"But we took you to Stately Homes!" Survivors of Dysfunctional Families

[OnceAMeerNotAlwaysAMeer]

It's November '15, and the Stately Home is still open to visitors.

Forerunning threads:
December 2007
March 2008
August 2008
February 2009
May 2009
January 2010
April 2010
August 2010
March 2011
November 2011
January 2012
November 2012
January 2013
March 2013
August 2013
December 2013
February 2014
April 2014
July 2014
Oct 14 – Dec 14
Dec 14 – March 15
March - Nov 2015

Welcome to the Stately Homes Thread.

This is a long running thread which was originally started up by 'pages' see original thread here (December 2007)

So this thread originates from that thread and has become a safe haven for Adult children of abusive families.

One thing you will never hear on this thread is that your abuse or experience was not that bad. You will never have your feelings minimised the way they were when you were a child, or now that you are an adult. To coin the phrase of a much respected past poster Ally90;

'Nobody can judge how sad your childhood made you, even if you wrote a novel on it, only you know that. I can well imagine any of us saying some of the seemingly trivial things our parents/ siblings did to us to many of our real life acquaintances and them not understanding why we were upset/ angry/ hurt etc. And that is why this thread is here. It's a safe place to vent our true feelings, validate our childhood/ lifetime experiences of being hurt/ angry etc by our parents behaviour and to get support for dealing with family in the here and now.'

Most new posters generally start off their posts by saying; but it wasn't that bad for me or my experience wasn't as awful as x,y or z's.

Some on here have been emotionally abused and/ or physically abused. Some are not sure what category (there doesn't have to be any) they fall into.

NONE of that matters. What matters is how 'YOU' felt growing up, how 'YOU' feel now and a chance to talk about how and why those childhood experiences and/ or current parental contact, has left you feeling damaged, falling apart from the inside out and stumbling around trying to find your sense of self-worth.

You might also find the following links and information useful, if you have come this far and are still not sure whether you belong here or not.

'Toxic Parents' by Susan Forward.

I started with this book and found it really useful.

Here are some excerpts:

"Once you get going, most toxic parents will counterattack. After all, if they had the capacity to listen, to hear, to be reasonable, to respect your feelings, and to promote your independence, they wouldn't be toxic parents. They will probably perceive your words as treacherous personal assaults. They will tend to fall back on the same tactics and defences that they have always used, only more so.

Remember, the important thing is not their reaction but your response. If you can stand fast in the face of your parents' fury, accusations, threats and guilt-peddling, you will experience your finest hour.

Here are some typical parental reactions to confrontation:

"It never happened". Parents who have used denial to avoid their own feelings of inadequacy or anxiety, will undoubtedly use it during confrontation, to promote their version of reality. They'll insist that your allegations never happened, or that you're exaggerating. They won't remember, or they will accuse you of lying.

YOUR RESPONSE: Just because you don't remember, doesn't mean it didn't happen".

"It was your fault." Toxic parents are almost never willing to accept responsibility for their destructive behaviour. Instead, they will blame you. They will say that you were bad, or that you were difficult. They will claim that they did the best that they could but that you always created problems for them. They will say that you drove them crazy. They will offer as proof, the fact that everybody in the family knew what a problem you were. They will offer up a laundry list of your alleged offences against them.

YOUR RESPONSE: "You can keep trying to make this my fault, but I'm not going to accept the responsibility for what you did to me, when I was a child".

"I said I was sorry what more do you want?" Some parents may acknowledge a few of the things that you say but be unwilling to do anything about it.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate your apology, but that is just a beginning. If you're truly sorry, you'll work through this with me, to make a better relationship."

