"But we took you to Stately Homes!" Survivors of Dysfunctional Families

[OnceAMeerNotAlwaysAMeer]

It's November '15, and the Stately Home is still open to visitors.

Forerunning threads:
December 2007
March 2008
August 2008
February 2009
May 2009
January 2010
April 2010
August 2010
March 2011
November 2011
January 2012
November 2012
January 2013
March 2013
August 2013
December 2013
February 2014
April 2014
July 2014
Oct 14 – Dec 14
Dec 14 – March 15
March - Nov 2015

Welcome to the Stately Homes Thread.

This is a long running thread which was originally started up by 'pages' see original thread here (December 2007)

So this thread originates from that thread and has become a safe haven for Adult children of abusive families.

One thing you will never hear on this thread is that your abuse or experience was not that bad. You will never have your feelings minimised the way they were when you were a child, or now that you are an adult. To coin the phrase of a much respected past poster Ally90;

'Nobody can judge how sad your childhood made you, even if you wrote a novel on it, only you know that. I can well imagine any of us saying some of the seemingly trivial things our parents/ siblings did to us to many of our real life acquaintances and them not understanding why we were upset/ angry/ hurt etc. And that is why this thread is here. It's a safe place to vent our true feelings, validate our childhood/ lifetime experiences of being hurt/ angry etc by our parents behaviour and to get support for dealing with family in the here and now.'

Most new posters generally start off their posts by saying; but it wasn't that bad for me or my experience wasn't as awful as x,y or z's.

Some on here have been emotionally abused and/ or physically abused. Some are not sure what category (there doesn't have to be any) they fall into.

NONE of that matters. What matters is how 'YOU' felt growing up, how 'YOU' feel now and a chance to talk about how and why those childhood experiences and/ or current parental contact, has left you feeling damaged, falling apart from the inside out and stumbling around trying to find your sense of self-worth.

You might also find the following links and information useful, if you have come this far and are still not sure whether you belong here or not.

'Toxic Parents' by Susan Forward.

I started with this book and found it really useful.

Here are some excerpts:

"Once you get going, most toxic parents will counterattack. After all, if they had the capacity to listen, to hear, to be reasonable, to respect your feelings, and to promote your independence, they wouldn't be toxic parents. They will probably perceive your words as treacherous personal assaults. They will tend to fall back on the same tactics and defences that they have always used, only more so.

Remember, the important thing is not their reaction but your response. If you can stand fast in the face of your parents' fury, accusations, threats and guilt-peddling, you will experience your finest hour.

Here are some typical parental reactions to confrontation:

"It never happened". Parents who have used denial to avoid their own feelings of inadequacy or anxiety, will undoubtedly use it during confrontation, to promote their version of reality. They'll insist that your allegations never happened, or that you're exaggerating. They won't remember, or they will accuse you of lying.

YOUR RESPONSE: Just because you don't remember, doesn't mean it didn't happen".

"It was your fault." Toxic parents are almost never willing to accept responsibility for their destructive behaviour. Instead, they will blame you. They will say that you were bad, or that you were difficult. They will claim that they did the best that they could but that you always created problems for them. They will say that you drove them crazy. They will offer as proof, the fact that everybody in the family knew what a problem you were. They will offer up a laundry list of your alleged offences against them.

YOUR RESPONSE: "You can keep trying to make this my fault, but I'm not going to accept the responsibility for what you did to me, when I was a child".

"I said I was sorry what more do you want?" Some parents may acknowledge a few of the things that you say but be unwilling to do anything about it.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate your apology, but that is just a beginning. If you're truly sorry, you'll work through this with me, to make a better relationship."

"We did the best we could." Some parents will remind you of how tough they had it while you were growing up and how hard they struggled. They will say such things as "You'll never understand what I was going through," or "I did the best I could". This particular style of response will often stir up a lot of sympathy and compassion for your parents. This is understandable, but it makes it difficult for you to remain focused on what you need to say in your confrontation. The temptation is for you once again to put their needs ahead of your own. It is important that you be able to acknowledge their difficulties, without invalidating your own.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I understand that you had a hard time, and I'm sure that you didn't hurt me on purpose, but I need you to understand that the way you dealt with your problems really did hurt me"

"Look what we did for you." Many parents will attempt to counter your assertions by recalling the wonderful times you had as a child and the loving moments you and they shared. By focusing on the good things, they can avoid looking at the darker side of their behaviour. Parents will typically remind you of gifts they gave you, places they took you, sacrifices they made for you, and thoughtful things they did. They will say things like, "this is the thanks we get" or "nothing was ever enough for you."

