"But we took you to Stately Homes!" Survivors of Dysfunctional Families

[OnceAMeerNotAlwaysAMeer]

It's November '15, and the Stately Home is still open to visitors.

Forerunning threads:
December 2007
March 2008
August 2008
February 2009
May 2009
January 2010
April 2010
August 2010
March 2011
November 2011
January 2012
November 2012
January 2013
March 2013
August 2013
December 2013
February 2014
April 2014
July 2014
Oct 14 – Dec 14
Dec 14 – March 15
March - Nov 2015

Welcome to the Stately Homes Thread.

This is a long running thread which was originally started up by 'pages' see original thread here (December 2007)

So this thread originates from that thread and has become a safe haven for Adult children of abusive families.

One thing you will never hear on this thread is that your abuse or experience was not that bad. You will never have your feelings minimised the way they were when you were a child, or now that you are an adult. To coin the phrase of a much respected past poster Ally90;

'Nobody can judge how sad your childhood made you, even if you wrote a novel on it, only you know that. I can well imagine any of us saying some of the seemingly trivial things our parents/ siblings did to us to many of our real life acquaintances and them not understanding why we were upset/ angry/ hurt etc. And that is why this thread is here. It's a safe place to vent our true feelings, validate our childhood/ lifetime experiences of being hurt/ angry etc by our parents behaviour and to get support for dealing with family in the here and now.'

Most new posters generally start off their posts by saying; but it wasn't that bad for me or my experience wasn't as awful as x,y or z's.

Some on here have been emotionally abused and/ or physically abused. Some are not sure what category (there doesn't have to be any) they fall into.

NONE of that matters. What matters is how 'YOU' felt growing up, how 'YOU' feel now and a chance to talk about how and why those childhood experiences and/ or current parental contact, has left you feeling damaged, falling apart from the inside out and stumbling around trying to find your sense of self-worth.

You might also find the following links and information useful, if you have come this far and are still not sure whether you belong here or not.

'Toxic Parents' by Susan Forward.

I started with this book and found it really useful.

Here are some excerpts:

"Once you get going, most toxic parents will counterattack. After all, if they had the capacity to listen, to hear, to be reasonable, to respect your feelings, and to promote your independence, they wouldn't be toxic parents. They will probably perceive your words as treacherous personal assaults. They will tend to fall back on the same tactics and defences that they have always used, only more so.

Remember, the important thing is not their reaction but your response. If you can stand fast in the face of your parents' fury, accusations, threats and guilt-peddling, you will experience your finest hour.

Here are some typical parental reactions to confrontation:

"It never happened". Parents who have used denial to avoid their own feelings of inadequacy or anxiety, will undoubtedly use it during confrontation, to promote their version of reality. They'll insist that your allegations never happened, or that you're exaggerating. They won't remember, or they will accuse you of lying.

YOUR RESPONSE: Just because you don't remember, doesn't mean it didn't happen".

"It was your fault." Toxic parents are almost never willing to accept responsibility for their destructive behaviour. Instead, they will blame you. They will say that you were bad, or that you were difficult. They will claim that they did the best that they could but that you always created problems for them. They will say that you drove them crazy. They will offer as proof, the fact that everybody in the family knew what a problem you were. They will offer up a laundry list of your alleged offences against them.

YOUR RESPONSE: "You can keep trying to make this my fault, but I'm not going to accept the responsibility for what you did to me, when I was a child".

"I said I was sorry what more do you want?" Some parents may acknowledge a few of the things that you say but be unwilling to do anything about it.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate your apology, but that is just a beginning. If you're truly sorry, you'll work through this with me, to make a better relationship."

