"But we took you to Stately Homes!" Survivors of Dysfunctional Families

[OnceAMeerNotAlwaysAMeer]

It's November '15, and the Stately Home is still open to visitors.

Forerunning threads:
December 2007
March 2008
August 2008
February 2009
May 2009
January 2010
April 2010
August 2010
March 2011
November 2011
January 2012
November 2012
January 2013
March 2013
August 2013
December 2013
February 2014
April 2014
July 2014
Oct 14 – Dec 14
Dec 14 – March 15
March - Nov 2015

Welcome to the Stately Homes Thread.

This is a long running thread which was originally started up by 'pages' see original thread here (December 2007)

So this thread originates from that thread and has become a safe haven for Adult children of abusive families.

One thing you will never hear on this thread is that your abuse or experience was not that bad. You will never have your feelings minimised the way they were when you were a child, or now that you are an adult. To coin the phrase of a much respected past poster Ally90;

'Nobody can judge how sad your childhood made you, even if you wrote a novel on it, only you know that. I can well imagine any of us saying some of the seemingly trivial things our parents/ siblings did to us to many of our real life acquaintances and them not understanding why we were upset/ angry/ hurt etc. And that is why this thread is here. It's a safe place to vent our true feelings, validate our childhood/ lifetime experiences of being hurt/ angry etc by our parents behaviour and to get support for dealing with family in the here and now.'

Most new posters generally start off their posts by saying; but it wasn't that bad for me or my experience wasn't as awful as x,y or z's.

Some on here have been emotionally abused and/ or physically abused. Some are not sure what category (there doesn't have to be any) they fall into.

NONE of that matters. What matters is how 'YOU' felt growing up, how 'YOU' feel now and a chance to talk about how and why those childhood experiences and/ or current parental contact, has left you feeling damaged, falling apart from the inside out and stumbling around trying to find your sense of self-worth.

You might also find the following links and information useful, if you have come this far and are still not sure whether you belong here or not.

'Toxic Parents' by Susan Forward.

I started with this book and found it really useful.

Here are some excerpts:

"Once you get going, most toxic parents will counterattack. After all, if they had the capacity to listen, to hear, to be reasonable, to respect your feelings, and to promote your independence, they wouldn't be toxic parents. They will probably perceive your words as treacherous personal assaults. They will tend to fall back on the same tactics and defences that they have always used, only more so.

Remember, the important thing is not their reaction but your response. If you can stand fast in the face of your parents' fury, accusations, threats and guilt-peddling, you will experience your finest hour.

Here are some typical parental reactions to confrontation:

"It never happened". Parents who have used denial to avoid their own feelings of inadequacy or anxiety, will undoubtedly use it during confrontation, to promote their version of reality. They'll insist that your allegations never happened, or that you're exaggerating. They won't remember, or they will accuse you of lying.

YOUR RESPONSE: Just because you don't remember, doesn't mean it didn't happen".

"It was your fault." Toxic parents are almost never willing to accept responsibility for their destructive behaviour. Instead, they will blame you. They will say that you were bad, or that you were difficult. They will claim that they did the best that they could but that you always created problems for them. They will say that you drove them crazy. They will offer as proof, the fact that everybody in the family knew what a problem you were. They will offer up a laundry list of your alleged offences against them.

YOUR RESPONSE: "You can keep trying to make this my fault, but I'm not going to accept the responsibility for what you did to me, when I was a child".

"I said I was sorry what more do you want?" Some parents may acknowledge a few of the things that you say but be unwilling to do anything about it.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate your apology, but that is just a beginning. If you're truly sorry, you'll work through this with me, to make a better relationship."

