"But we took you to Stately Homes!" Survivors of Dysfunctional Families

[OnceAMeerNotAlwaysAMeer]

It's November '15, and the Stately Home is still open to visitors.

Forerunning threads:
December 2007
March 2008
August 2008
February 2009
May 2009
January 2010
April 2010
August 2010
March 2011
November 2011
January 2012
November 2012
January 2013
March 2013
August 2013
December 2013
February 2014
April 2014
July 2014
Oct 14 – Dec 14
Dec 14 – March 15
March - Nov 2015

Welcome to the Stately Homes Thread.

This is a long running thread which was originally started up by 'pages' see original thread here (December 2007)

So this thread originates from that thread and has become a safe haven for Adult children of abusive families.

One thing you will never hear on this thread is that your abuse or experience was not that bad. You will never have your feelings minimised the way they were when you were a child, or now that you are an adult. To coin the phrase of a much respected past poster Ally90;

'Nobody can judge how sad your childhood made you, even if you wrote a novel on it, only you know that. I can well imagine any of us saying some of the seemingly trivial things our parents/ siblings did to us to many of our real life acquaintances and them not understanding why we were upset/ angry/ hurt etc. And that is why this thread is here. It's a safe place to vent our true feelings, validate our childhood/ lifetime experiences of being hurt/ angry etc by our parents behaviour and to get support for dealing with family in the here and now.'

Most new posters generally start off their posts by saying; but it wasn't that bad for me or my experience wasn't as awful as x,y or z's.

Some on here have been emotionally abused and/ or physically abused. Some are not sure what category (there doesn't have to be any) they fall into.

NONE of that matters. What matters is how 'YOU' felt growing up, how 'YOU' feel now and a chance to talk about how and why those childhood experiences and/ or current parental contact, has left you feeling damaged, falling apart from the inside out and stumbling around trying to find your sense of self-worth.

You might also find the following links and information useful, if you have come this far and are still not sure whether you belong here or not.

'Toxic Parents' by Susan Forward.

I started with this book and found it really useful.

Here are some excerpts:

"Once you get going, most toxic parents will counterattack. After all, if they had the capacity to listen, to hear, to be reasonable, to respect your feelings, and to promote your independence, they wouldn't be toxic parents. They will probably perceive your words as treacherous personal assaults. They will tend to fall back on the same tactics and defences that they have always used, only more so.

Remember, the important thing is not their reaction but your response. If you can stand fast in the face of your parents' fury, accusations, threats and guilt-peddling, you will experience your finest hour.

Here are some typical parental reactions to confrontation:

"It never happened". Parents who have used denial to avoid their own feelings of inadequacy or anxiety, will undoubtedly use it during confrontation, to promote their version of reality. They'll insist that your allegations never happened, or that you're exaggerating. They won't remember, or they will accuse you of lying.

YOUR RESPONSE: Just because you don't remember, doesn't mean it didn't happen".

"It was your fault." Toxic parents are almost never willing to accept responsibility for their destructive behaviour. Instead, they will blame you. They will say that you were bad, or that you were difficult. They will claim that they did the best that they could but that you always created problems for them. They will say that you drove them crazy. They will offer as proof, the fact that everybody in the family knew what a problem you were. They will offer up a laundry list of your alleged offences against them.

YOUR RESPONSE: "You can keep trying to make this my fault, but I'm not going to accept the responsibility for what you did to me, when I was a child".

"I said I was sorry what more do you want?" Some parents may acknowledge a few of the things that you say but be unwilling to do anything about it.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate your apology, but that is just a beginning. If you're truly sorry, you'll work through this with me, to make a better relationship."

"We did the best we could." Some parents will remind you of how tough they had it while you were growing up and how hard they struggled. They will say such things as "You'll never understand what I was going through," or "I did the best I could". This particular style of response will often stir up a lot of sympathy and compassion for your parents. This is understandable, but it makes it difficult for you to remain focused on what you need to say in your confrontation. The temptation is for you once again to put their needs ahead of your own. It is important that you be able to acknowledge their difficulties, without invalidating your own.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I understand that you had a hard time, and I'm sure that you didn't hurt me on purpose, but I need you to understand that the way you dealt with your problems really did hurt me"

"Look what we did for you." Many parents will attempt to counter your assertions by recalling the wonderful times you had as a child and the loving moments you and they shared. By focusing on the good things, they can avoid looking at the darker side of their behaviour. Parents will typically remind you of gifts they gave you, places they took you, sacrifices they made for you, and thoughtful things they did. They will say things like, "this is the thanks we get" or "nothing was ever enough for you."

