"But we took you to Stately Homes!" Survivors of Dysfunctional Families

[OnceAMeerNotAlwaysAMeer]

It's November '15, and the Stately Home is still open to visitors.

Forerunning threads:
December 2007
March 2008
August 2008
February 2009
May 2009
January 2010
April 2010
August 2010
March 2011
November 2011
January 2012
November 2012
January 2013
March 2013
August 2013
December 2013
February 2014
April 2014
July 2014
Oct 14 – Dec 14
Dec 14 – March 15
March - Nov 2015

Welcome to the Stately Homes Thread.

This is a long running thread which was originally started up by 'pages' see original thread here (December 2007)

So this thread originates from that thread and has become a safe haven for Adult children of abusive families.

One thing you will never hear on this thread is that your abuse or experience was not that bad. You will never have your feelings minimised the way they were when you were a child, or now that you are an adult. To coin the phrase of a much respected past poster Ally90;

'Nobody can judge how sad your childhood made you, even if you wrote a novel on it, only you know that. I can well imagine any of us saying some of the seemingly trivial things our parents/ siblings did to us to many of our real life acquaintances and them not understanding why we were upset/ angry/ hurt etc. And that is why this thread is here. It's a safe place to vent our true feelings, validate our childhood/ lifetime experiences of being hurt/ angry etc by our parents behaviour and to get support for dealing with family in the here and now.'

Most new posters generally start off their posts by saying; but it wasn't that bad for me or my experience wasn't as awful as x,y or z's.

Some on here have been emotionally abused and/ or physically abused. Some are not sure what category (there doesn't have to be any) they fall into.

NONE of that matters. What matters is how 'YOU' felt growing up, how 'YOU' feel now and a chance to talk about how and why those childhood experiences and/ or current parental contact, has left you feeling damaged, falling apart from the inside out and stumbling around trying to find your sense of self-worth.

You might also find the following links and information useful, if you have come this far and are still not sure whether you belong here or not.

'Toxic Parents' by Susan Forward.

I started with this book and found it really useful.

Here are some excerpts:

"Once you get going, most toxic parents will counterattack. After all, if they had the capacity to listen, to hear, to be reasonable, to respect your feelings, and to promote your independence, they wouldn't be toxic parents. They will probably perceive your words as treacherous personal assaults. They will tend to fall back on the same tactics and defences that they have always used, only more so.

Remember, the important thing is not their reaction but your response. If you can stand fast in the face of your parents' fury, accusations, threats and guilt-peddling, you will experience your finest hour.

Here are some typical parental reactions to confrontation:

"It never happened". Parents who have used denial to avoid their own feelings of inadequacy or anxiety, will undoubtedly use it during confrontation, to promote their version of reality. They'll insist that your allegations never happened, or that you're exaggerating. They won't remember, or they will accuse you of lying.

YOUR RESPONSE: Just because you don't remember, doesn't mean it didn't happen".

"It was your fault." Toxic parents are almost never willing to accept responsibility for their destructive behaviour. Instead, they will blame you. They will say that you were bad, or that you were difficult. They will claim that they did the best that they could but that you always created problems for them. They will say that you drove them crazy. They will offer as proof, the fact that everybody in the family knew what a problem you were. They will offer up a laundry list of your alleged offences against them.

YOUR RESPONSE: "You can keep trying to make this my fault, but I'm not going to accept the responsibility for what you did to me, when I was a child".

"I said I was sorry what more do you want?" Some parents may acknowledge a few of the things that you say but be unwilling to do anything about it.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate your apology, but that is just a beginning. If you're truly sorry, you'll work through this with me, to make a better relationship."

"We did the best we could." Some parents will remind you of how tough they had it while you were growing up and how hard they struggled. They will say such things as "You'll never understand what I was going through," or "I did the best I could". This particular style of response will often stir up a lot of sympathy and compassion for your parents. This is understandable, but it makes it difficult for you to remain focused on what you need to say in your confrontation. The temptation is for you once again to put their needs ahead of your own. It is important that you be able to acknowledge their difficulties, without invalidating your own.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I understand that you had a hard time, and I'm sure that you didn't hurt me on purpose, but I need you to understand that the way you dealt with your problems really did hurt me"

"Look what we did for you." Many parents will attempt to counter your assertions by recalling the wonderful times you had as a child and the loving moments you and they shared. By focusing on the good things, they can avoid looking at the darker side of their behaviour. Parents will typically remind you of gifts they gave you, places they took you, sacrifices they made for you, and thoughtful things they did. They will say things like, "this is the thanks we get" or "nothing was ever enough for you."