"We did the best we could." Some parents will remind you of how tough they had it while you were growing up and how hard they struggled. They will say such things as "You'll never understand what I was going through," or "I did the best I could". This particular style of response will often stir up a lot of sympathy and compassion for your parents. This is understandable, but it makes it difficult for you to remain focused on what you need to say in your confrontation. The temptation is for you once again to put their needs ahead of your own. It is important that you be able to acknowledge their difficulties, without invalidating your own.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I understand that you had a hard time, and I'm sure that you didn't hurt me on purpose, but I need you to understand that the way you dealt with your problems really did hurt me"

"Look what we did for you." Many parents will attempt to counter your assertions by recalling the wonderful times you had as a child and the loving moments you and they shared. By focusing on the good things, they can avoid looking at the darker side of their behaviour. Parents will typically remind you of gifts they gave you, places they took you, sacrifices they made for you, and thoughtful things they did. They will say things like, "this is the thanks we get" or "nothing was ever enough for you."

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate those things very much, but they didn't make up for ...."

"How can you do this to me?" Some parents act like martyrs. They'll collapse into tears, wring their hands, and express shock and disbelief at your "cruelty". They will act as if your confrontation has victimized them. They will accuse you of hurting them, or disappointing them. They will complain that they don't need this, they have enough problems. They will tell you that they are not strong enough or healthy enough to take this, that the heartache will kill them. Some of their sadness will, of course, be genuine. It is sad for parents to face their own shortcomings, to realise that they have caused their children significant pain. But their sadness can also be manipulative and controlling. It is their way of using guilt to try to make you back down from the confrontation.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I'm sorry you're upset. I'm sorry you're hurt. But I'm not willing to give up on this. I've been hurting for a long time, too."

Helpful Websites

Alice Miller

Personality Disorders definition

More helpful links:

Daughters of narcissistic mothers
Out of the FOG
You carry the cure in your own heart
Help for adult children of child abuse
Pete Walker

Some books:

Homecoming
Will I ever be good enough?
If you had controlling parents
When you and your mother can't be friends
Children of the self-absorbed
Recovery of your inner child

This final quote is from smithfield posting as therealsmithfield:

"I'm sure the other posters will be along shortly to add anything they feel I have left out. I personally don't claim to be sorted but I will say my head has become a helluva lot straighter since I started posting here. You will receive a lot of wisdom but above all else the insights and advice given will 'always' be delivered with warmth and support."

I'm so sad right now. Two days of my narcissistic mother on my back, again clearly favouring my brother openly, again insinuating I should have been a girl. It took until 8pm tonight for her to wish me happy birthday.

Just so sad, and feel so empty. Just needed to write it somewhere, therapy should start Jan/Feb...

Mampam that is such a horrible thing. It's almost laughable though at the same time, when you see the lengths these people will go to to make trouble when they realise that their power is gone and nobody is scared of them any more.

Serioissteve, happy birthday! Sorry it's only the virtual kind... Hope you're out of there by now.

serioussteve insinuating that you should have been a girl? Does she not quite get the fact that it's not down to her? That it is what it is when it comes to gender?

You may not be a girl mate, but bless her, your mother certainly is a complete dick!

Draw the line you know you must. Don't allow her space in your life to hurt you.

mampam,

Charity shop all their "gifts" which were never sent without any obligation or other conditions attached to them anyway. That way someone else gets the use of them and you do not have to return them or keep them in your home.

You are right; returning them would be contact and thus giving them what they want; a reaction or contact from you. Maintain radio silence and make no acknowledgment.

I would also seek legal advice about keeping your ILs away from your home.

serious steve

Make next Christmas a different sort of one for you. Do something else like travel or volunteer at a shelter. I sincerely hope that your therapist is highly experienced in narcissistic family structures because you have been and are well enmeshed in one of those. Being the scapegoat in such a family of origin is actually a "better" position for you to be in because as you know its wrong you can choose to escape it; the golden child role is one not without price but the golden child is often unaware of the price to be paid.

I have previously found this website to be useful when it comes to narcissists so have posted it up for you to read www.halcyon.com/jmashmun/npd/traits.html

And for her to say that you should have been a girl - she is a piece of work isn't she?.