"We did the best we could." Some parents will remind you of how tough they had it while you were growing up and how hard they struggled. They will say such things as "You'll never understand what I was going through," or "I did the best I could". This particular style of response will often stir up a lot of sympathy and compassion for your parents. This is understandable, but it makes it difficult for you to remain focused on what you need to say in your confrontation. The temptation is for you once again to put their needs ahead of your own. It is important that you be able to acknowledge their difficulties, without invalidating your own.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I understand that you had a hard time, and I'm sure that you didn't hurt me on purpose, but I need you to understand that the way you dealt with your problems really did hurt me"

"Look what we did for you." Many parents will attempt to counter your assertions by recalling the wonderful times you had as a child and the loving moments you and they shared. By focusing on the good things, they can avoid looking at the darker side of their behaviour. Parents will typically remind you of gifts they gave you, places they took you, sacrifices they made for you, and thoughtful things they did. They will say things like, "this is the thanks we get" or "nothing was ever enough for you."

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate those things very much, but they didn't make up for ...."

"How can you do this to me?" Some parents act like martyrs. They'll collapse into tears, wring their hands, and express shock and disbelief at your "cruelty". They will act as if your confrontation has victimized them. They will accuse you of hurting them, or disappointing them. They will complain that they don't need this, they have enough problems. They will tell you that they are not strong enough or healthy enough to take this, that the heartache will kill them. Some of their sadness will, of course, be genuine. It is sad for parents to face their own shortcomings, to realise that they have caused their children significant pain. But their sadness can also be manipulative and controlling. It is their way of using guilt to try to make you back down from the confrontation.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I'm sorry you're upset. I'm sorry you're hurt. But I'm not willing to give up on this. I've been hurting for a long time, too."

Helpful Websites

Alice Miller

Personality Disorders definition

More helpful links:

Daughters of narcissistic mothers
Out of the FOG
You carry the cure in your own heart
Help for adult children of child abuse
Pete Walker

Some books:

Homecoming
Will I ever be good enough?
If you had controlling parents
When you and your mother can't be friends
Children of the self-absorbed
Recovery of your inner child

This final quote is from smithfield posting as therealsmithfield:

"I'm sure the other posters will be along shortly to add anything they feel I have left out. I personally don't claim to be sorted but I will say my head has become a helluva lot straighter since I started posting here. You will receive a lot of wisdom but above all else the insights and advice given will 'always' be delivered with warmth and support."

Sasha of course they are wrong about you, for them this is not about you. You are just the scapegoat, the vessel for them to externalise their own problems on. It is not about you as the real loving 3d person you are, they need to not think of you that way , the way they dehumanise you is a self defence mechanism (from themselves) that allows them to abuse you without guilt, and so they will absolutely refuse to consider changing their viewpoint no matter how reasonable or logical it would be. It would collapse their reality and they would have to face the thing that scares them most, themselves. It's more complex than lack of self awareness, and more simple.

Your son will not miss them specifically, just the concept of a loving extended family like you do, and they arnt that.

Florentina there is a lot of peace and self forgiveness to be had from knowing you have done everything you can with the tools you had available at the time, I congratulate you on finding that peace not everyone does.

Unfortunately not complete free. I am still looking after her husband of 40 years who is severely disabled, irritable and irrationally demanding. However the day she married him I felt a massive burden lift as I was not 100% at her beck and call any more.

For him, I am able to do the care completely unemotionally. He is not very keen on women but at least with him it is not personal.

Sounds like a perfect case for the local adult services team to take on, Florentina.

I would not even hesitate for 10 minutes. Well possibly if I thought I could potentially murder him and get away with it. Just kidding. Mostly

Happy Christmas Stately Homers!

We are in Spain so we are doing it the Spanish way - having a sort of Christmas dinner this evening (a sort of bernard matthews chicken type thing stuffed with plums and walnuts, just have to heat it up and veggies and roast potatoes and gravy) but with Spanish style starters of cold meats, cheese and prawns. Then we'll repeat the same meal for Christmas lunch tomorrow. Going to a live nativity scene (people dressed up and some sheep and so on) on Boxing Day and hopefully the beach for 2 days after that. The weather is glorious so looking forward to walking along the beach and chilling out.
Have little pangs of feeling really sorry for my mother, she'll be having a fairly shit Christmas I imagine having just had her tumour removed and now I think starting radiotherapy, but like DH said, she's the one who isolated herself and chooses not to make amends.
So trying to check my co-dependent side in check along with controlling my hugely over developed sense of empathy and responsibility and just enjoying the here and now and trying to have a nice Christmas with DH, the kids and MIL.
DM always used to have SOMETHING to complain about Chrsitmas here, but I really enjoy it actually. But then again, complaining is DM's life work, her only hobby.