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate those things very much, but they didn't make up for ...."

"How can you do this to me?" Some parents act like martyrs. They'll collapse into tears, wring their hands, and express shock and disbelief at your "cruelty". They will act as if your confrontation has victimized them. They will accuse you of hurting them, or disappointing them. They will complain that they don't need this, they have enough problems. They will tell you that they are not strong enough or healthy enough to take this, that the heartache will kill them. Some of their sadness will, of course, be genuine. It is sad for parents to face their own shortcomings, to realise that they have caused their children significant pain. But their sadness can also be manipulative and controlling. It is their way of using guilt to try to make you back down from the confrontation.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I'm sorry you're upset. I'm sorry you're hurt. But I'm not willing to give up on this. I've been hurting for a long time, too."

Helpful Websites

Alice Miller

Personality Disorders definition

More helpful links:

Daughters of narcissistic mothers
Out of the FOG
You carry the cure in your own heart
Help for adult children of child abuse
Pete Walker

Some books:

Homecoming
Will I ever be good enough?
If you had controlling parents
When you and your mother can't be friends
Children of the self-absorbed
Recovery of your inner child

This final quote is from smithfield posting as therealsmithfield:

"I'm sure the other posters will be along shortly to add anything they feel I have left out. I personally don't claim to be sorted but I will say my head has become a helluva lot straighter since I started posting here. You will receive a lot of wisdom but above all else the insights and advice given will 'always' be delivered with warmth and support."

Campervan

Hi all, happy new year to you all.

I've not posted on this thread for a long time but this time of year makes my DM go a bit funny and sulk and strop and throws me right back in with the FOG. She really cast a shitty shadow over Xmas fore this year.

BTL - your post really resonates with me. My DM isn't an alcoholic but I totally empathize with everything you say. I was laden with FOG over Xmas, to the point I was (am?) considering counselling again (never quite got around to it) and now I just feel incredibly sad. Each little strop that DM has chips away at our relationship a bit more. Sometimes I can compartmentalise it and think "oh it is what it is, that's life, no biggie" and other times it really hits me how sad it all is, how I wish we were closer, how I wish she was happier and easier to deal with, how unfair it is, how cross I am.

I also blame her for my bad traits. At the moment I'm struggling with letting people in and being kind and calm. In my head this is her fault. It's probably not and I just need to learn to take responsibility for my mindset but I feel really confused about the extent to how much she has lede to be/think/act like I do. Anyway, I'm digressing a bit but you're not alone in how big it all feels. (And my DM is tame compared to some of the horror stories on here )

Happy New Year, all!

Hope you don't mind if I update but feel like I'm going a bit peculiar after the last few days!

25th December. I was invited down to mum and dad's after my children had gone to stay with their father (and I would then be on my own). THEY invited me, including a phone call to make sure I was going.

Got there, mum lay on the sofa (so there was nowhere for me to sit), face turned to the back of the sofa, and ignored me. I lasted 40 minutes then left quietly and drove home. Good job I wasn't feeling lonely/emotional that Christmas night!

28th December. Very gushing and over the top phone call from mum. She usually does those if someone is with her. Very lovey dovey, inviting me to lunch. They had cooked one of their own hens (they live on a farm, not as unlikely as it sounds!) It was, apparently, the best chicken ever, so tasty, lovely sandwiches were awaiting me. I was told to hurry down.

Got there (takes 5 minutes). Dad and brother were in the kitchen, mum was hiding in the living room. There was one bread roll, cut in half, on a plate. Dad and brother started looking for the chicken which brother had taken off the bone carefully. In the 5 minutes between the phone call and my getting there, mum had given it to the dog! 2 rather dried up chicken legs remained so I tried to get some meat off those.