You certainly need to work with someone who has NO bias about keeping families together. Also it is not possible to have any sort of a relationship with a narcissist.

Do you think you will be able to completely break away from these awful people; you can live a good life without them in it.

Ooooh I got a M & S voucher from the MIL yesterday. DH and DS got a DVD each from Amazon which they had themselves requested. I was badgered (I think the same amount got spent on us all but she in turn received a far more expensive bag and purse from DH that will be hardly ever used. Think its going to be used for "best" whatever the hell that is).

Value - £10. I asked her for a voucher because that would benefit us all in terms of food shopping, that is what I was going to use it for. Not for me and me alone. Mean with money as well as mean with love eh. I would not mind if she did not have two halfpennies to rub together but she is ok for a few bob. Narcissists are truly crap gift givers.

She took her slipper off and put her foot on top of it. She then asked us if it was ok for her to do that. Heard far TMI about her foot corn on her little toe(!!); that is all self inflicted on her part in my opinion because she wears too tight surgical stockings that she should have stopped wearing many years ago. She performed a limp for DHs benefit but when I saw her walk into our home she was fine and not limping at all!.

Why do these morons talk health issues; it seems to be a characteristic of such dysfunctional types. She has no opinion on anything either so you cannot discuss current affairs with her or anything like that.

She did mention her late DH, well in passing anyway, (theirs was not a happy marriage at all, more like a dysfunctional one based on co-dependency) but I got the distinct impression again that it was all about her and how she appeared to other people. He was never into the family aspects of Christmas or infact anything that did not give his own self approval and admiration from others; his main focus at that time was getting fed. She still ate her turkey at home last year with her freeloader of an arse other son and used other people or taxis to take her to the hospital. She gave the hospital staff the impression that because she was on her own (not true) and needed three buses to get to the hospital (not correct either) then she should be allowed to go onto the ward an hour earlier. She got what she wanted.

Her joint card only written by her (we used to receive separate Christmas cards for many years till I ranted and raved at DH one day) was a generic sort which stated happy Christmas on it; none of this to my son and his wife stuff.

Was thoroughly glad to see the back of her; next Christmas the Meerkats are going to Florida!. She can bugger right off!!. As for me well I will continue my very low and almost now non existent contact stance with her.

I was badgered by DH to tell her what to get me for Christmas. Seeing as I did not want a DVD or some such item I suggested a voucher. Also she would have to go out to buy it so make some effort, albeit a token effort, rather than do a few taps on her blooming ipad to amazon.

Mampam that's shit behaviour. If they are nice presents I'd give them to charity or a refuge. I wouldn't worry about encouraging them y not giving them back or rfusing to accept them, with people like this you can't win so it's best to do what's easiest for you.
The leaving out DC1 is just awful.
It reminds me a bit of my mother once we started NC, turning up drunk with sacks of stuff - a doll's house and trinkets (some of which I'd given her as presents) and dumping them on the doorstep. We were hiding inside and didn't answer the door. She thought we out and just left the stuff there on the doorstep in the street.
Then she claimed that she had left them for us as they were precious things she wanted to children to have doesn't quite explain why she left them in the street when she thought we had gone away

I don't know if I belong on this thread. I've lurked for a while and posted under a different name (that no longer suits me) and been horrified by some of your experiences. I'm damaged, hurt and confused by the behaviour of my DM over the years, but she doesn't fit neatly into the 'narcissist' category. I'm currently NC and feeling very down

Welcome tootired sorry you are feeling down. My mother doesn't really fit in the narcissist category either but she has hurt me so much. No one is going to tell you you don't belong her. Can you tell us a bit more about what's going on?

Here not her sorry for my crappy hungover spelling!

None of my estranged weirdo " family " fitted into the Narcissist category either, which seems to be the most common term bandied about on here.

How long have you been NC? And does it not feel better for having done this? Yes...you can still be a very toxic, dysfunctional arsehole without having a label.

Can I help at all tootired?. What has this woman done to you now?.

