for an initial consultation today.
It's been a long time coming. I've been sent to roughly 3 such people per year for the last 3 years, all of whom have batted me back to my GP saying they are 'not the right person'. On one occasion the same person saw me twice and just looked at me like I was crazy, asking 'why on earth have they sent you back to me? I wrote a letter saying I wasn't the right person to help you'. 3 of those times were while I was pregnant and alone and wanted someone to talk to about whether to continue the pregnancy.
I just want someone to talk to. I hope they can help and don't turn me away again. It takes 3 months every time to get to see the next one.

I've been NC with my DM since Xmas Day now (earlier post - about what happened on Christmas Day).
DM wrote a Facebook post on New Year's Eve saying how much she loved 'all' her grandchildren. No mention of her children. I blocked her from being able to see my account.
My DS who I was supposed to meet before everything on Christmas Day, seems to be playing with me. I asked (message) if our DC could meet to exchange Xmas presents and she just sent me a 'thumbs up' message in return, I asked nicely again if we could meet at a time convenient to her and she ignored me. I guess in psychology speech she would be the golden child, and is quite possibly toying with me knowing I am likely to obsess and get upset by it (to my mind she has quite a nasty streak and enjoys this sort of thing). Or maybe she wants to keep her family out of it - but without showing me the respect of communication that's not how it feels.

I've been trying not to put energy into this, but the NC in itself makes me feel bad, and very alone and upset.
I decided to try and look after myself by getting up every morning to do a workout. I've got up the last 4 days including New Years' Day at 5.30am to exercise on a treadmill I have at home, which has been unused for a long time - it's the only time of day I can really workout as am a LP and before I lose resolve. It's helping a bit, keeping my emotions steadier, but not completely. I've got quite a bit of weight to lose and frustrated at how bad I've let that get and how long it might take to improve myself but want to feel I have a better future.
I also made a 'plan' to improve my living environment, scheduling tasks like cleaning, clearing out junk and trying to keep to it so it doesn't all build up. Keeping to that too so far. I feel like I have to try harder.

Just saying these things on here because I can't in RL, thanks for listening x

eternal well done. You're being really courageous, it's very impressive. All I can say really is best of luck and just, you know, be kind to yourself and realise how much progress you are making. The NC can really sap you in the early days so don't be put off if there are steps back as well as steps forward. And best of luck with the counselling.

Eternal, let us know today how it goes with the counsellor. I think generally the problem with being referred on the NHS is that it really is about solving an immediate crisis rather than long-term health.

Lots of people joining and posting in the last few days, while I've been nursing a horrible cold which has left me like Pocket The Red-Nosed Reindeer

I guess this time of year makes many of us reflect on what we want to do differently in the next 12 months and that maybe it's time to start putting ourselves first.

Someone mentioned a few days ago about going NC after something that seems quite trivial. It was that way for me, too. In fact it was after Xmas last year. Went to visit my mum on boxing day with my DS (then 19yrs). We buzzed her intercom, she buzzed us through the door, we went up to her flat and she was already standing in the doorway looking for us. The first thing she said - literally the first thing - was "Put your hood down [DS], it's not raining indoors."

The first thing. I hadn't seen her in person for about 4 months, she hadn't seen DS for well over a year. No "Hello!" no "Happy Christmas!" no "Come on in!" Just "Put your hood down, it's not raining indoors." Not even a smile on her face or a laugh in her voice. It wasn't a joke. She deliberately looked for something to criticise, and went for it.

About 20 minutes later she decided to tell me that DS smelled bad.

I didn't fully decide on NC until February but those interactions were the final straw for me.

BTW she hadn't sent DS a birthday or Xmas card, let alone a present, since he turned 16.

She tells people she doesn't have any grandchildren.

Whilst DS is not mine by birth, I have been bringing him up since he was 5, full time. (His birth mum walked out when he was 3 and unfortunately is a fucking psycho whose sporadic contact does far more harm than good.) Every other member of the extended family accepts him as my son, but my own mum never has.

I actually found this (and still do) harder to accept than her neglect and emotional abuse of me as a child.

The really sad thing is that she has no idea what she's missing. My son was an amazing little boy who has brought so much joy to my life. He has challenges as an adult and yes sometimes he doesn't do his laundry often enough - hardly the crime of the century. Considering the shit he's been through with his birth mum abandoning him, his dad dying, his birth mum trying to claim him after that and then physically and emotionally abusing him to the point where SS got involved and thankfully ruled I could have him back with me - I count it as a victory that he managed to finish school with a handful of GCSEs, and that he hasn't fallen into crime or landed up in prison.