New Years Eve. A bonfire party hosted by a family friend. Lots of people there I have known all my life. A conversation started between mum and a lady a bit older than me (who is not local so we don't know her well). For some mad and bizarre reason, mum's monologue was all about a friend of mine. Where he went to university and what he did for a job (ALL the details wrong). This friend of mine died 10 years ago. Why on earth he was brought up as a topic of conversation, I cannot imagine. Of course the monologue ended with "and then he died" :-/

Then mum started off about a mutual friend of the older lady and me. She got his university wrong - not only did he go to mine but he lived in my house!!

THEN... she started on about the dad of my friend who died. She told a story of this dad stopping the car and refusing to drive on until I said something. She told older lady about how I've always been quiet and that it freaked my friend's dad out. The whole story was fabricated. I just said "I have no recollection of that happening".

Sigh.

Yesterday my older son asked me if my mother has bipolar.

Attila thank you for the advice and recommendations, I'll have a look through those bits now. The co-dependency bits I certainly recognise. Its so hard not to feel selfish, especially because growing up in many ways I shielded my younger siblings from the worst of it and now they very much expect me to be be problem solver and to fix everything and 'manage' mum. I often feel like that is my only role in life a facilitating them having their lives. But I can't stand that anymore, I have to take care of myself because they never did.

nearlyready yes I totally agree - sometimes im able to think logically and recognise all the positives in my life, all the people I'm lucky to have. However other days the sadness is overwhelming and yes, the unfairness of it all.

I find myself seeing other families and though I know that no family is perfect and all have their issues, I can become overcome with jealousy. I still wish I had a mother who was warm, caring, and most importantly who's interactions with me weren't primarily conditional on me doing as she wants and playing her game.

At the same time it is so hard to believe that I'm talking about my mum, that this is a situation that I'm in.

The traits thing - it's so hard to see parts of yourself so deeply affected by something you never asked for in the first place and had no control over. I often wonder what I might have been like without this background.

nearly, you are taking responsibility for your mindset right now - you're aware of it, you're considering counselling and you're thinking about how your experiences may have affected your temperament. Acknowledging the effect of your upbringing doesn't mean abdicating responsibility - after all, even if you did throw your hands up in the air and say it was all down to your mother, you'd still be the one feeling sad.

Happy New Year!! I hope it's been a good one.

We've had a really boring new Year's day as it's rained non stop all day but it has been so calm and nice. Yesterday we went to a all you can eat chinese buffet thing with MIL, she had never been to anything like it and was very taken with it and the free calendar they gave her grin. Then we had a selection of cakes for high tea with the fire on then after a bit MIL went home and DH and i watched that martian film with Matt Damon in it and drank amaretto and ate chocolate until midnight, then went to bed.

It has been about my best NYE and it's because of NC. Atilla you always used to tell me "you will never have peace until your mother is no longer in your life" and you were right. It's sad that you were, but you were and I am getting to the point where I can accept that without feeling too much guilt. It's just a fact, she can't be in my life and that's not my fault or something for me to fix, it just is.

This year for me has been a year of blossoming confidence in myself and trusting my feelings, of personal growth and happiness and 2016 is going to be more of the same because I am going to make it so.

Wishing you all love, light and laughter for the coming year. We deserve it.

Thank you all. Does anyone know what kind of counselling might be suitable? Also I'm due to start a new FT job after being out of work for 18 months soon and I'm wondering whether it'll be a bit much to be dealing with counselling and all that it will bring up/out at the same time.

BTL feeling envious of others must be really tough to deal with. But like you mention, every family has skeletons in its closet and its easy to think other people have it better when the reality is probably very different. And I also struggle with this "whoa, this is my mum I'm talking about" like she's some kind of evil force, and it makes me feel everso disloyal. I find it really difficult to imagine life without this cloud hanging over and it seems incredulous that its even possible that there are families who don't have any of this shit going on, so I suppose I don't feel jealous because I don't really know what I'm missing. I have no idea what I would want our relationship to be like in an ideal world because it's so untenable with her.

toomuch As an example, when I find myself being critical of everything and anything, I totally blame DM in that she is also critical and because she's been my role model / reference it's no wonder I'm doing the same. I kind of coasted at school, did ok, but definitely didn't hit my potential and I blame her. I guess I'm just angry with her.

frith my DM sounds very similar - particularly the gushing when she's around her friends and taking on other people's stories. Ugh.