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate those things very much, but they didn't make up for ...."

"How can you do this to me?" Some parents act like martyrs. They'll collapse into tears, wring their hands, and express shock and disbelief at your "cruelty". They will act as if your confrontation has victimized them. They will accuse you of hurting them, or disappointing them. They will complain that they don't need this, they have enough problems. They will tell you that they are not strong enough or healthy enough to take this, that the heartache will kill them. Some of their sadness will, of course, be genuine. It is sad for parents to face their own shortcomings, to realise that they have caused their children significant pain. But their sadness can also be manipulative and controlling. It is their way of using guilt to try to make you back down from the confrontation.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I'm sorry you're upset. I'm sorry you're hurt. But I'm not willing to give up on this. I've been hurting for a long time, too."

Helpful Websites

Alice Miller

Personality Disorders definition

More helpful links:

Daughters of narcissistic mothers
Out of the FOG
You carry the cure in your own heart
Help for adult children of child abuse
Pete Walker

Some books:

Homecoming
Will I ever be good enough?
If you had controlling parents
When you and your mother can't be friends
Children of the self-absorbed
Recovery of your inner child

This final quote is from smithfield posting as therealsmithfield:

"I'm sure the other posters will be along shortly to add anything they feel I have left out. I personally don't claim to be sorted but I will say my head has become a helluva lot straighter since I started posting here. You will receive a lot of wisdom but above all else the insights and advice given will 'always' be delivered with warmth and support."

Hi Eternal,

You acted reasonably throughout. Your own FOG (fear, obligation and guilt) is causing you to have doubts.

I would not bother seeing them at all now and I would consider going no contact with them. I would not accept anything from them; its all loaded with guilt and obligation. They bring nothing at all positive into your lives and certainly have no concept of boundaries. Any boundary you try to set them is roundly ignored. It will also do your DD no favours at all to see you as her mum being so disrespected all the time and they could well start on her in time too. She does not need or warrant drunkard grandparents in her life anyway, let alone toxic drunkards. They could well also use your DD to get back at you. You are the scapegoat for their inherent ills.

Make next Christmas happier by not going to your mother's house at all. Raise and reaffirm your own boundaries here with regards to your mother; these are way too low still. Do something else with DD next year.

Grandparents in the UK have no automatic rights of access when it comes to their grandchildren. Your only error last time she turned up at your house uninvited was to actually open the door to her.

Some daft people will believe any old crap your mother says about you; these people are not worth bothering with in any case. Do not let these people continue to have any say in your lives.

Merry Christmas everyone. I often lurk but probably only post once a year.

Well this year I tried to enforce boundaries with my parents. They are just so rude, but think that as long as they pay for something ie dinner or a Christmas cheque then it excuses their behaviour.

Most recent behaviour includes going out for lunch with DD (7) and I, but paying and leaving early to do some more shopping (DD and I were still eating!!)

Purposely trying to wind me up with their very right wing political views.

Telling DD to "shush" (in my house) because the football scores are on.

It sounds petty written out here, I mean I'm sure many people tell our kids to be quiet, but I only see them twice a year. Obviously there are many more issues and tbh my childhood was just neglectful.

Every time I see them it is so stressful and they get so annoyed with me, but honestly I think they treat goading me as a sport.

I tried low contact and asked for no gifts, but they've put cash in my bank account instead.

I tried to speak yo my mum about things and she just tells me how hard it was for her when I was a child and how awful my grandparents were.

Not sure what I'm asking really. I've got 3 missed calls from them this evening as I was in the bath 😐

I've honestly nothing to say to them.

I only see parents twice a year not my dd

longdays - would it really be such a big wrench to wash your hands of them completely and go NC, seeing as you only see them twice/yr anyway? Also wouldn't you think that's a test and proof of how much they care about you?....they see you twice/yr and treat you so appallingly??

They're blatently buying their way into your conscience and your life by putting money in your account! WTF?? Such transparent tactics.

Let them know if they continue to put money in you're gonna give it straight to charity and you can provide proof if they don't believe you.

Any normal, loving parents would cherish the limited time they see their daughter and grandkids, so I reckon the writing's on the wall as far as this dysfunctional relationship is concerned. It's not likely to improve is it?