"We did the best we could." Some parents will remind you of how tough they had it while you were growing up and how hard they struggled. They will say such things as "You'll never understand what I was going through," or "I did the best I could". This particular style of response will often stir up a lot of sympathy and compassion for your parents. This is understandable, but it makes it difficult for you to remain focused on what you need to say in your confrontation. The temptation is for you once again to put their needs ahead of your own. It is important that you be able to acknowledge their difficulties, without invalidating your own.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I understand that you had a hard time, and I'm sure that you didn't hurt me on purpose, but I need you to understand that the way you dealt with your problems really did hurt me"

"Look what we did for you." Many parents will attempt to counter your assertions by recalling the wonderful times you had as a child and the loving moments you and they shared. By focusing on the good things, they can avoid looking at the darker side of their behaviour. Parents will typically remind you of gifts they gave you, places they took you, sacrifices they made for you, and thoughtful things they did. They will say things like, "this is the thanks we get" or "nothing was ever enough for you."

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate those things very much, but they didn't make up for ...."

"How can you do this to me?" Some parents act like martyrs. They'll collapse into tears, wring their hands, and express shock and disbelief at your "cruelty". They will act as if your confrontation has victimized them. They will accuse you of hurting them, or disappointing them. They will complain that they don't need this, they have enough problems. They will tell you that they are not strong enough or healthy enough to take this, that the heartache will kill them. Some of their sadness will, of course, be genuine. It is sad for parents to face their own shortcomings, to realise that they have caused their children significant pain. But their sadness can also be manipulative and controlling. It is their way of using guilt to try to make you back down from the confrontation.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I'm sorry you're upset. I'm sorry you're hurt. But I'm not willing to give up on this. I've been hurting for a long time, too."

Helpful Websites

Alice Miller

Personality Disorders definition

More helpful links:

Daughters of narcissistic mothers
Out of the FOG
You carry the cure in your own heart
Help for adult children of child abuse
Pete Walker

Some books:

Homecoming
Will I ever be good enough?
If you had controlling parents
When you and your mother can't be friends
Children of the self-absorbed
Recovery of your inner child

This final quote is from smithfield posting as therealsmithfield:

"I'm sure the other posters will be along shortly to add anything they feel I have left out. I personally don't claim to be sorted but I will say my head has become a helluva lot straighter since I started posting here. You will receive a lot of wisdom but above all else the insights and advice given will 'always' be delivered with warmth and support."

poster GraceKellysLeftArm Tue 22-Dec-15 21:19:19
Surely that's not a good idea. All that evil concentrated in one place! We'd tip the world on its axis.

mwuhahaha

But thinking about it, we're not EVIL... we're a disappointment aren't we?

I'm sure a collective of disappointments will only slow the earth's rotation with the energy of the resounding TUT, rather than effect a huge displacement or shift of axes

Attila thanks for your advice. I'll try to answer you.

The people hosting the party have an awful lot to answer for, why are they holding such an event at all?

Because they always did and they were fun. I also think they truly regret the current family dynamic but unfortunately believe they are completely blameless. We will wait forever for any of them to apologise, but atm there's a chance of moving forward (however small) and I want to try. Things don't really 'kick off' in our family in the way you describe, although it's not unknown. But appearance is so important the tension tends to lie beneath so we're all hoping if we band together and force our jollity, we might get through it. It's worth trying.

But do they care about you - no, not bloody likely.

I meant I'd be letting my siblings and cousins down. I'm almost beyond caring about the people who have treated me badly, though of course I know that doesn't mean they can't still make me feel shit. I want to test the ground, see if I can keep them in perspective, as some of my siblings and cousins seem able to do.

Please reconsider but I will not write I told you so if you do attend and if it all goes pear shaped

thank you. I feel better able for them now. I understand I can't win with them and I understand it's my mere existence that they can't stand - the fact I've lived my life a certain way and turned away from them. So I hope I'll hold up. If not, I really don't think I'll crash they way I did a few years back. I'm no longer confused. Still very nervous though!

Random
But appearance is so important the tension tends to lie beneath so we're all hoping if we band together and force our jollity, we might get through it. It's worth trying

But haven't you all already been trying this, for the past X decades?

Of course it's your decision to go and if you feel you have to be there as moral support for your siblings/cousins, I can understand that. I just hate the thought of you making yourself miserable on account of a couple of old twats who couldn't give two tin shits about your welfare.