Merry Christmas to all stately homes survivors. to all of you dealing with toxic families at this time of year.

Apologies for not having been on in a while I've been really struggling with my mh.

Today nightmare! Dd birthday we always go out for a 'family' meal. This year because of the events of the year, terrible atmosphere.

I have ocd mum knows this and knows what I can and can't cope with and brought presents over but in such a way as I can't even touch them! She knows this. Sis and eldest dn have similar issues which she NEVER forgets or doesn't account for.

In addition as soon as we were alone I got earache about the years events. Specifically not talking to dad. Today of all days! She was also in a rush to get away. Clock watching. Reading between the lines and knowing mum and sis it was because she'd arranged/was commanded to meet sis for something. Normally she makes a point of not having anywhere else to be dd's birthday. We got back and as soon as we were in the door dd said (quite rightly) 'she really doesn't care about anyone but herself and aunt does she?'

So dd's birthday tainted. Nice one! I've just cried in the shower out of anger, hurt and frustration! I need to compose myself before I see dd so Christmas isn't ruined!

Mum had said she'll 'try' to 'pop over' tomorrow at some point. I am pretty certain she'll be at sis for tomorrow. Then there'll be an excuse 'I'm too tired' 'I'm not feeling well' 'dads not well' 'I wanna get back for x TV show' (yes really) at which point dd will be heartbroken and I'll have to help her of course meanwhile thinking what a rotten thing to do! Argh! How do I help dd? How do I copr with all this? Frankly at this point if it were just up to me I'd be done with em all!

Oh and apparently dad has told mum he only asked me to try and reconcile with sis for mum's sake - omitted all the name calling and shouting and phoning in middle of night to do so! Apparently he also text me (he's blocked) to offer me money for dd's presents. 1 I cannot be bought 2 I don't need his money I managed without for years!

fup I imagine your mental health would improve if you went nc with your family, no birthdays no Christmas, no presents for you or for anyone in your family, no meals, no visits, calls, texts or emails. Just call it a day.

Let her go to dsis and be happy there. Stop trying so hard for them to let you down again.

Happy Christmas to one and all.

I've had ds dad contact him today, he managed to remember to wish him a happy birthday (ds was 10 a full TEN DAYS AGO) I know he forgot/didn't bother on purpose. Hideous vile creature.

Lucky ds knows that it means FA about him as a boy.

I just wish I didn't have to have a conversation with him like this.

Yes my mh would definitely improve if I was completely NC but its not just about me its dd too and at the moment she still wants contact albeit low contact with mum partly as her other gran is pretty shit too (since divorce ex's side of family make little effort). So I get where you're coming from that's a shame for your DS.

You shouldn't have go have a conversation like that but I'm sure he knows you love him loads.

Fup,

re your comment:-
"she still wants contact albeit low contact with mum partly as her other gran is pretty shit too"

Actually that is not either a sound basis or reason for her to maintain contact; its basically swapping one type of crap for another, albeit different type of crap.

Being young and idealistic along with not much in the way of life experience behind her could well go against her when it comes to such people who may manipulate her into feeling sorry for them. She may well feel sorry for your mother.

I would remind her that low contact often leads to no contact. It does her no favours to keep on seeing you as her mother being so disrespected by people like your mother.

I agree but at her age I don't feel I can ban her from her gran. I do feel she is gradually heading toward NC but would feel guilty. How do I get a teen out of fog without telling her to read up etc (teens not being known for their acquiescence).