So sorry you are feeling down

My own parents are not narcissistic in nature but give the word disinterested a whole new level of meaning.

I hope it's ok to butt in. I often visit this thread and can relate to some of it, not the worst examples though. I thought I didn't have any issues now both my parents are dead, but I've had to go NC with my brother.

My parents went to live in America when I was 19, my brother was 16, didn't want to go but had to. We hardly saw each other after that, but when we did we were friendly and shared stories about our childhood, giving us both a bit more understanding of what went on. We've also both had therapy which helped too.

My father died young, she came back to UK and I went NC with her for a few years, relenting because she was my daughters' only grandparent. Then she started treating them badly, favouritism, blaming, sudden bursts of temper, same old same old, so I distanced us without full NC.

After they were grown up, my life changed and I wasn't around much, so managed the relationship reasonably well, although still being treated as if I was about 10. In all this time my brother was still living in America and had very little contact with either of us.

Then my mother died, my brother came over for the funeral and stayed a couple of weeks, our relationship seemed fine then. But a few years later (and we're now 68 and 71!) he sent me a really abusive email, accusing me of being just like her and ruining his life. I tried to get to the bottom of it, turned the other cheek but that just invited more and worse, so now I just ignore the occasional rant. I assume he needs somebody else to blame for the way his life's turned out.

It's been easier for me to go NC than it is for many people on this thread, for which I'm grateful, but I'm still a bit sad that I've lost all my birth family.

I'm sorry misguided, that your DB has turned on you after so many years of family dysfunction. The whole 'blood is thicker than water' runs deep and it is sad when there's no blood relatives to connect with

As for my story - This might be long and ranty. I'll start with the most recent atrocity then go back in history to contextualise (and vent!).

About 9 months ago I received a text from DS. It was the most vile and hateful message e.g. 'you're a fat bitch, you have no friends' etc. I knew instantly that it was a text that DM had sent to DS and she was forwarding it to me so that I could see what was still going on. DS was so hurt and I was gutted for her. I live some distance away and although family relations had been very difficult in the past, they had improved in recent years and it seemed that DM was gaining some perspective since she had distanced herself from her abusive DM. How wrong I was... DS didn't want to confront DM about it and didn't want me to say anything but I couldn't 'unsee' the vitriol & pretend I didn't know. Nor was I brave enough to speak to her directly so I text to say that I knew about the text and I was disgusted. Predictably, an angry and abusive text came back saying that DS says horrible things too and it's none of my business. I took that as my cue for NC and it has been that way for 9 months. I have 2 DC and have found Christmas really hard this year.

As far back as I can remember, DM was unstable. She would drink and argue with DSD1 (DS dad. My bio father was never in my life), including some violence towards him. I remember from around age 6 she would come into my bed at night (drunk), crying about her awful childhood and abusive mother who singled her out. DS and I went to dance lessons, learned instruments and had the opportunities that she wished she'd had as a child. DM worked hard, presenting as successful and upwardly mobile, but beneath the veneer she was unpredictable and sometimes downright scary.

We moved house several times. I attended 3 primary schools and 3 high schools in total. DS attended more as she's younger and the disruptions continued after I left home at 16. We were never allowed to say goodbye to our friends or have closure because it was no one elses business. To this day, I struggle with appropriate endings. An acrimonious divorce, which left me feeling completely worthless and suicidal at age 10-11 followed. I didn't attempt suicide but I did cut myself superficially. I was too afraid of telling anybody about how I was feeling in case I was accused of attention seeking. DM was remarried within a year to a bully who terrorised us for a further 6 years until we got away to a DV refuge.

During those years with DSD2 DM was a wreck, drank a lot, attempted suicide. I was a teenager and acted out. At home I refused to be dominated by DSD2 and fought! Constantly! Outside the home I drank from the age of 13, used drugs, slept with anyone who showed interest in me. DM threw me out at age 16. I wouldn't appease DSD2 and she couldn't cope with the fighting. At age 17 I contacted Women's Aid who helped DM and DS to get away from DSD2. We were rehoused in a council maisonette in a rough area. For me it brought peace of mind. For DM it brought shame. DS and I were traumatised by the whole experience, yet DM wouldn't allow us to access counselling. None of their business!