Do be aware that if you are starting to put up boundaries and be more assertive with people, some abusers will absolutely ramp up the nastiness to try to bring you back under their control. So be prepared with strategy on what to do in that case. I believe the perceived MN wisdom is to say "I won't spend time with someone who is so rude and cruel, so I'm leaving now". Although I personally prefer something pithy like "Did you have special training, or does being a massive cunt come naturally?"

I mostly lurk on these threads, but I just wanted a quick rant. Hope that's ok?

I haven't spoken to my mother for about a year now, since the last batch of drunken horrible texts describing me as the most awful child and human being in the universe.

A few weeks ago, she sent me a cheque for my birthday, in my maiden name, a name I haven't used for over 20 years. Today we got a parcel with some presents in. I don't want them. None of us want them. Why won't she leave us alone?

I am in therapy again due to the abusive and shitty childhood she gave me fucking my present day up. I just want to be left alone now. I'm tired of it all. A life without drama suits me beautifully. A life without drunken abusive text messages has been sorted, she no longer has my mobile number. We can't afford to move again.

Sorry, I just feel like a child again. Lost.

when I spoke to her about it and told her I feel hurt by it she hung up on me and now tells people I'm not speaking to her - is this a common tactic for abusers?

very common indeed. One of the warning signs that the person you're talking to is not reliable, is to see if / how they twist events when you know what actually happened.

Are you being insensitive? Unlikely, very unlikely, from what you've said here. 'oversensitive' is a stock putdown used by people who have senses of humour that involves being subtly nasty and denigrating other people. Funny how the other people don't like it. If you're not sure if you're oversensitive or not though, maybe ask a trusted, honest friend who has no agenda. (your mother has an agenda for sure, and it doesn't involve much of genuine love or care or acceptance).

Hi playswell. Post whenever you like.

Don't accept the presents, chuck them to a charity shop. Tear up the cheque.

. It sucks when someone is intent on being a shit and won't leave you alone. Especially when it's your own mother.

Hi Random,

re your comment:-

"Attila thanks for your advice. I'll try to answer you.

The people hosting the party have an awful lot to answer for, why are they holding such an event at all?

Because they always did and they were fun. I also think they truly regret the current family dynamic but unfortunately believe they are completely blameless. We will wait forever for any of them to apologise, but atm there's a chance of moving forward (however small) and I want to try".

Why do you think there is a chance, albeit small, of any movement forward?. Is the risk of you being wrong here worth taking?.

You wanting to try may well be your overall undoing. Toxic people never apologise nor accept any responsibility for their actions. Such people too are past masters of "come closer so I can hurt you again".

And what pocketsaviour wrote earlier too. Do bear all that in mind.

And today's message

So glad we got to clear the air on Monday but I must say that you have some wrong ideas but we are where we are. I'll speak with the dc on Christmas Day. Wish I could have been with you but as I'm never invited. ..sigh

Bet you can guess how many times we have bent over backwards to accommodate dm. As for clearing the air I didn't get started. No point.

Don't feel anyway guilty though. My first thought was odfod!

Thanks Meer and 5hearts for the wise words My dh and closest friend know everything that's happened and what's been said and both keep telling me that I'm definitely not being oversensitive and that shes a nasty vindictive witch but it's so hard to get my head around. This is what I've been told my entire life and now it seems like either everything is a lie or I've manipulated these people with my horrid personality so that they are afraid to tell me the truth. My PILs know a little bit and have commented a few times that my mum is odd but I don't know what they say between themselves iyswim! There are quite a lot of people who always take her side - she's a real pillar of the community and very helpful to other family members so they can't understand that she could be so hurtful towards me.

5hearts I hope your counselling helps you. I had counselling a few years ago for something else but the subject of my family kept coming up and my counsellor said a few times that it seemed like a lot of my issues stemmed from childhood. I didn't feel ready to go into it at the time but it's something I'm considering in the new year.

Thank you pocketsaviour and Attila - I will bear your words in mind. Thank you so much for taking the time to respond.

Positive vibes and a happy peaceful christmas to all.

