"But we took you to Stately Homes!" Survivors of Dysfunctional Families

[OnceAMeerNotAlwaysAMeer]

It's November '15, and the Stately Home is still open to visitors.

Forerunning threads:
December 2007
March 2008
August 2008
February 2009
May 2009
January 2010
April 2010
August 2010
March 2011
November 2011
January 2012
November 2012
January 2013
March 2013
August 2013
December 2013
February 2014
April 2014
July 2014
Oct 14 – Dec 14
Dec 14 – March 15
March - Nov 2015

Welcome to the Stately Homes Thread.

This is a long running thread which was originally started up by 'pages' see original thread here (December 2007)

So this thread originates from that thread and has become a safe haven for Adult children of abusive families.

One thing you will never hear on this thread is that your abuse or experience was not that bad. You will never have your feelings minimised the way they were when you were a child, or now that you are an adult. To coin the phrase of a much respected past poster Ally90;

'Nobody can judge how sad your childhood made you, even if you wrote a novel on it, only you know that. I can well imagine any of us saying some of the seemingly trivial things our parents/ siblings did to us to many of our real life acquaintances and them not understanding why we were upset/ angry/ hurt etc. And that is why this thread is here. It's a safe place to vent our true feelings, validate our childhood/ lifetime experiences of being hurt/ angry etc by our parents behaviour and to get support for dealing with family in the here and now.'

Most new posters generally start off their posts by saying; but it wasn't that bad for me or my experience wasn't as awful as x,y or z's.

Some on here have been emotionally abused and/ or physically abused. Some are not sure what category (there doesn't have to be any) they fall into.

NONE of that matters. What matters is how 'YOU' felt growing up, how 'YOU' feel now and a chance to talk about how and why those childhood experiences and/ or current parental contact, has left you feeling damaged, falling apart from the inside out and stumbling around trying to find your sense of self-worth.

You might also find the following links and information useful, if you have come this far and are still not sure whether you belong here or not.

'Toxic Parents' by Susan Forward.

I started with this book and found it really useful.

Here are some excerpts:

"Once you get going, most toxic parents will counterattack. After all, if they had the capacity to listen, to hear, to be reasonable, to respect your feelings, and to promote your independence, they wouldn't be toxic parents. They will probably perceive your words as treacherous personal assaults. They will tend to fall back on the same tactics and defences that they have always used, only more so.

Remember, the important thing is not their reaction but your response. If you can stand fast in the face of your parents' fury, accusations, threats and guilt-peddling, you will experience your finest hour.

Here are some typical parental reactions to confrontation:

"It never happened". Parents who have used denial to avoid their own feelings of inadequacy or anxiety, will undoubtedly use it during confrontation, to promote their version of reality. They'll insist that your allegations never happened, or that you're exaggerating. They won't remember, or they will accuse you of lying.

YOUR RESPONSE: Just because you don't remember, doesn't mean it didn't happen".

"It was your fault." Toxic parents are almost never willing to accept responsibility for their destructive behaviour. Instead, they will blame you. They will say that you were bad, or that you were difficult. They will claim that they did the best that they could but that you always created problems for them. They will say that you drove them crazy. They will offer as proof, the fact that everybody in the family knew what a problem you were. They will offer up a laundry list of your alleged offences against them.

YOUR RESPONSE: "You can keep trying to make this my fault, but I'm not going to accept the responsibility for what you did to me, when I was a child".

"I said I was sorry what more do you want?" Some parents may acknowledge a few of the things that you say but be unwilling to do anything about it.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate your apology, but that is just a beginning. If you're truly sorry, you'll work through this with me, to make a better relationship."

"We did the best we could." Some parents will remind you of how tough they had it while you were growing up and how hard they struggled. They will say such things as "You'll never understand what I was going through," or "I did the best I could". This particular style of response will often stir up a lot of sympathy and compassion for your parents. This is understandable, but it makes it difficult for you to remain focused on what you need to say in your confrontation. The temptation is for you once again to put their needs ahead of your own. It is important that you be able to acknowledge their difficulties, without invalidating your own.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I understand that you had a hard time, and I'm sure that you didn't hurt me on purpose, but I need you to understand that the way you dealt with your problems really did hurt me"

"Look what we did for you." Many parents will attempt to counter your assertions by recalling the wonderful times you had as a child and the loving moments you and they shared. By focusing on the good things, they can avoid looking at the darker side of their behaviour. Parents will typically remind you of gifts they gave you, places they took you, sacrifices they made for you, and thoughtful things they did. They will say things like, "this is the thanks we get" or "nothing was ever enough for you."