GTB you sound like you're in a good place . My DM was once having a sulk about my brother not being in touch with her very much and she said to me "one day I'll die and I wonder how he'll feel about me then, about not bothering to call his mum once I'm gone". This haunts me in that I wonder how I'll feel when she's gone. Devastation? Sadness? Anger? Relief? Regret? I guess all of the above... though for reasons that probably don't reconcile with what she would imagine. I'm so sad that she's so self-absorbed and so off-target with how she comes across and how she is perceived.

Sorry.... all getting a bit self-indulgent.

Hope Day 1 of 2016 has been good to you all.

Hello I have posted a couple of times in this thread so Happy New Year to all. My challenge atm is my MIL and her relationship with DH. We have been happily married for 20 yrs but only in the last few months has the penny finally dropped and I see the weird family dynamic between his mum and her children and her twin sister.

She is divorced from his dad who I get the impression stayed until the children were adults and left home and promptly bailed.

She can be fun, funny and charming but also gets very anxious, angry and unpredictable and then can be cruel and rages against whoever is unfortunate enough to be around.

The main "rules" are that she is never responsible for her behaviour and she never apologises.

Other rules: her children are responsible for her and her emotional state, they should always rescue her and parent her when necessary.

She spends every penny she has access to and is in a constant state of crisis.

We were living abroad for many years so the reality of the impact she can have on our marriage and family has only finally been revealed to me. We live 12 hours away (thank God) but a recent visit from her helped me finally see how weird her dynamic is with DH. When she is with him she treats him like her husband or dad and she behaves as if they are the "paired partners" in the household. I have talked to DH but he is very much guilt tripped by her. Of course he loves his mum but told me he knows she is emotionally immature. He is her Golden Child so anything he does or doesn't do that she doesn't like gets blamed on me. In fact she tells everyone I hate her. Up to now I have been somewhat passive. But recently I have had enough. Reading this thread helps me understand how the family is operating. When I read about Borderline that describes all her behaviour. I am not suggesting that is her diagnosis just that it is a relief to see all the behaviours described clearly in black and white and know that it is her and not us.

I have never chased anyone through their house screaming at them or screamed down the phone at them while they are sitting next to their chronically ill baby in hospital but she has treated me this way. Now I am finally able to say this is abusive and I want the least contact possible with her.

nearly some people call that fleas, when you puck up an unhealthy habit from an abusive parent - and the lack of direction thing is fairly common I think in (adult) children who have had to suppress their own feelings in order to manage someone else's. So in my drive by amateur opinion, therapy will probably help with that.
I notice you say things like you should take responsibility, that you're being self indulgent - it sounds like you are quite harsh with yourself, that you would like to be able to just woman up and get past all this. It sounds like your mother talking. (Well, it sounds like my mother talking actually). I think you do have to take the time and do the work to recover - you need to be kind to yourself and acknowledge the fact that it will take time and effort. We're used to discounting our feelings and putting our own needs last, it comes with the territory.

On a practical note, a lot of therapists these days do phone or Skype consultations, so you can do away from work.

tootired, campervan plan sounds like my in-laws. 'We're here for the first time in 3 years, can we have the kids to do something photogenic with?" Yesterday The Sound of Music was on and the kids were doing that So Long, Farewell song to the dinner guests and my DH was like, that's basically what my parents used to do with us when they had guests over.

Francis reading your post is just a reminder of how guilt is thread through so many of these toxic relationships and in fact is what the whole thing hangs on. I have thought so many times, if this was a friend doing this, you wouldn't accept it, but when it's family there is this inbuilt expectation what we should forgive them.