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate those things very much, but they didn't make up for ...."

"How can you do this to me?" Some parents act like martyrs. They'll collapse into tears, wring their hands, and express shock and disbelief at your "cruelty". They will act as if your confrontation has victimized them. They will accuse you of hurting them, or disappointing them. They will complain that they don't need this, they have enough problems. They will tell you that they are not strong enough or healthy enough to take this, that the heartache will kill them. Some of their sadness will, of course, be genuine. It is sad for parents to face their own shortcomings, to realise that they have caused their children significant pain. But their sadness can also be manipulative and controlling. It is their way of using guilt to try to make you back down from the confrontation.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I'm sorry you're upset. I'm sorry you're hurt. But I'm not willing to give up on this. I've been hurting for a long time, too."

Helpful Websites

Alice Miller

Personality Disorders definition

More helpful links:

Daughters of narcissistic mothers
Out of the FOG
You carry the cure in your own heart
Help for adult children of child abuse
Pete Walker

Some books:

Homecoming
Will I ever be good enough?
If you had controlling parents
When you and your mother can't be friends
Children of the self-absorbed
Recovery of your inner child

This final quote is from smithfield posting as therealsmithfield:

"I'm sure the other posters will be along shortly to add anything they feel I have left out. I personally don't claim to be sorted but I will say my head has become a helluva lot straighter since I started posting here. You will receive a lot of wisdom but above all else the insights and advice given will 'always' be delivered with warmth and support."

Spoke to local children's services and they have their name, address details. They said they will 'investigate' but they can't tell me any more.

Thanks Good, I think I do need many more hours of reading. I keep telling myself that I'm past that point and no longer feel guilty but the reality is that's how I want to feel, free. But I don't.

Here's an example of their behaviour after I began enforcing boundaries:

A Friday evening; DH has just come in from work. We've been like passing ships all week and he's arrived home just after children in bed with pizza and wine. I have a dvd on, ready to go. Phone rings as I'm pouring wine. It's my mother. I answer and she says, "I'm just calling for a chat". I respond, "Sorry mum, we're just sitting down to eat. I haven't seen DH all week and we're watching a film tonight. We'll have to have a chat some other time." Loooonnnnngg silence. Me: "Are you still there?" Mum: "YES!" "So you heard what I said? I'm busy and don't have time to chat with you?" Mum: "Right, okay then. Bye." Hangs up.

We sit down with our food and press play. Five minutes later my phone pings. I have a text message from my dad: "Is there a problem? You have really upset your mum, I've never seen her like this, she's devastated (yes, really). You could have had a 5 minute chat with her. That's all she wanted. It would cost you nothing. Also, when are we going to get to see the children? It's been 2 weeks. I work weekdays as you know, the weekends are the only time I can see them but you don't make the time to see us. (Note: We have regular weekend activities, spend time with friends and they often see MIL and stay over on a weekend. We love our lifestyle.) If we've upset you, then let's be having it out." Bearing in mind my previous attempts to talk about the abuse and the emotional neglect were always met with denial, blame put on me for 'always getting my brother into trouble', and the wounded mother routine.

I responded with "I'm sorry to hear that mum is upset, but that's not my responsibility. I haven't seen DH all week, we have just sat down to eat and watch a film and I therefore do not have time to chat with her right now. Two weeks is not a long time for you to not have seen the children." Then another reply saying "Yes it is a long time, you are not being fair to us. You could have paused the film and spared 5 minutes to talk to your mum, if you had phoned us in the same circumstances, we would have paused the film to talk to you. Anyway, I will leave there and give you chance to have a think about it." I then didn't respond. Three days later, I got a call from my mum which I answered and she acted like nothing had happened. This is the typical pattern. I often get a call from them on a Friday evening because they want to come over at weekends. When I say no, my mum gets passive aggressive, uses protracted silence and I can hear the underlying rage in her voice. I started ignoring Friday night calls altogether after that. Then the turning up at the house began. Generally at weekends our door used to be left open while we're in for friends to let themselves in, but we've had to start keeping it locked the whole time otherwise they would just walk in.