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate those things very much, but they didn't make up for ...."

"How can you do this to me?" Some parents act like martyrs. They'll collapse into tears, wring their hands, and express shock and disbelief at your "cruelty". They will act as if your confrontation has victimized them. They will accuse you of hurting them, or disappointing them. They will complain that they don't need this, they have enough problems. They will tell you that they are not strong enough or healthy enough to take this, that the heartache will kill them. Some of their sadness will, of course, be genuine. It is sad for parents to face their own shortcomings, to realise that they have caused their children significant pain. But their sadness can also be manipulative and controlling. It is their way of using guilt to try to make you back down from the confrontation.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I'm sorry you're upset. I'm sorry you're hurt. But I'm not willing to give up on this. I've been hurting for a long time, too."

Helpful Websites

Alice Miller

Personality Disorders definition

More helpful links:

Daughters of narcissistic mothers
Out of the FOG
You carry the cure in your own heart
Help for adult children of child abuse
Pete Walker

Some books:

Homecoming
Will I ever be good enough?
If you had controlling parents
When you and your mother can't be friends
Children of the self-absorbed
Recovery of your inner child

This final quote is from smithfield posting as therealsmithfield:

"I'm sure the other posters will be along shortly to add anything they feel I have left out. I personally don't claim to be sorted but I will say my head has become a helluva lot straighter since I started posting here. You will receive a lot of wisdom but above all else the insights and advice given will 'always' be delivered with warmth and support."

cross posted with loads of people there! Knit shows all too clearly that no one appreciates it if you sacrifice for them as they have come to expect it. You must be ting time and resources away from your own family and you should stop.

My DH is lovely but I know my MIL expects him to put her needs above the kids and I. The way I know is NONE of his family have ever asked what I want or what would suit me in 20 years.

Badders does your family ask what would suit you or ever take care of you in any way?

My mum was very depressed for most of my childhood.
She was utterly dependant on my dad.
Very very sad

Francis.
No

If I could move away I would

You bring it on yourself because you feel guilty, because they've made you feel like the adult who should fix everything all the time. I think for me, I felt like I had to try absolutely everything to make things right or it made me feel like I was the bad person, it was my fault. If I didn't pop round or text her, I felt like I was the horrible one, the horrible daughter who was causing trouble. But I only felt that way because I'd been taught from such a young age that my role, my entire purpose, was to keep everything ticking over. You're not a sacrificial lamb, you're a person entitled to their own life.

OK I think I have my answer in my last post badders.

You are the only one who wants to change this dynamic and you must start looking after yourself if you have had no time to grieve your dad. What are you going to change?

Believe me I know it's hard, I am no longer going along with what my MIL wants all the time and it is causing consternation and shock in them all! Because they think it is not allowed.

In YOUR last post Badders!

Thank you all
I am listening and mulling it all over
I know you are all right
X

I agree Badders, I know exactly how it feels to be in your shoes but ultimately it does you no good, they don't appreciate it.

For some reason (possibly because my mother was a violent, unpredictable alcoholic) I always felt the need to earn her approval and her and my father became to expect this from me, the child who was too scared to put a foot wrong who grew into an adult that would bend over backwards to do anything for a kind word or a thank you, I always seemed to need this confirmation that I was important to them.

Look at how my father treated me when I didn't show that approval (of his GF) he's not used to this now, a woman who is standing up for herself and her beliefs. He doesn't know how to handle me over this as he's never had to show me affection or closeness in the past as it's always only ever come from me. That's why I believe he prefers not to speak to me at all. I'm of no use to him any more.

You need to stand up to your mum a bit, create your own circle within your family and only do what you want for her and when it suits you. Easy for me to say but I've had my eyes openend over this and have realised being someone's whipping boy does you no good at all.

A good rule of thumb here is that if a relative is too toxic for you to deal with, they are far too toxic for your both vulnerable and defenceless children. They need to be protected from their granddad who has decided to waltz into their lives.

I would not have anything further to do with him under any circumstances. Your father is a weak bystander of a man swayed like the wind by his girlfriend. My guess is that he was not the ideal example of a parent to you when your mother was alive either.