Hi everyone,

I saw this thread mentioned in another one. Haven't read it all but I thought maybe you wouldn't mind me posting. When I was growing up my mother was an emotionally abusive not-very-functional alcoholic and I was a very sensitive and literal-minded child, which was not the best combination. I've got a very shaky sense of self-worth after being told repeatedly that I'm 'not a real person' and that things would be better if I'd never been born, among many other things. Also that my (very mild, physical) disability was God punishing my mother.

Anyway. I've had a bit of counselling and I'm better than I used to be. I'm also NC with my mother, which helps immensely. But, due to the way the rest of the family does things, I have no choice but to see her Christmas morning. She likes to give me lots of gifts (in her mind, buying things for someone excuses treating them poorly, so I wish she wouldn't) and play happy families, and generally treat me like a child (I'm almost 30.) This used to ruin Christmas for me. Now, I don't let it, and I have my Christmas celebration with my immediate family on the 24th.

I guess my question is if anyone has any tips for keeping my inner calm on the day and not slipping into old patterns (ie. responding like a child when she talks to me like one, and getting hurt/emotional as a result).

in haste - would seeing her as a stranger help? stepping back in your mind, observing her and her behaviour as if she was a stranger and you were meeting her for the first time. Even as if she was a client / customer at work. It may mean treating her coolly, but better than getting drawn in to the emotional maze with her.

It does mean that you need to be able to be very aware the whole time that she is around, which isn't easy at all. Means you can't completely relax.

other than that, plenty of escapes to the toilet for a few mins' deep breaths.

That's a really good idea, Meer. I'm usually able to deal with difficult people at work without getting emotionally involved, and trying to look at her from a distance instead of as 'my mother' with all the associated baggage that carries might help.

I can never really relax around her but being very aware and focused is much better than being anxious and jittery, so I'll definitely give it a try. And yes, frequent short escapes! Thank you so much for suggesting it. :)

Sofiria

I think the rest of your family (I presume you are talking about your family of origin) need to find a different way of doing things.

You are incorrect in one respect - you do have a choice. Why should a nice person like you put yourself in the firing line of some toxic relation?. You would not have tolerated any of this from a friend, family are really no different.

Do you really need to see her at all, what would it achieve for you?.

What are the rest of these people like with regards to your mother. Do they all just enable her thus giving them a false sense of control along with abdicating her from the responsibility for her actions?.

Everyone tiptoeing around the alcoholic yet again does not help anyone. Can you trust her to be actually sober for the duration?. Such people's thoughts centre more often than not on where the next drink is coming from. She may well be already drunk and may become obnoxious over the course of the day.

If you are no contact with your mother seeing her at all on Christmas day may well put you back some considerable time in terms of your overall recovery.

Frequent toilet breaks may in themselves not be enough. If you do attend (and again I would urge you not to go but would understand completely if you did) ensure that you make firm and consistent boundaries in your head before you arrive there. At the first sign of bother you walk out of there and not look back.

Attila - I wish they could find a different way of doing things! Whenever I've suggested it in previous years, though, I've been criticized for being difficult and holding on to things from the past.

In a way, I was too successful as a child - I was the eldest and did my best to shield my younger siblings from my mother, to the point where I remember telling her when I was 12 or so that if she wanted to say unkind things she should say them to me and not to 'the children' who were too young and would be hurt by it. I was the one making sure everyone was fed and had clean clothes for school and such so I didn't see myself as a child - but anyway, the point being that because I protected them they have very different recollections of childhood and a more positive view of my mother.

I'm glad they're not as messed up as I am? It's just hard not to be believed. Add to that a seriously old-fashioned view of mental health in my extended family - I was diagnosed with clinical depression in my later teens and was told that I wasn't allowed to call it 'depression' because that was making too much of it, and if I wanted to mention it I should say 'feeling annoyed' - and there's no sympathy for my views. Everyone is supposed to ignore any vodka bottles poking out of mother's handbag on Christmas morning because making a fuss about someone's alcoholism is worse than being an alcoholic. She's not drunk every Christmas, but when she is it's awful.