When we got home after meal this eve dd did say 'she really does only think about herself eh' about gran.

Hello all, and nearly happy Christmas! Just wanted to say, stay strong for tomorrow, hope you all have a good Christmas and if not, it's nearly 2016, nearly time for a new start...

I also wanted to say thank you for all your help over these last few months. I thought my issues with my mother were all over bar the shouting, but since going NC in September, coming on here, and starting therapy, I feel as if someone has just opened the door and let the sunshine in. I wish you all the same for 2016.

Toomuchtooyoung lovely post. I think I need to go back to Dr asap. Sat in tears dreading tomorrow.

Hello all, just sticking my head above the lurkers' parapet to wish you all a good Christmas and thank you for the help you gave me when I posted under a different name a couple of years ago. Attila in particular

Since then I have gone fully NC with my sibling and M. Absolutely no regrets. DS still sees them, albeit rarely, but he is an adult now and doesn't take any crap from them He knows everything they've done, witnessed some of it even, but he is very wise and knows when they are trying to manipulate him and doesn't allow them to get away with it.

Just now, I was reading some of your posts and I had the sudden urge to take my phone off 'flight mode' (it's been on that almost all the time since a huge bust up with my F a few months ago, I couldn't cope with the thought of him calling me). I took it off flight mode and instead I blocked his number. And his wife's. I feel like reading your posts gave me the courage. It sounds like just a small change but to me it's a big one. I will be fully NC with him as well now, which leaves me with no close (geographically or otherwise) relatives at all. M, F and F's wife do all live in the same town as me though. We can't afford to move.

I feel a little bit sad to realise that I've effectively just orphaned myself, but at the same time I'm happy to allow myself to be free of them and their awfulness.

Thank you and good wishes to you all

Treasures what a lovely post.

I've a very upset teen to deal with this morning. My mum was at a panto with my sis and dn's last night. And is spending day with them too. A relative (possibly unaware of the circumstances, possibly knew and disagrees with what mum's doing) let slip on fb. She lied about last night (said she was rushing for dad) and lied about only popping into sisters today.

I've said to daughter let's just have our day and enjoy it. I've sent a text to mum saying probably best not to 'pop round' after all. Kept it as polite/neutral as possible when really I wanted to let rip!! Furious and hurt! Dd in bits! Arghhhhhh! What is wrong with these people?! Advice please if anyone gets a moment on what I know is a tricky day.

On the run but she has sown, now let her reap !
What is the point in her ?
What is the point in being polite and nice to her..its never worked before. Do the same, get the same. She doesn't hold herself to the standards of behaviour you do, because she dosnt want to.
I would make up a very very rude Christmas song about grandma with dd to take the sting out of it. Then you need to protect her from this by showing her its not acceptable to be treated as second best..

Happy Christmas and a big thank you to those who responded last week. For the first time in a lot of years i am able to spend Christmas without the presence of my toxic father and found the courage to go nc and return all the presents abd cards unopend!

So hard. Dd doesn't want to discuss it again today. She wants us to just enjoy our day. She's pleased with her gifts from me (which I was worried about as money a bit short this year). She doesn't wanna cut gran out totally but I am so sick of dealing with this shit! And seeing dd upset is awful. That's what most hurts and most makes me angry (sorry terrible grammer). Thing is what more can I do? We've both told mum repeatedly we're sick of being bottom of her priorities! Where mum makes things worse when she's I think trying to make things better is lying and then gets caught out! Then we're pissed off she's lied to us!

Great post suchafuss well done on returning stuff.

Fup sorry your day not going as well as you would wish at Christmas. My daughter too gets upset re her Grand parents and doesnt understand why i don't allow her to see them, but she is only 9 so will understand more when she is older and perhaps your daughter will too eventually understand. In the meantime all we can do is love them unconditionally and break the cycle of disfunction. Have a fantastic day and

Sorry your having a shit time of it Fup, especially as it's your daughter it's most effecting. Nobody ( in an ideal world! ) should be on here on Xmas Day having to off-load cos of how dysfunctional and utterly crap their family is. Doesn't that just reflect how bad it's become?!