I found this Xmas so much less stressful this year, knowing that we didn't have to phone her, or do the duty visit, or brace ourselves for the criticisms that would be hurled our way.

I haven't told DS I've gone NC - he asked "Will we visit Nannan [she has always hated this name as well - asked him when he was 6 to call her by her first name! I told her that wasn't happening!] this Xmas" and I just said "No not this year". Funnily enough, he didn't seem bothered!

Thanks toomuch and pocket.

Well, this visit went better than those before, because 1) it was a conversation with questions, not a series of yes/no, no grey area questions and no room for actual explanation 2) they seemed to act on it - referred me for an appointment with a clinical psychologist and suggested longer-term psycho dynamics (which my GP had said wasn't available on the NHS) 3) gave me 2 further appointments, didn't just say they are not the right people to speak to and send me back to the GP. It will take a further 3 months before the next appointment and anything else happens, but it feels like a step forward. They (assessor then GP) asked lots of questions about my family background which the others didn't bother to do.

Maybe I should be posting this in the MH section, but the other thing that happened is I mentioned the GP had suggested I might be bipolar. These 2 said they don't think so, but suggested Aspergers. That's interesting because about a year ago I asked the GP whether they thought I might have Aspergers and they straight away said no, definitely not. As they are a GP I thought ok, they must be right.

I'm a bit worried about what this means for my future, if it is true because maybe I"m not 'fixable' and maybe all the things that happened with my family are actually my fault not theirs, and something is wrong with my brain not them. But I have to wait to find out.

They said I can't take DD into the next appointment (she was rolling round the floor throwing biscuits under the seats at this one) so I need to find childcare for anything further.

pocket you sound amazing, your DS is incredibly lucky to have someone in his life who has essentially protected and saved him. Your DM's loss. Glad you had a good Xmas.

Eternal that sounds really promising! It sounds like they were much more switched on than previous people you've seen.

It sounds like your GP was making a very snap judgement. A GP is not qualified, to my understanding, to diagnose either ASD or Bipolar, although they can make referrals to relevant specialists if they feel it is warranted.

Aspergers presents very differently in women to men and can often go undiagnosed. I recently found this list of female ASD traits which was a bit of an eye-opener - I tick 8/10 in column 1, 9/11 in column 2, only 2/12 in column 3, but 9/12 in column 4. Can't decide if I can be bothered to get a diagnosis as I have very much learned by now to fake the social stuff so that it doesn't impact my career performance.

Wow, thank you, I tick a lot in every column. Will take this when I go to see them next.

Well,
I got a lovely bouquet of flowers from mum today to thank me for the party.
So now I feel very guilty of course!
I rang to say thank you but reiterated I won't be able to pop in tomorrow as I have a lot to do (true)
First day back at school for my dc so I'm expecting tears from ds2!

thats nice badders, and dont feel guilty at all!

Francis, thanks for the book recommendation. I'll look it up.

Since the phone call with DH's grandfather, we've been a bit torn about what to do. One idea is to visit him to thank him in person for the money, and try to have a better conversation. Understandably DH doesn't want him to die (he's very old and getting frailer by the day) and that phone call to be the last time they spoke.

On the other hand, we can't see another conversation going any better, and we would probably be ambushed by PIL (as they all live close by, two hours from us). But then at least we could say we tried?

Badders, well done for reiterating that you wouldn't pop in, despite feeling guilty. Hope DS2 had a good day at school. DD was a bit nervous about starting back at Kindy yesterday, but in the end had fun.

Eternal, even if you do have Aspergers, it surely doesn't mean that everything that happened in your family was your fault

Pocket, your story and your contributions up thread are amazing. I hope your cold is on the mend.

I feel woefully inadequate to comment on anyone's story at all, but I have read every post and am dumbstruck at how many people have lived through such terrible childhoods. The legacy of those being of course the difficulties we have as adults.

I actually think in my own family I have a narc GM, who chose DM as GC and my uncle as SG. I might post some questions about it later, if it's ok. I can't quite get my head around it.

No I would not see this grandfather who has basically allowed himself to be used as a flying monkey here. Such people are not interested in any reasoned argument. They also only want to hear one point of view - theirs.
Do not forget that he has also played a pivotal role here also in your DHs dysfunctional family of origin.

What you would want to achieve from such a meeting and what would perhaps happen are two very different things.

Do feel free to post your own questions about your family of origin.