You don't have to tolerate this anymore if you don't want to. Nobody is forcing you play a role in this sham of a family dynamic. I would be wanting to sever all ties to these toxic buggers, if I were in your shoes. What positives do you actually get out of this relationship? If there's nothing, there's your answer.

Hi eternal I hope you didn't find my questions too harsh, I realised looking back at my post that it was a bit heavy for Christmas night.

It sounds like you dom't like confrontation. If it were practical, I think NC would really work for you as it would mean you didn't ever have to face their negativity or them just issuing you orders and assuming you'll go along with it. They would probably want to keep having it out with you and want to year reasons and all this but you don't owe them an explanation. Either they know fine what is wrong with their behaviour or they are too messed up to know. Either way, not your problem.

And you were totally reasonable to walk out. Who the hell starts Christmas dinner before their daughter and grandchild turn up?

Sigh. DM had one of her sulks today. I'm pretty cross, but not surprised. Possibly I pandered too much at the time by asking if she was ok but I'm going to take what she says "yes I'm fine" at face value. I will not be dragged into her emotionally burdening me with her selfish sulk.

I've posted on here before (name change) but don't very often and haven't for ages. I just needed somewhere to vent.

Hope you've all had a good day and your toxic rellies have behaved.

Thanks moomin I try non contact, but my siblings just get involved.
It's so frustrating as in I'm almost 40 ffs and they still treat me like a child.

I call them on their behaviour now, but they just accuse me of having a chip on my shoulder or overreacting.

I said that my DD was upset that they had "shushed" her due to the football scores being on. They just laughed and rolled their eyes, which makes me doubt whether I'm over reacting. Obviously this shows what my childhood was like.

I've just started a degree and they're the only people who haven't been positive about it.

In the end I did speak to my mum this evening, it was fine for 5 minutes (we generally are OK on the phone) but then my dad called through and told my mum "call the midwife" was about to start, so that was it!

Grrr

How do you go non contact if they keep calling and more than likely get other family members involved?

Merry Christmas everyone, I hope that those who saw their families are feeling recovered and more relaxed now

Eternal I'm widely known as the problem daughter too and any time I challenge my mother's behaviour towards me it gets put down to my need to cause trouble. This shit gets repeated so often I start believing it myself!

Longdays my m does the money thing too, I used to think it was because she felt guilty but I realise now that she does it so that she holds some power over me and has something she can use against me in case I step out of line - "you're so ungrateful complaining that I was rude to you after I gave you that money that you didn't want or ask for " - sound familiar? I NEVER accept anything from her now and she calls me a drama queen for it, she has tried sneaking cash into my pocket before which sometimes causes a scene but if she knew my bank details she would definitely try that! I would seriously consider closing that account down and using not letting them know the account number for the new one because ime they will keep doing it to retain some control over you otherwise.

M called earlier all breezy like nothing had happened - this is after she put the phone down on me when I told her I was feeling hurt about being excluded from the family christmas plans yet again. I didn't want to have an argument with her or spoil her christmas wimp she will expect it all to be brushed under the carpet now but I'm so frustrated with the whole thing! I wrote out a really long text to her earlier but I didn't send it in the end, I want her to listen, understand and have a calm rational discussion with me where she actually takes responsibility for her behaviour but I know that will never happen so I think nc is the only way.

toomuch no, it seemed fine to me

genericus what you wrote about being known as the problem daughter, I could have written that! It's been that way as far back as I can remember.

For anyone who has gone NC, when they live really near the GP, how do you do that? When I was younger and went to live in another city, I wouldn't see them for 2 years at a stretch and DM didn't contact me, didn't try to visit, I could just be 'busy' and get on with my life But being nearby she can/does just turn up, and with DD it feels like she has something on me, she can more authentically say to family/friends in a weepy way that I'm 'using DD as a weapon' if I go NC.

Longdays I find money difficult too, because I never keep any but give it all (or things I've bought with it) to DD, so she would directly lose out if I refused it. But as Genericus says, it is a power thing, and GP can then say to family/friends they are 'providing' for DD but not getting anything back if I don't want them to see me/her.