There was one weekend when MIL had the children while we celebrated our anniversary with a night away. I got the 3rd degree before we left about where we were going, for how long and what time we were back. They were told by myself and DH that we didn't have time to see them that weekend (they are not safe people for my children to be around at any rate), and she phoned twice while we were gone; once in the evening as we were enjoying a lovely meal which I ignored and she never left a message. Then again in the morning on the journey back trying to squeeze themselves into our plans for the day. I said we didn't have time and they walked into our house within 30 minutes of our arrival home (before the locked door policy came into being) and waited for MIL to bring the children home. They overwhelm me.

Sorry that was so long, it just spilled out. If you're still with me, thank you.

Cherry
That's a very typical scenario and something I think many of us can say "I've been there".
Unfortunately, I feel responsible for the feelings of everyone around me, and I'm really struggling to shake that off.
Co-dependency is very common in children of alcoholics. (I think I remember you said they were heavy drinkers?) Have you read Co-Dependant No More by Melody Beattie?

Unfortunately, I feel responsible for the feelings of everyone around me, and I'm really struggling to shake that off.

I'm the child of an almost certainly narcissist mother and a (now dead) alcoholic father. I think co-dependency could have been my middle name most of my life....

Do your parents have to be alcoholic to be co-dependent?
Dad used to makes us walk on eggshells most days. He had a temper and when tired he used to get so angry that he broke doors and various things around the house. He say: 'Who is the cunt that did...? and to DM : 'why can't you tell your children to stay out of my toolbox?' We used to go and hide, it was terrifying. But he never raised a finger on us, so I thought it was ok. DM would tell him how bad his behaviour was. He would apologise for shouting. Dm would confide in me when I was 12 telling me how horrible it was to live with him.
My relationship with DM is not best. I was never good enough. She never supported me when I was bullied at school, partly as she cut my hair really short after one head lice episode and made me wear really old fashion clothes. When my hair was long or I wore short skirt that were not so short she said I looked like a whore.
She condemned my divorce despite the fact that it was an EA relationship...
I wrote about her last comment on DD 'looking like a whore'. Family gathering are usually really fun and Dcs love going to their DGPs. But counsellor said that DM is a definite factor in my depression. I am not contacting her often. She says I 'have to' call her as otherwise I make her feel unwelcomed. Conversation must be more than 1h otherwise she will say we did not have time to talk and usually she does says one thing that really upsets me. Last time she said my DP had upset my DD's sense of beauty. I just can't manage to put the phone down on her.

It's very common in children of alcholics and was first coined to describe partners of alcoholics, but it's not limited to those in relationships with people who abuse alcohol.
In fact, I would say my codependent behaviours are as much related to my relationship with my mother as with my father, more in fact.
this
is a good article about it

Cherry Blossom I am very impressed with how well you are protecting and looking after yourself and your family despite the attempts at enormous guilt trips.

Amazing how they are literally trying to force through your boundaries such as walking straight into your home uninvited and after you clearly told them you did not have time that day.

They are so used to ignoring you and minimizing their behaviour.

Hi everybody. I've been lurking for a while and decided to do a name change so I can actually post so hope it's okay just to plonk myself in!

I was just wondering really if anyone has found that it was a really small thing that finally made it all too much? I've been used to being the scapegoat for a long long time now. Nothing extreme just little things with the occasional bigger thing. But it's like something has clicked inside of me that I don't have to put up with even the little things just because they are little if that makes sense?

I don't know if Im making sense. It's like having an epiphany about it all this week and it's made me all muddled! Like things from my childhood that I just assumed were normal are cycling in my head now and I see that they aren't really that great. And then differences between how my siblings and I are/were treated are just glaringly obvious. It's being together for Xmas this week that's done it I suppose! Watching how they all were with my child too and seeing how my siblings especially treat my child as a bit of a joke has made me sad. My child looked so confused and I just sat there and did nothing :( Looking back through photos of another time we visited, I was snapping away as they all played and now I can see them sort of making fun of her and her gradual confusion in those pictures. It's very strange and I feel so bad for her :(

But then part of me is reminding me of the good times we all have, the thoughtful Xmas presents, the help they've given us in the past and it's making me feel so guilty to be thinking these things and worrying it's in my head after all and maybe I'm the problem! Ugh. Confusing!