Not meaning to sound flippant but we can all psychoanalyse eachothers' family until the cows come home and try and assess their behaviour etc etc but it won't ever make a ha'peth of difference imo. They will NEVER change. Either they get a kick out of knowingly hurting us or their behaviour is actually NORMAL to them cos they are that bloody warped and screwed up.

The key is to stop letting them have that power over you. Even if you aren't ready to go No Contact yet ( tho I think that should be everyone's ultimate goal eventually cos it really is futile to just plod on being a martyr ) you need to get to a place where you don't let them influence your moods or your mental health, for that matter. Toxic people, if allowed head-space, get into our heads and poison our minds.

Expending energy thinking about their bullshit behaviour and feeling aggrieved constantly ( which just causes stress and negativity to build up ) serves no purpose and they should not have the power to influence our lives or wellbeing like that.

I think if you've done all that you can re your idiot, toxic relatives ( and by that I mean tell them fully and in no uncertain terms, whether it be verbally or written, what you think of their behaviour and how it's negatively impacting on your and your daughter's life ) and they don't change ( which they won't! ) then you must think of consequences for their behaviour. Give them an ultimatum? Tell them you no longer want them in your lives?...

You need to distance yourself from these people so they no longer get you down. I don't know how old your daughter is ( sorry I've not read your back story ) but maybe explain in a way she'll understand that your mother and sister are unpleasent people and we shouldn't let unpleasant people dictate our mood and have that amount of power over us etc etc...

Don't be one of these people that is still dealing with this in 5yrs time. I realise it's not so cut and dry for anyone but I do think people have a tendency to over-think and over-complicate the matter. If anyone treats us like shit, time and again, then we shouldn't entertain them. Family or not. Your conscience is clear, you tried 100% to remedy the situation and they choose to piss all over your efforts...so fuck 'em! Get rid of the dead wood, from all areas of our lives. That's my take on it.

Ffs.. I don't know who else there is to vent to today, don't want to spoil anyone else's day. Hope folks on here don't mind.

DM and her husband came round early this morning, they had given some money for DD presents, so I said ok.. Actually, what they did is start messaging me really early, woke me up and tried to re arrange the first time they had agreed with me. I said no, politely. They then turned up later than we had agreed.. but it actually worked out well add DD was only just up.. Then, because DM wasn't the centre of attention, DD was, she couldn't take it and kept fidgeting.. anyway, it wasn't too painful and they left pretty quickly and I breathed a sigh of relief .. except in the course of the conversation they had somehow told me I wad going to theirs for Christmas Dinner this afternoon and I just didn't have the energy to say no, today being what it is.

They had said 4, really specifically and also that if I would struggle to make it, it could always be 4.30/5. Then about 3 I got a message to say the dinner would now be 3.30. So I sent a message to say that it was earlier than expected but I would do my best to get there at the earlier time. I busted a gut to get us sorted, dressed, drive over there.. Walked in, at 3.30, and they were already half way through dinner. They hadn't even tried to wait for us. At this point I just saw red, I mean how much effort does it take to restrain yourself from eating until your guests have arrived, on time, on Christmas Day? I think I said 'seriously, you couldn't even be bothered to wait for us?'. DM turned around, said sorry (not in an apologetic tone) and that husband had wanted to start. Husband kept his back to us, didn't even turn around. I said 'right well we're going then, here's your present', put the present down on their sofa and left. No-one came after me (they had time as I got DD in the car). I drove home feeling it was somehow upsetting but cathartic to actually speak my mind to them for once, bloody grown alcoholic children but with DD going 'nanna, nanna' in the back of the car, which breaks my heart.