I would think there are reasons why he has made contact with them now, it may well be because of his gfs influence on him.

Money or gifts should never be accepted from such people because its never without obligation or strings attached. It is your own sense of obligation that made you tell them to send him a thank you but the contact is its reward for such people like your dad. Their reply was used by him to bother them even more which indeed he has done.

I am not surprised at all that they have been hurt by all this, they have seen you hurt at his hands as well.

If he starts saying to others that you are somehow preventing him from seeing his grandchildren then I would simply state to them that they are only hearing one side of the story and that you need to be listened to.

You know the truth about your dad Knit and that is all that matters.

I think the problem is badz your siblings won't do anymore cos they don't want to, same as mine didnt. Everyone told me how guilty they would feel when my mum died and I was the only one to say No they won't, they'll be fine, And they were. They are just too self absorbed to see whats going on and they dont place you anywhere near the top of their priorities lists, probably because they are bang on top themselves. But you can see everything that goes on and you know your mum is getting old and does need some help, even though she drives you demented and does not acknowledge a bloody thing you do. It heartbreaking. I think you need to step back a bit, gradually, it'll take time. Towards the end of my mums life I realised I'd spent so many years running after mum I didnt know what else to do with myself and I was a bit lost when I wasnt looking after her. It was like she was my purpose in life and when she died I was totally bereft...but you know that bit!

It's so hard isn't it, so so hard. I think because to accept that you need to back away, is to truly accept that the people you are conditioned to love are not good people, are harmful. It is so hard to accept that as it is a loss in itself. When you keep going, keep playing the role, keep popping in, there's still the chance in your head that you will get the unconditional, caring family you want. But of course the reality is there is no chance of that happening and you will destroy yourself in the process of constantly playing a role that completely disregards your own desires and rights to be treated with kindness and care.

I read the Toxic Parents book suggested and particularly liked this quote: 'When your self concept has been shredded, when you have been deeply injured and made to feel the injury was all your fault, when you look for approval to those who can not or will not provide it—you play the role assigned to you by your abusers. It’s time to stop playing that role.'

Your siblings won't do anything because they see it as your job, they know that they don't need to as you will fill in the gaps. After all, that's your job, your role isn't it? Only it doesn't need to be!

bladders just to point out, you don't need to have a job to justify not seeing your mother. You don't need to justify it to your mother, or to your siblings. As it happens you have a sick child and that would be excuse enough but in any case it is your life and up to you how you spend your time. Your siblings with jobs, do they send you a portion of their wages? Course not. They get all the benefit of using their own time. You should too.
(Speaks the voice of the stay at home mum whose twins started kindergarten in the autumn. Was supposed to be going back to uni this year but have deferred so that I can do therapy, get fit and renew my love affair with my Xbox)

Thanks Attila, wise words as usual. I don't want to give him any satisfaction of giving him the opportunity to say my kids have been brought up to be anything but lovely, well mannered young people. It would suit him entirely to tell people he sent money but there was no reply and it wasn't appreciated.

I guess the money should have been returned unopened but to be honest the kids were quite pleased when they opened the cards.

I must remember we can't have it both ways though, can't go NC then accept gifts.

I think it's a kind of co-dependency badders. I remember that feeling of desperately trying to sort things out or do nice things for my mum, thinking that if I could just get it right she'd be happy, she'd see that life could be good or at least, calm. But no, you can't. There will always be drama with these people, and they will use it to keep you in your preassigned roles. I remember when I had the first big row with my mum after she'd slagged my husband off for things she'd invented and she said to my brother that she couldn't cope alone "and why should she?" i.e I've got G2B running around skivying after me.
If she doesn't want the operation - her decision
If she refuses a mobility vehicle - her decision
If she has a shit life because of that - her decision
I can tell you're reading this and it horrifies you, this idea that you could step back and what you want for her (to be happy, settled, calm, grateful, normal) is not the same as what she might want for herself. I remember that shock of realising I could step back, like I say it's part of the blurring of boundaries that comes with being co-dependent (which I think you are becoming). You and her merge, she takes up all the space in your head. But you know what? It's not the same for her, she's not endlessly worrying about you.
And it's the parentification, this enmeshment with her, taking responsibility for her. You aren't her parent. She is an adult, make her stand on her own two feet, I guarantee you she is far more capable than you think because it suits her to play the victim, it keeps you running after her being her whipping boy.
You are two separate people and you have responsibilities to your OWN children. They come first.
I would suggest you become suddenly much less available, busy. Meer if she's reading has very good advice for how to go about this.
Sending you hugs and strength and a powerful torch to see through the FOG. Read about co-dependency.