Hello.
I wonder if I could ask some advice?
I need help in coping with my mother.
She is a very difficult woman. Since my dad died 2.5 years ago she has become even more so.
I live in the same town (for my dc schools not because of her) I have 2 younger siblings who live here too.
I am the eldest and from an early age was made to cook, clean and look after the other 2 whilst she worked.
We needed the money but it was hard on me and Tbh I'm not sure my relationship with my siblings has ever recovered.
My brother is th e typical golden child. Can do no wrong
Literally.
She even favours his Child over the other gc.
My sister and I have never really gotten along. She is very Moody and selfish. She married a pig of a man who treats her bad their kids like crap but he earned a lot of money before a health issue this year.
She is very very unhappy, but has brought it all on herself. I have limited sympathy Tbh
Obv there n s a huge back story wrt my siblings and me and some of the stunts they have pulled over the years....
They both work (my sister only since June last year) so I am the one who is always there (my dh works away so I have found finding a job very hard although I know it's really important that I do asap)
My mums health is bad. She had a femoral bypass 3 years ago which has failed. She has blockages in the graft. This means she is now pretty much housebound as she can't walk far.
She needs the op to be re done but is refusing.
Obv this is her choice but how do I make it clear I am not going to become her carer? She sees very little of my brother unless she is looking after his child (although i suppose this might have to stop ) ditto my sister.
I go every day, sometimes twice.
It's me she phones if she needs help.
I was my dad's executor and did everything, even the funeralnwasnallndown to me.
I found it very hard and lonely.
It's her 70th birthday today. We asked her what she wanted to do and after much faffing I said I would do a buffet here.
So I have 14 people due at 4pm
I realise this is my own fault for offering but I felt bad for her as my sister was talking about going abroad for new year (even after we discussed all going for a meal and i had booked it!!)
I really want this to be the last big thing I do for her.
I resent it.
I resent her.
I resent my siblings for having a childhood when mine ended at 11.
I hate feels like this. It's awful.
I miss my dad.
I nursed her through 2 breakdowns before I was 20. (She denies this. Apparently she only ever had panic attacks )
She denies most things about my childhood Tbh.
But I know they happened.
Like when my brother stole £500 from my bank account before my wedding.
I phoned the police and they told me I was "tearing the family apart"
I left home then.
My parents paid me back. Not money they could afford, I'm sure.
My brother didn't have a long term job until 3 years ago (he is 39!) And he got sacked from that for failing a breath test.
Her reaction?
"They had it in for him"
Sigh.
I have come to the conclusion that - for my own sanity - I need to back off. She isn't grateful for anything I do. I know that. I know my dad would be disappointed in me but I have to put my own family first.
What do I do?
How do I pull back?
Please dont tell me to go nc. I can't. She is frail and in poor health. But I realise I need to do something.
Any advice?
And thanks for reading if you got this far!!!

Just reading a few if the posts and yes to feeling like she doesn't give a shit!!
An example...
Mum wanted to go to see her Dr to discuss the options (there are only 2 - have the op or don't!)
So I rang the Dr surgery and found out what day she was on and told mum to phone up and get an appt and I would set my alarm early and take her.
Except that she then arranged with her friend (she used to be my friend, but that's another story) later that day to actually go down the Dr early at 7.15 (!?) And sit and wait.
Fine.
Except she didn't tell me until she text me at 8.20 to let me know she was already there.
I was awake by this point as has set my alarm and got up.
She is genuinely baffled as to why I am annoyed by this.
Why should she phone me?
I obv haven't got anything better to do.

badders look at your 2 posts.

They contradict each other massively, you are in some kind of Fog fuelled panic.

You do it all, you don't need to.

You didn't need to call he surgery, your mother can do that. She's shown you that she can arrange to get there. (I want to know more about the stolen friend btw)

Let her make the calls, let her do the appointments, stop bustling around trying to do it all.

None of them seem to value what you do, so stop doing it.

If your family say anything say to them that it's about time hey took their turn.

Your mother snubbed you that morning for some reason.

That reason was nothing to do with you. It was her decision. In her head she never arranged anything with you, so why the hell are you so upset....

The friend thinks I'm being unreasonable too.
She was "trying to help me"
It's a friend of mine from church. I've known her for years. She has been trying to help with mum since dad died (and has been wonderful tbh) but she now seems to think she knows my family better than me :( she has known them for 2 years!
She is my mums age (almost) so has more in common with mum I guess.
Dunno.
I feel really sad about it. She obv feels mums pov is more relevant a than mine.
She has said she doesn't want mum to come between us. But she has. Her "poor me" act reels em all in.
She lies to Drs - which is why I try and attend appts with her. She tried to tell a dr she has only smoked for 15 years after she had a heart attack. Erm...yeah. Ok mum. More like 40 years!!!
She didn't speak to me for 3 days after that :)
I think the other day just proved to me - yet again - how little I feature in her head. WHY in gods name did she arrange for a lift and then not tell me!?
Is it me?
Is that not just...odd?
The nail in the coffin with my friend has been her defence of my siblings. They never go and see mum(unless they want something or she is looking after one of their kids) and friend said "well I've been there a few times and they have been there"
So....
I guess that's that friendship gone.
I suppose mum needs it more.