Hi Lily. I think sometimes the scales can just fall from your eyes, yes. And then you can't unsee things. Do you see them a lot? can you cut contact back easily? By the way, even horrible people can be nice sometimes. My mum can belovely but she is also a horrible, bitter, vindictive, nasty old woman. The good bits for me weren't worth the crap.

lily it's really really hard to quietly withdraw but look again at the confusion on your child's face. How long is it going to be before that confusion is accompanied by hurt?

whether this is redeemable depends on one thing: If you tell them how you see things and how you feel, will they listen and treat that respectfully, or will they tell you that you are being oversensitive and quietly mock you?

If the former, if their treatment is down to thoughtlessness and habit and if they will try to change, then it's worth trying.

If they will dismiss everything you say and not make (real) attempts to change, lower the contact. They are your family; you love them; it's very hard to quietly withdraw; but your daughter needs your protection. Being put down by them laughing at you and treating you differently - and now your lovely little girl - is not okay and you'll feel 100 times better for being around it less, even though in another way it hurts.

how to do it - begin to ring them less, then slowly much less. . Slowly delay answering emails or SMS longer and longer. Put less about yourself on facebook. Phase out information. If they ask if they can call round, be busy; if they just turn up, start being on the verge of going out. Quietly withdraw. if they ask what's going, answer that there's nothing going on, everything is fine. Answer questions with fluff, tell them less about yourself. Put up a wall of mist they'll have trouble getting through. It can be a lot, lot easier doing it this way than in a giant argument. You can also control how much contact you have with them much better like this.

Your lovely little girl deserves better than being the butt of their subtle, meanspirited humour. So do you. If they can change, great. if not .... slip away

lily

Its not you, its them.

Abusers can do nice and nasty very well but it is a continuous cycle.

People from dysfunctional families end up playing roles, you are the scapegoat for their inherent ills. It therefore follows that any of your children will be scapegoated as well.

Fear, obligation and guilt are but three of many damaging legacies such toxic parents leave their now adult children and families.

I would also think that any "help" that they have given you has been conditional and not without price or strings attached.

Lily I went NC after a comment from my mother that would have seemed fairly innocuous to anyone else. In my case, I think my tolerance for her bullshit went way down when I had my kids but it took a while for her to do anything that set the alarm bell ringing. I just found I was tired and disgusted by it all and NC almost happened automatically because I couldn't stomach talking to her.

lily How sad for your daughter, and for you to see you family's treatment of you reflected in their interactions with your daughter. It's a wonder that we become so used to the little things that are levied at us that we barely notice them. When the same behaviour is observed towards DCs we see how damaging and unacceptable it is.

My DM can also be lovely, great company and generous. She can also be wicked and self centred. It's so much a part of her behaviour that she doesn't recognise how hurtful even the little things are. Do you think your family know what they're doing, and as onceameer said, are they receptive to listening to you and changing their ways?

Pocket - no, they are not drinkers. But I have always been afraid of them. They remind me of the mother in 'drop dead fred'. I was never allowed an identity of my own. Friendships outside of the family were discouraged, if not obliterated by my mum's behaviour. I had to wear my hair a certain way, which I hated, and only clothing that she had picked out for me. If I dared to object, they would both be furious. I wasn't allowed the same freedom as my peers. My opinion was forbidden. So many upsetting images are coming back to me recently.

Thanks Good, going to have a look at that article.

Francis, thank you - I worry often that I am failing miserably in the self and family protection stakes as I can't seem to stop them. It keeps me awake at night so I really appreciate your comments.

Lily, I can relate. It's a confusing and hard place to be. My main goal in life now is to be the mother to my children that I longed for. To be open, loving, affectionate, trustworthy and safe. It's a hard journey but I believe ultimately worth it.