Drama queen.. it's one of those phrases used to shut girls/women down, isn't it? I remember being called it when younger, if I got upset about something. Strange, because the person using the term (DM) was/is the ultimate drama queen, she literally cannot cope with anyone having attention never mind negative feelings, in her orbit. She will actively compete if someone is upset or ill, demonstrating herself to be worse and in need of more attention/sympathy.

longdays if they keep calling just put the phone down on them or shut the door in their faces. Just like you would any other nuisance caller or time-waster on the doorstep. I actually think this would work a treat cos people like this only understand very abrupt behaviour that cannot be misinterpreted.

Firstly, unless you've done so already, write them an email ( if that's the easiest method, talking can be impractical for obv reasons ) and tell them EXACTLY why you have a problem with them and what you have decided the consequences are going to be. Be 100% honest and forthright, hold nothing back. This is also very cathartic. So that you are mentally preparing them and forwarning them so that if they try it on they know full well what to expect and more importantly, when you follow thru, they will see that you're damn serious.

I would then forward that email to your other family members to keep them informed of the situation and you can explain what you expect of them also. Your other family members should be made aware of exactly how you feel and the stance you're taking. It is then up to them how they handle it. It's their choice how they deal with it but ultimately it's btwn you and your parents and nobody else's business anyway.

I remember telling my "mother" to "Fuck off" on the phone ( we were having an argument and it's a lot easier to sever all contact in that situation! ) and slammed it down, then I emailed my other toxic family. There's been no contact since. But I'm abroad so it was different to your situation, and easier for me!

You can, of course, read the books that are posted on the sticky on this thread but 1st and formost, don't overthink this. Be practical and this means being ruthless and making sure you are seen to be a person that takes no shit. Don't over-complicate things. Just be honest with yourself and listen to your intuition. You can't change them, they make you unhappy, so why tolerate it? We are all big boys and girls and should be able to deal with conflict and change our predicament if we're unhappy. It's also an important lesson to teach the kids. We lead by example. I personally feel that if people are a constant disappointment and bring zero positivity to our lives then they don't deserve to be part of our lives.

You have a basic right ( as do your kids obv ) to be surrounded by positive people and those that bring happiness to your lives. Toxic people only build up our stress levels and suck our mental energy. Not conducive to a happy and healthy relationship whichever way you look at it. Always remember you have a choice, now that you're an adult, unlike when you were a child. It can be hard emotionally but practically it is only as hard as you choose to make it.

This is a good piece about writing no contact letters:-

www.lightshouse.org/writing-no-contact-letters.html#axzz3vPfatq18

They also recommend photocopying such a letter (not just having it on your computer).

Eternal sunshine - your mother may well be a narcissist given what you have written about her. These people usually have the golden child/scapegoat dynamic going on as well as it all having to be about them and them alone.

Well [http://www.mumsnet.com/Talk/am_i_being_unreasonable/2535119-To-never-speak-to-my-parents-again-after-this-Christmas-present?msgid=58293792#58293792 this] is a lovely thread isn't it? As you can see I have already replied. Donning the old asbestos jacket even as we speak

Attila I got a text today telling me that I ruined Christmas for my daughter, then and myself by leaving / plus a threat to not give my daughter her birthday money if I don't turn up to the meal my mother has told me I'm going to on my daughter's birthday on Monday. Sigh.

toomuch I can see your point on that feed, it's the sorry of thing that negates by humour.. it's a hard thing to rebutt but you phrased it well.

People can and do stoop very low sometimes.

I doubt whether MN in their infinite wisdom will take it down though. I suppose the original poster thought it would be amusing.

How can anyone think that is at amusing or call it a joke?.

Eternal

I would now request your mobile phone provider to block your mother's number from your phone. Sod her and her rotten loaded text message.

She does not bring anything at all positive into your lives. Neither of you really have any further need for this woman along with her money which is loaded with obligation. Such is also never given without strings attached.

suchafuss my dd much older (mid teens) and feels conflicted. We've always been a lower priority than my sis and her dc but it has this year become much more obvious and less discrete and to do so on her birthday I think is really out of order! But dd is sad at the thought of basically having no extended family (ex's side pretty much out of picture). Where we live that's weird. Everyone mainly socialises with family and a very few friends (who are normally connected to the family in some way).

Moomin back story is basically drunk abusive dad, enabling mum who is also toxic in terms of playing martyr. Dad made me his GC (pervy motives, which mum and sis don't believe) and sis scapegoat so mum reversed and made me SG and sis GC. Dad now treats all of us like shit! Mum was really sick this year (recovering now). Sis wouldn't let anyone (not just me and dd) near her! At times even preventing indirect communicating. As a result mum now thinks we didn't care! Extremely difficult situation which i felt i couldn't discuss with anyone as who falls out with their sick mum and the sis who's ‘doing everything for her’? Extended family only see it as ‘your mum was sick and you didn't help enough’.