Back at home, DD doesn't really care, she's watching cartoons and would be happy with toast for dinner. I'm more bothered and writing this. I feel happy I asserted myself, after everything that has happened this year with them.. but scared too. I'd find it easier to go NC if I want just down the road. I have no doubt if I don't want to see them, or have DD see them they'll tell everyone I'm all sorts of wrong, and try to bully their way into my house to see DD (their 'right' to see their grandchild).

I know they must have been drinking. For most of the day. Which is partly why I hesitated to accept the invitation until today. Maybe in their drunken state they just expected me to go in and be ok with the situation. Maybe some people would be ok with it. Can someone I here tell me, AIBU? For me, it's against a backdrop of e.g. DM constantly telling me how bad I was as a child / how put upon she was / how good my sister was, and comparing DD to 'bad me' when she is 'bad' (being a normal toddler) and 'good sister' when she is 'good' (e.g. she sleeps a lot). I don't know how good my perspective is. I'm so aware that in the next year DD will begin to understand some of what is said and livid at DM thinking it's acceptable to degrade her mother to her, in her mother's presence.

Am going to have some re heated roast that luckily, I made yesterday, and do my best to enjoy the evening with DD.

Hi eternal sorry to hear that your mother is once again upsetting you. First off don't worry about DD, for her it will just be one of those inexplicable things that the adult world sometimes does. But no YANBU - even for someone whose mother was usually OK that would be a masty thing to do, and more so for you as it's not a one off lapse,she's always horrible to you. I can see you are trying to explain and pon down the nastiness e.g the good sister/bad you comparison. Don't worry, we know what sort of abuse it was because most of us have suffered it too.

Can I ask why you accepted the invite? Did you hope it might be better this time? It's a habit of us abused children to do that, even though our parents are sick and have no interest in getting better. You know you could take the money for the presents, say no to Christmas dinner and other visits, and you would not be doing anything wrong? You are all adults, nobody is obliged to suffer someone else's company if they don't want it. And as grandparents they have no rights, whtrver they might feel entitled to. I hope you and DD can enjoy the rest of the day together anyway. xx

Hi toomuch

I didn't actually accept the invitation. They had asked me a couple of weeks ago, and I had said I would get back to them but hadn't. When they arrived this morning they acted/spoke as though I had accepted, 'see you later' kind of thing and specifically gave the dinner time as 4, they said that several times. Before today I had avoided making the decision because of conflicted feelings. And when they acted that way today I think I just kind of mumbled 'ok see you later' and accepted it, and that's how they got their way. I guess by the time they came round this morning doing the 'loving xmas grandparents' thing I then felt guilty for DD just being on her own with me and that I would be 'depriving' her of xmas with her grandparents (even though I knew what they would be like - drunk, and that she won't remember).. si in the end a guilt trip, possibly a self-imposed one.

You are right, I could have just taken the money and said no to anything else. DD birthday is in 2 days and so I will have to make the decision about whether to see them again soon. When I saw DM last week she told me she has invited my aunt and 'we' are all going out for a meal on DD's birthday. It's another weird situation where I wasn't asked so much as told, and then felt like I would be being awkward/mean to my relatives if I said 'no actually I don't know what we're doing yet'. But in the light of what has happened today, I'm even considering being 'out' and out of touch all day that day.

They totally don't get the 'grandparents have no rights' thing. The last time I went NC with DM (to do with a funeral, another story), she just turned up at my house about 2 weeks later, when I opened the door she virtually pushed her way in and demanded to see DD. Her behaviour is odd, she acts like a weak/victim type a lot of the time, and will claim that husband has made such and such a decision, and yet so much of what she does seems so manipulative/calculated/bullying. I have no doubt that if I even say I don't want to see them for a while so I can take some time for myself, that will get reported to everyone they know as the 'problem' daughter who 'once agian' is being difficult/mean to her mother, despite her mother's doting/generous nature etc etc...

I doubt myself, when something like this happens, I find myself thinking, well I could have just gone in, sat down, my mother might have gone to fetch me a dinner from the kitchen or something. Some people might have. It was a spur of the moment reaction on my part.