Ugh. I'm sorry, I'm ranting. You're right, I get absolutely nothing out of contact with her. I don't think I can avoid it this year (although you're right to say it's a choice, and better for me if I frame it that way as then I have the choice to leave when I want, too) but I'll be spending as little time as possible around her and just walking out if she starts making hurtful comments. Thank you so much for the reminder that I shouldn't have to put up with that, and don't have to - it's easier to deal with if I know I can walk away at any time.

Hello Sasha,

Sorry you didn't get a reply last night. My son arrived last night to stay for Xmas so I wasn't on and I think most people are in a similar situation. I'm off to work shortly (boo hiss!) for what I think will be a quiet day, so I'll try to post a bit later.

But in very brief, your sister and your mum SUCK and I'm sorry you have this vile pair causing you pain.

Sasha

Its not you, its them. Its not your fault they are the ways you are; you did not cause that to happen.

This may be helpful to you re going no contact:-

www.lightshouse.org/how-to-go-no-contact.html#axzz3vDoRQMLl

If either of these people send anything do not acknowledge the "gift" (such is sent often with unwritten condition attached) and give it to the charity shop. You do not need such people in your life continuously making you the scapegoat for their inherent ills.

Sasha,

You've acted reasonably throughout. This is because you are a reasonable person unlike them.

Talking to them won't make a hill of beans difference I am sorry to say. Also the weapon of choice for such toxic people is for them to further attack when confronted. The only truth they will accept is their own warped view of reality; they are really two peas in a pod. I daresay also that your mother sees a lot of your dad in you and uses that to further despise you as well (she certainly despised him). I also wonder whether there is a scapegoat/golden child dynamic going on in your family of origin as well, it could well be so. People from dysfunctional families end up playing roles. You seem to be very much the scapegoat for their inherent ills whilst your sister is favoured. However, such favour does not come without price but your sister is unaware of this.

It will also do your son no favours at all for him to keep on seeing his mum being so disrespected all the time by his nan and aunt. Are your ILs nice; if so I would concentrate my efforts of them. Quality rather than quantity.

Would you consider seeing a therapist; my caveat re this is that you need to find someone who has NO (repeat NO) bias about keeping families together despite the presence of mistreatment.

Sofiria

The 3cs re alcoholism are:-

You did not cause it
You cannot control it
You cannot cure it

You always have a choice re them and if it at all kicks off the best thing you can do is to get your coat and leave them to it. That's a small but significant boundary you can do. In many such dysfunctional family systems the alcoholic is often "protected" by enablers and that is likely also what is happening here.

You may also want to contact Nacoa as they may be able to help you further www.nacoa.org.uk/adults.html

Until I joined MN. I had no idea there were so many fellow suffers.

When others say how will you feel when she is dead, I say "relieved".

I had no tools for dealing with her, and at 70 I am finally free. She was admitted to hospital and for 6 weeks she just lay there unable to speak. I did what I felt I had to, visited every day. Lots of time to think over the past years. I am not sorry that I did not go NC, but I do regret that I was not able to see her for what she really was until it was too late.

She poisoned everything, told wonderful lies, was so eloquent in her martyrdom that my whole family would have ostericised me. Only now do I realise that would have not been a loss.

I wish you all a happy Christmas and the strength to do what is right for you.

Sasha
The problem you have here is that you are a nice, reasonable person, and you are expecting your mum and sister to react to your nice, reasonable overtures in a nice, reasonable way.

Unfortunately, they are not nice people. They are very nasty people whose main joy in life comes from abusing others, and you are the most handy target.

I know what it is like to keep hoping against hope that if you can just do the right thing, or say the right words, that they will suddenly become normal and you can have a loving relationship that most people have with their family. But it's never going to happen.

Your DH sounds like he has his head screwed on right. Your DC will not suffer for lack of horrible bullies being in their lives! Develop strong bonds between your DC and your DH's family if you can; but honestly DC do not NEED grandparents or aunties or uncles. What they do need is to see their mum show them that we do not take shit from people who are nasty to us.

Florentina enjoy your freedom (at last)

florentina Better late than never in terms of the FOG lifting. I'm glad you have some peace now.