I’m now NC with sis and dad. I was NC with dad before for several years but was persuaded gradually to get back in touch against my better judgement. He was OK at first (grateful I was back in touch?) But then reverted to his vile abusive assholery!

I now feel very isolated and my mh is worse. I moved back home with the promise of support which barely happened.

Dd understands as much as any teen can but i think is worried about possibly having to explain to people what the situation is. And as we on this thread know, even other adults don't understand if they haven't experienced a toxic family. ‘You only get one mum/dad’ etc.

Eternal I'm so sorry that happened to you and dd YANBU at all of have done the same. I think it would have been better if you'd given a definite answer to them before the day. That's not intended as a criticism, but a note for future reference (if you stay in touch with them). I see dd's birthday soon I think it would be better for you if you told them clearly you won't be seeing them for her birthday, and that they should not be making arrangements with other family members without consulting you first. As for the threat to withold dd birthday money, is dd pay per view? Will dd even notice/care? Again as we say on here regularly that says far more about her than you.

“You acted reasonably throughout. Your own FOG (fear, obligation and guilt) is causing you to have doubts.” true. It's so difficult to get out of this.

Longdays I don't think what you've said is petty. It's still controlling. I agree with ask your bank for new account details. My dad likes to throw money around as a way of appearing to be a ‘good’ parent. ‘Look how generous I am and how ungrateful you are’. I hate it! No longer accept money off him.

Still feeling anxious today. Not heard from anyone. That's fine with me.

for everyone dealing with this shit.

I've not seen the thread referenced but even before I saw that post I was also going to say there seem to be more threads being posted on the rest of MN by people who have family members who've gone NC with them, coming on mn and saying they've been told why but won't say why in their posts just that the reasons are 'petty' or that they 'over reacted' (the person that went NC overreacted that is). Am I the only one that thinks the person who went NC probably had a bloody good reason?! But anyone who says this is shouted down or even deleted.

Fup you might be interested in this website (if I can do a bloody link this time) here the person has made a study of internet activity of estranged parents. It is full of all that stuff of "DS went NC with us 2 years ago, we asked for an explanation but nothing came only a letter full of vile hatred and allegations of awful things that weren't true but even if they were he was overreacting."

Hrm. I find myself drawn to those sites and also here on MN, fighting with people who don't take EA seriously. I'm wondering whether I need to have it out with my mum or whether this is an unhealthy train of thought. One for the therapist come Jan I think.

^
Let them know if they continue to put money in you're gonna give it straight to charity and you can provide proof if they don't believe you.^

If they're so right wing, gift it to the Labour Party, Fabian Society or similar & mail them a receipt.

Romcom great idea.

As predicted the IL's turned up at our house on Christmas eve and dumped Christmas presents on our doorstep in black bin liners. DH saw them through the window and his mother was even wearing a Christmas hat!

They left presents for all the children except DC1. They had even left a present for the dog but left DC1 out.

I have no words.

All I can think is that it just reiterates why we are NC with them.

Can I just ask.........what would you have done with the presents?

Mampam wtaf???! That's outrageous! I would be tempted to dump them on their doorstep but you might not want to deal with the fallout from that so maybe donate them to a women's refuge or charity shop?

Omg mampam that's awful. What is wrong with these people?

Our first reaction was to dump them back on the their doorstep but I think it would have been giving them a 'reaction'.

To be honest I think we are damned if we do and damned if we don't. By keeping them and not returning them I think will encourage them to do it again.

The problem was that it all unfolded before the DC's eyes. I returned home with DC1&2 minutes after they had dropped the presents off. It would seem they waited down the road to watch our front door to see if we took them in and only drove off when they saw me pull up in my car. They even drove passed waving

The presents were still on the doorstep when I pulled up. DH was just opening the door. He had seen his mother through the window and had been getting DC's 3&4 away from the window so he could go to the front door and tell them to leave. Unfortunately they had driven off by the time he got to the door.

Mampam, whatever you want to do with the gifts is just fine. I Wouldn't want them In the house, that's for sure.

Your poor dc1 :(

Poor you :( it's so needless all this, isn't it?