DM soon had a boyfriend - I would hear them in the next bedroom. The boyfriend after him turned out to be DSD3, although I'd moved out by then and gone travelling. Predictably, the marriage failed - he was a fantasist whose life was a complete fabrication. He was also jealous and abusive. DM left him for his best friend. When I returned from living abroad, having had a breakdown and serious suicide attempt, DM beat me up as I lay in bed.

Determined to get my life on track I enrolled in further education and had some counselling. I went on to university and provided refuge for DM when DSD3's best friend (DSD3bf) turned out to be violent too. She moved near to me and we started to rebuild our relationship. DSD3bf continued supporting her financially, and as ever, she continued to believe it was her right to extract as much money as she could from the arrangement. Predictably they bought a house together in my uni town. By this time I had met DH and we had DD. Despite DSD3bf still being on the scene, DM was more relaxed and settled than I'd ever seen her. She developed health problems directly related to the physical trauma sustained when attacked by DSD2/DSD3/DSD3bf, but and was more concerned about how her disability made her appear than adapting her lifestyle.

Fast forward a few years, DH and I moved our family to another part of the country for his job. DM came to visit for a weekend. I had recently come off anti-depressants and had DD(6) and DS(2). DM wanted to buy DD a bike. I wasn't entirely happy about it because she showed favouritism towards me over DS as children, but I didn't want to deprive DD of a shiny new bike either. DS had a tantrum in the shop and I was gently talking him down. DM was getting flustered and told me to help put the bike in the car. I asked her to just stay with DS until I got back. Moments later she'd manhandled my child out of the shop while he cried hysterically. I cried on the drive home. How dare she touch my child! Unable to talk I went upstairs and cried myself to sleep, leaving DH in charge. That evening DH and I had a rare evening out planned as DM could babysit. The atmosphere in the house was awful and reluctantly I went out. We were back early and everyone was in bed. When we got up the next morning, I realised that DM had left in the night. Her pyjamas were under her pillow so she'd gone to bed in her clothes! How bloody weird! Shed been telling my DH about how snappy and unreasonable I'd been. He sympathised with her (grrrrr) as yes, I can be moody and snappy sometimes. In the following weeks I phoned and apologised for not having more patience in the shop etc etc etc. That was the end of that until the latest incident with DS above. It turns out that the vicious text to DS happened shortly after she and DSD3bf separated. I believe she had a new bf within a couple of weeks!

DM has tried again to talk to my DH about me speaking out of turn and making me out to be a bit of a loose canon, but DH has seen the more sinister side of her now and put her straight. DD in particular was close to her GM and misses her sometimes. I've told her that GM said some mean things and I don't want to talk to her. The DC have phoned her to say thank you for birthday presents she posted, but otherwise it's been NC. DM sent DH and I a Christmas present and I don't know what to do with it. I feel sorry for the vacuous soul she is and I feel sad that my mother's shame is greater than the love she has for me.

Would take the so called gift from your mother to the Charity shop, a gift which is loaded with obligation in any case. Do not acknowledge it or keep it in your home.

Do your DC actually still want to talk to their grandmother or does this come mainly from you in that this is your own fear, obligation and guilt being in play here. Given her behaviours towards you over the years she is not a good grandparent figure for them to have in their lives in any shape or form. She was not a good parent to you thus she is not the sort of grandparent they should be having.

Bloody hell tootired, that sounds like an incredibly difficult environment to grow up in.
A drive by armchair diagnosis of your mother: borderline personality disorder? I'm not sure it matters what you call it though, your childhood was clearly emotionally abusive.
You said you were feeling low. Has something happened recently? Or just the time of year?