You know the stupid thing?
I shouldn't be surprised. I really shouldn't.
She always favours others over me...
A few months ago mum was fed up so I went down and we decided to to go to a local cafe for something to eat.
We were walking up the steps to the cafe and she got a phone call from my sister who offered to take her shopping to tesco.
She literally almost knocked me over in her hurrying get sown the steps to get home so my sister could pick her up.
prior to her recent ill health she wouldn't leave the house if she thought my brother might pop in for 20 mins.
It's sad really.

Badders you need to stop trying to make your family care f#####################or you by caring for them. I think, in a nutshell. If your mum lies to the

Sorry, little person intervention! Will post properly later...

I just need to get through today.
It will be ok.
She will do what she normally does - arrive, eat and leave ASAP.
(She is like that with my siblings too though)
On Xmas morning she came and stayed about 40 mins.
Just couldn't leave quickly enough.
Yet she is always moaning how alone and bored she feels.
Sigh.

Also...she is refusing to consider a wheelchair or motorised scooter.
So she is basically sat in the house.

Let her. I know how it feels, I've been in the FOG fuelled panic. But that's what it is. She is treating you like shit. Stop doing stuff for her. You need to withdraw, for your own sanity. Have you read up on FOG, or had any counselling? Your mother is fucking with your head.

What good said. You have to leave them to it. Your mother will never take responsibility for herself while you keep looking after everything for her.

Perhaps you could take a few steps back. The friend could do more and more, and you could do less and less.

Actually, the 'friend's' behaviour is really unhelpful and yes, that friendship has gone. (I'd make use of her though)

I really feel for you Badders. Your mum has you and your siblings in assigned roles. I see some familiarity with my MIL who I am trying to understand. My MIL doesn't want the role of parent as then she has to be responsible so she tries to always pass that to others.

My DH is the Golden Child and no matter what my SIL does for her mum (tons, tons more than DH) she never will enter the Golden Circle with him because that is exclusively for MIL and DH (in MIL'S mind). My MIL even told me that she thought SIL would never amount to anything and she is surprised if she has any success!

I have been doing lots of reading and discussing in the last few months to make sense of it all - and I am not part of the Family of Origin! - because it is hard to describe it all and make sense of it.

The bottom line is your mum most likely has some form of Personality Disorder. Similar to an alcoholic she has set up a family dynamic where she is at the center at all times and needs to keep everyone else in their codependent roles. It is very important to her that she is always the most important family member and expects to get her needs met.

Your needs are completely irrelevant.

By putting you at a very young age in the parent role (parentifying you) you have been trained over a very long period to put her needs above your own.

My SIL is like this, she is always sacrificing her time, money and energy for her mother (who I have never heard thank her).

You need a massive culture change where you decide to finally put yourself and your own family number one.

This will cause outcry in your family of origin as they all try and force you back into your regular role.

You may well need a therapist to help you out of the FOG (fear, obligation and guilt) but I think in your case the worm has finally turned.

Be honest with yourself too. What are the advantages of the role you have been given? Had it given you more authority or power in the family? I think my DH is somewhat addicted to his role as Golden Child - who wouldn't want to bask in constant praise and adulation?

You are an intelligent and caring person, you don't need to be acting in a role any longer.

Totally agree with what francis says, and badders you need to get angry, that's the way to start breaking through the FOG. And you should be angry, she is treating you like shit on her shoe. Because she can, she always has done.
francis it must be hard to be married to the Golden Child, I know my DH found it hard, but at least my mother massively overplayed her hand and once you've seen at least part of what's going on it's hard to unsee it and then the anger helps to smash those ties of Obligation and Guilt.
Put it this way, you wouldn't put up with it from anyone else, family aren't any different, in fact, the other way around, family should be the ones cherishing you, NOT SHITTING ON YOU.