Toomuchtooold I had a look at the site interesting and scary at the same time recognised some of the phrases used by estranged parents as ones my family have/would use. Particularly the type of thing the title of this thread refers to ‘but...you never went without’ meaning we didn't starve/have holes in shoes etc as if that's a great thing! Yes its important but there's more to parenting than providing food clothes and shelter. Isn't there? ‘Abusers don't care at all’ but as we know from dv too abusers aren't bad all the time or people wouldn't put up with them at all!

Serioussteve a belated happy birthday and sorry you're having to deal with that. Hope the therapy is helpful.

Mampam that was truly a spiteful thing to do to children.

“Narcissists are truly crap gift givers.” Yes! And its not about cost it's (lack of) thought. I've rarely received gifts I like unless they happened to be the same as my sister liked.

Tootired sorry you are feeling down. That's an incredibly difficult time you've been through. My father also a violent drunk but I think all too often the addiction is blamed when they were horrible people before that! Addiction, especially as it's seen as an ‘illness’ now and therefore allows addicts to blame the addiction rather than look closer or admit there were problems before the addiction took hold. I have to say I agree that this is not someone that makes a good grandmother but I know how difficult that decision is to make.

I also agree that labels are only needed if they're useful in terms of making things better. Plus no illness or diagnosis is ever neat and perfect that's not even true of flu!

Eternal I know it's shit them meeting without you, try and focus on the fact that if you had gone you and dd would be dealing with some amount of fallout? And hope your dd had a lovely birthday.

Totally agree with this

“'You've really upset your mother'
Heh. I'm guessing on most people's list of "Top Ten Things Abusive Parents Say" this one would be pretty high up. It's like the gift that keeps on giving - the abuser can pretend that not only are they the wounded party but they are only mentioning it out of concern for the other parent.

Cunts.”

That sounds a horrific situation not only for you cherryblossom but that little boy too. Sounds like you have a good counsellor which is worth its weight in gold alone.

Lily I think a lot of us can relate to that one domino setting off the whole line of thoughts of “oh and there was the time they did x y z” especially when we become parents and they start that shit on our kids! That was a trigger for me certainly.

“This is the toughest time of the year for stately homers, but we're over the bulk of it now, and perhaps along the way we can take advantage of the new year to increase our determination and resolution to enjoy life and only spend it with those who make us feel valued and wanted.” Very true and very well put hissy.

I've just finished reading the article about codepency. Someone crawled into my head, wrote a load of stuff down, and that was the result...I am way more messed up than I thought Still, almost new year, a blank canvas and all that.

Cherry, I saw your post from yesterday and been trying to reply all day. Your panicked reaction to standing up to your mum is characteristic of someone who's been emotionally abused. Conflict is extremely difficult for many of us, and never more so than with the people who have, since you were a small child, given abuse where loving attention was needed. That's what no contact is for. You don't have to confront them so you don't have to feel the fear, and you don't see them so you have the best chance of breaking the cycle of codependency and seeing them once as not your problem.

Hi Lily, I'm really struggling with the same thing atm. My mother hasn't done anything too terrible this time but it's just one more piece of evidence that she doesn't give a shit about me and is not willing to even consider any perspective that differs from hers. I'm awaiting the flying monkeys with baited breath because I honestly don't know what to say to them but I can't face speaking to her for now.

How awful that they are affecting your child too! Imo having an abusive or neglectful upbringing can make people more sensitive to their children's needs because we can see the early warning signs and know how it feels so it can look to others like an overreaction when we step in to protect our children.

Lily and others facing the "last straw" issue, IME it's always the small thing that tips the balance.

Whether it's an abusive partner or a toxic parent often we ae so conditioned to accept the big stuff that we don't notice it. The small stuff is at times way more hurtful as it shows to what effort they will go to hurt us.

My mother made my son wear clothes that were visibly too tight for him. He asked to change 3 times. She told him it would hurt his feelings if she did.

I fecking sold those clothes on eBay the next week. She never had him in her house again. Did I say anything? No. She'd have denied it.

My ex killed a plant I had. Sounds silly but it was the nastiest thing he did somehow because he killed it because I liked it. A plant.

Thank you for your replies! It's definitely made me feel less like it was all in my head. The small stuff showing the effort they will go to explains it so well too! The plant :(

I've decided to definitely take the advice on board to slowly slowly distance myself. I did think about talking to them about it but from past experiences I know it will be typical of some of the responses in the very first post. Lots of it being in my head, they don't remember that etc etc so I think it would be a lost cause :( Your so right about my dd needing protection and I am going to protect her. It'll be hard because of how intertwined our lives are atm but that can be changed with time I hope.