I wouldn't worry too much about whether parents fall into classic or specific personality traits and disorders as quite often they are a mix of more than one. Toxic parents will more than likely have definite mental health issues that will never be diagnosed in their lifetimes.

My own mother is a definite Narcissist yet my aunt, her sister, is convinced she has Borderline Personality Disorder. I wonder if my mothers behaviour towards my aunt is different from her behaviour towards me and my siblings?

FIL is a definite Narc and just lately DH and I have realised that he also has many Psychopathic traits too whereas MIL is so unhinged that she certainly does not fit into one defining category.

Abusive behaviour is abusive behaviour......it really doesn't need to have a name other than that.

DH and I have decided to give the presents to charity.

Atilla I can identify with the mean and crappy gifts. My mother was the same as were the ILs. I'll give my mother one thing, she always seemed to like our gifts that we had given to her whereas MIL just used to look at them as if she had just unwrapped a dog poo.

And the health issues!!! I tell you I will not miss those. The trouble with the IL's was that other than us their nearest family are 300 miles away and when they only used to see them for a couple of days per year it is very easy to convince those family members over the phone that their health issues were far worse than they actually were.

My own mother would always pretend to be far worse than she ever was too. She would literally be up and about when ill all day long and when it got to about 5 minutes before my SF was due home from work she would go and get in bed. When he walked through the door she would start groaning as if in agony!!!

I just want to say thank you for this thread. I've been lurking here for years under various names. Mother showed her narcissistic true colours today and yesterday and I would actually think I was going mad or that it was just me if it wasn't for you guys. I could have written a script for her reactions when I stood up to her (on behalf of my young child).

There's definitely something about this time of year! How did it feel to actually stand up to her theicecream?

I was thinking about returning the presents with a note explicitly determining NC. Bad idea?

The self doubt gets under the skin. Years of being told I'm overly emotional and things didn't happen makes me doubt myself and think it wasn't that bad. It wasn't ALL bad. She says she did her best and everything she did was misguidedly intended to make life better for us. Does NC get easier?

tootired,

re your comment:-
"I was thinking about returning the presents with a note explicitly determining NC. Bad idea?"

Would not at all acknowledge the presents; give them to a charity shop them instead. Writing to her may well set you up to receive a further diatribe of abuse. Your very reasoned letter could be twisted and used by her against you; toxic people commonly lie about the contents of no contact letters.

This may be useful to you re going no contact:-
www.lightshouse.org/how-to-go-no-contact.html#axzz3vYnzixXp

That's a really useful guide AttilaTheMeerkat. I've read it several times now, helps so much to have a clear plan.

I, finally, went NC with my toxic family member yesterday. Should've done it years ago but fear of people not understanding and labelling me as the 'difficult one' kept me hanging on. Yesterday they did something inexcusable, which was mercifully witnessed by several people, and whilst it wasn't directed at me it most definitely brought things to an end as far was wanting anything to do with that person or worrying about what others think. All those niggling doubts - gone.

How do you all manage being invited to family events where the people you are NC will be? My father and his bitch of a GF will be at a family birthday party in January and we'd love to go but don't fancy having the awkwardness of them being there. I know his poisonous bitch will say something just to start everything off again, light the touch paper just to make out to everyone I'm the bad person.
On the other hand I don't want to give them the satisfaction of thinking we haven't gone because of them.

On the other hand I don't want to give them the satisfaction of thinking we haven't gone because of them

don't get drawn into the winning/losing game. If your dad's with a wrongun and hasn't dumped her, you've already lost. Don't get drawn in. whether she crows or not doesn't matter.

You enjoy your day; plan something nice instead, something a bit special. Arrange to see okay family members for separate, relaxed visits. You're always going to get farmyard hens who want to scratch the dirt and peck at others; it's sad that one has latched onto your dad and that your dad hasn't stood up to her, but that is the case. Arrange other things instead, mourn your dad if you need to, but he has made his choice.