From what you write of him he clearly was not an ideal parent and your mother was not an ideal parent either (understatement). He was an enabler and bystander; he utterly failed in his duty to protect you and your siblings from his violent alcoholic wife. He stayed for his own reasons.

I would consider speaking to NACOA www.nacoa.org.uk knit, they may well be helpful to you also now. I would also read up on co-dependency behaviours because that and alcoholism go hand in hand. You are showing many characteristics and behaviours of an adult child of an alcoholic.

I would also read Toxic Parents by Susan Forward, particularly the section on alcoholic parents as that will likely resonate with your own past experiences.

Absolutely agree with good that you merge, almost become an extension of her, a tool that she can use. You don't exist to care for her, that is not your purpose.

Also you don't need to be busy to not see her, you just need to say that you are. You're not seeing her to care for you - you're so good at caring for others but you're not looking after yourself very well.

Hi, I've never seen this before and I don't know whether my story would even be valid or welcome here.
When I was 3 my mum kicked my dad out for cheating on her. He was very abusive to her (emotionally and physically) and I did witness him hitting her a few times. He never laid a finger on me however. After he was kicked out that's when the neighbours started to turn on my mum for no reason. They assumed she was interested in their husbands- she definitely wasn't and kept herself to herself all the time. They thought she was a snob. They'd point and laugh at us in the street. Some days I'd come home from school as I'd got older and the neighbours had been round to my house to beat her up. She was once in a neck brace when I came home. I was physically assaulted by a fully grown woman when I was 10, who was trying to get to my mum but I put myself in front of her and was pushed out of the way and hit my head off the radiator in our house. Another woman came in and then proceeded to kick my mum repeatedly in the head and the face. I can still hear my mums screams sometimes and I have to go near the place I used to live as my grandparent lives there. The last time I saw my childhood home was 9 years ago as I thought I'd go and see what it was like. I had to get out of the car and be sick. We put up with this for 8 years.
Even now I dread the summer (that's when it was worse because they'd all sit outside our house on the wall and shout things to us) drunk people, loud people and loud noises.
I suffer from anxiety and I've only ever tried CBT which I didn't find helpful at all because it doesn't help deal with pat emotions it only helps to deal with emotions which are new.
Anyway I apologise if this is in the wrong place as I know it's about parents but I've never talked to anyone about it before.

Pixie. I'm so very sorry. Pack mentality is scary. Have you had any counselling?
I can't make mum happy. That's very true. I wish I could, but I can't.
And I agree, she is more capable than I think
Thank you all again.
It's really helping talking to people who "get it"
Ssd...yes. You are right. I'm thinking of starting my ou degree again. It will mean taking out a student loan which worries me...

I think in many ways she has had an unhappy life.
But I can't make her happy.

Pixiechops that sounds horrendous did your mum ever tried to move?

"I think in many ways she has had an unhappy life"

Her own childhood may well have had abuse in it but its still no excuse or justification for her past and present actions towards you as one of her now adult children. You have had and still have a terrible time at her hands and are suffering as a result.

You are only responsible for your own happiness.

You see, I would always have said the same about my mum: hard life, crap relationship with her own mother, married an alcoholic, nervous breakdown and depression and anxiety. But she milks it, she is never happier than when unhappy, a world class whinger. Being miserable and involved in some kind of drama is like a fucking hobby. And eventually if you can get just a chink of light to break through the FOG which has trained you all your life, you can see it's an act and it gets boring really fast.
You can't make her happy. Whatever you do it will NEVER be quite enough. Almost, (just enough to keep you running after her) but not enough. So, you're always going to be in the wrong, why not live your own life and enjoy your own life in the meantime?

Maybe Badders if you had a list of statements such as "I can't make her happy", "I am entitled to.my own thoughts and feelings" in writing on your phone or wherever you can look at them when you start to slip and feel terrible for saying "no" or are criticised by your family for not doing what they expect.

These patterns are heavily ingrained.

It really is time to care for yourself.and do all the things for yourself that you do for others.