It's so strange realising all this. I did some more reading last night and its like I'm understanding so much more of why I'm the way I am. I've been waiting to hear back about an appointment for an ASD assessment and was utterly convinced that was the issue for me but now I'm reading about how a childhood like that can affect you as an adult, I'm realising that actually the reason I can't socialise or struggle with eye contact and talking to people generally is that I've had several decades of being taught that I'm not worth listening to. If your family don't care what you have to say why would anyone else type stuff.

Honestly I'm so glad I've found this thread! I feel like such positive change is coming :)

Thank you toomuch. I'm gaining strength and feel determined.

Happy new year to all on this thread!

Good evening everyone, and welcome to Lily and all the new folk on the thread. Hope everyone is seeing the light dawning on their dysfunctional relationships with their relatives. It's good to see so many standing up to their hurtful rellies.

BTW, I just want to wish you all a very happy New Year and hope that 2016 is so much better for you all

I hope you don't mind me introducing a bit of music therapy and ask you to listen to Hail to the King album by Avenged Sevenfold. It has a few crackin' songs on it but for PA, narcissistic relatives who are emotionally and mentally draining, A7X's song This Means War is great. It gets me up and gets me head-banging, like I'm in a mosh pit at a rock concert . It helps me resolve to ensure that any nasty rellies get a few home truths given to them with all ammo. They don't like me anyway, so it's no loss By dong that, I'll ensure that they never speak to me again..............Peace at last

Anyway, how is everyone? It's been a long time since I've been on here, so I've missed a fair bit. I hope everyone is gathering the energy to stay strong against the tide of abuse you're given from your relatives.

Checking out that track Chiggers... think I've heard my son playing this

It's been a blissfully quiet xmas and new year for me with no unwanted contact attempts of any sort. Sad in its own way of course - but mainly a relief.

Hope I can join - have very recently decided to reduce contact with my mum and reading through this thread has been incredibly helpful and motivational. Lily it sounds as though we are at a similar point. I'm finding myself feeling a lot better with less anxiety one second, and then all of a sudden absolutely full of guilt, that im overreacting and disrupting the status quo, and then sadness that I am part of a family in which this is necessary.

There are so many points others have made on here that I can identify with. The reaction of others is so difficult and I find Christmas and Mothers Day so hard, when it's like a constant reminder of what you don't have.

I find it so difficult as think I spent half my life convincing myself there was no issue so that I wouldn't actually have to face being in this situation. I still wonder whether it is actually me that's the issue, whether im creating drama. The difficulty is as well that because a lot of my mums problems are due to alcohol, there are times when she has been great and when she is sober she is generally fine, so I feel guilty that im having to reduce contact with sober mum to protect myself from drunk mum. I'm not sure if that's selfish of me.

There are certainly links to grief - I get very upset about what I feel I have lost. Recently I went to see Star Wars and a quote struck me; 'the belonging you seek is not behind you, it is ahead'.

This helps me to deal with the loss to some extent, but I still find the pain of it all so overwhelming at times. It feels like a life sentence that I never asked for.

BTL,

Welcome.

The FOG (fear, obligation and guilt) are but three of many damaging legacies adult children of toxic parents live with. IIRC Toxic Parents by Susan Forward has a chapter in it about alcoholic parents; if you have not already read this book this could be a good starting point for you.

Many adult children of parents who are alcoholics have problems with co-dependency:-

psychcentral.com/lib/symptoms-of-codependency/

The link above may well help you further, it is not at all selfish of you to reduce contact with your mother. You have to protect yourself and you cannot help anyone who does not want to be helped or saved.

It is not your fault your mother is the ways she is; you did not make her that way. The 3cs re alcoholism are that you did not cause it, you cannot control it and you cannot cure it.

I would also consider telephoning NACOA as they could be helpful to you as well:-
www.nacoa.org.uk/

DH phone DM while I was at work today so the DCs could thank her for the Argos vouchers she sent for Christmas 😡

DM and her new bf have bought a camper an and would like to travel down to take the DCs out for the day. WTAF?