"But we took you to Stately Homes!" Survivors of Dysfunctional Families

[OnceAMeerNotAlwaysAMeer]

It's November '15, and the Stately Home is still open to visitors.

Forerunning threads:
December 2007
March 2008
August 2008
February 2009
May 2009
January 2010
April 2010
August 2010
March 2011
November 2011
January 2012
November 2012
January 2013
March 2013
August 2013
December 2013
February 2014
April 2014
July 2014
Oct 14 – Dec 14
Dec 14 – March 15
March - Nov 2015

Welcome to the Stately Homes Thread.

This is a long running thread which was originally started up by 'pages' see original thread here (December 2007)

So this thread originates from that thread and has become a safe haven for Adult children of abusive families.

One thing you will never hear on this thread is that your abuse or experience was not that bad. You will never have your feelings minimised the way they were when you were a child, or now that you are an adult. To coin the phrase of a much respected past poster Ally90;

'Nobody can judge how sad your childhood made you, even if you wrote a novel on it, only you know that. I can well imagine any of us saying some of the seemingly trivial things our parents/ siblings did to us to many of our real life acquaintances and them not understanding why we were upset/ angry/ hurt etc. And that is why this thread is here. It's a safe place to vent our true feelings, validate our childhood/ lifetime experiences of being hurt/ angry etc by our parents behaviour and to get support for dealing with family in the here and now.'

Most new posters generally start off their posts by saying; but it wasn't that bad for me or my experience wasn't as awful as x,y or z's.

Some on here have been emotionally abused and/ or physically abused. Some are not sure what category (there doesn't have to be any) they fall into.

NONE of that matters. What matters is how 'YOU' felt growing up, how 'YOU' feel now and a chance to talk about how and why those childhood experiences and/ or current parental contact, has left you feeling damaged, falling apart from the inside out and stumbling around trying to find your sense of self-worth.

You might also find the following links and information useful, if you have come this far and are still not sure whether you belong here or not.

'Toxic Parents' by Susan Forward.

I started with this book and found it really useful.

Here are some excerpts:

"Once you get going, most toxic parents will counterattack. After all, if they had the capacity to listen, to hear, to be reasonable, to respect your feelings, and to promote your independence, they wouldn't be toxic parents. They will probably perceive your words as treacherous personal assaults. They will tend to fall back on the same tactics and defences that they have always used, only more so.

Remember, the important thing is not their reaction but your response. If you can stand fast in the face of your parents' fury, accusations, threats and guilt-peddling, you will experience your finest hour.

Here are some typical parental reactions to confrontation:

"It never happened". Parents who have used denial to avoid their own feelings of inadequacy or anxiety, will undoubtedly use it during confrontation, to promote their version of reality. They'll insist that your allegations never happened, or that you're exaggerating. They won't remember, or they will accuse you of lying.

YOUR RESPONSE: Just because you don't remember, doesn't mean it didn't happen".

"It was your fault." Toxic parents are almost never willing to accept responsibility for their destructive behaviour. Instead, they will blame you. They will say that you were bad, or that you were difficult. They will claim that they did the best that they could but that you always created problems for them. They will say that you drove them crazy. They will offer as proof, the fact that everybody in the family knew what a problem you were. They will offer up a laundry list of your alleged offences against them.

YOUR RESPONSE: "You can keep trying to make this my fault, but I'm not going to accept the responsibility for what you did to me, when I was a child".

"I said I was sorry what more do you want?" Some parents may acknowledge a few of the things that you say but be unwilling to do anything about it.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate your apology, but that is just a beginning. If you're truly sorry, you'll work through this with me, to make a better relationship."

"We did the best we could." Some parents will remind you of how tough they had it while you were growing up and how hard they struggled. They will say such things as "You'll never understand what I was going through," or "I did the best I could". This particular style of response will often stir up a lot of sympathy and compassion for your parents. This is understandable, but it makes it difficult for you to remain focused on what you need to say in your confrontation. The temptation is for you once again to put their needs ahead of your own. It is important that you be able to acknowledge their difficulties, without invalidating your own.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I understand that you had a hard time, and I'm sure that you didn't hurt me on purpose, but I need you to understand that the way you dealt with your problems really did hurt me"

"Look what we did for you." Many parents will attempt to counter your assertions by recalling the wonderful times you had as a child and the loving moments you and they shared. By focusing on the good things, they can avoid looking at the darker side of their behaviour. Parents will typically remind you of gifts they gave you, places they took you, sacrifices they made for you, and thoughtful things they did. They will say things like, "this is the thanks we get" or "nothing was ever enough for you."

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate those things very much, but they didn't make up for ...."

"How can you do this to me?" Some parents act like martyrs. They'll collapse into tears, wring their hands, and express shock and disbelief at your "cruelty". They will act as if your confrontation has victimized them. They will accuse you of hurting them, or disappointing them. They will complain that they don't need this, they have enough problems. They will tell you that they are not strong enough or healthy enough to take this, that the heartache will kill them. Some of their sadness will, of course, be genuine. It is sad for parents to face their own shortcomings, to realise that they have caused their children significant pain. But their sadness can also be manipulative and controlling. It is their way of using guilt to try to make you back down from the confrontation.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I'm sorry you're upset. I'm sorry you're hurt. But I'm not willing to give up on this. I've been hurting for a long time, too."

Helpful Websites

Alice Miller

Personality Disorders definition

More helpful links:

Daughters of narcissistic mothers
Out of the FOG
You carry the cure in your own heart
Help for adult children of child abuse
Pete Walker

Some books:

Homecoming
Will I ever be good enough?
If you had controlling parents
When you and your mother can't be friends
Children of the self-absorbed
Recovery of your inner child

This final quote is from smithfield posting as therealsmithfield:

"I'm sure the other posters will be along shortly to add anything they feel I have left out. I personally don't claim to be sorted but I will say my head has become a helluva lot straighter since I started posting here. You will receive a lot of wisdom but above all else the insights and advice given will 'always' be delivered with warmth and support."

No contact with dm or her henchman meery, I did allow contact/another chance when do had an accident 6 months later, but still there was no acknowledgement of the incident, no apology to my son, and a general bulldozing of "when you are out of hospital, I'll come and stay to help" without actually asking me if I wanted or needed any help, just a presumption. I communicated back to dm and sis that I wasn't comfortable giving carte Blanche for Dm to stay in my home when there had been neither acknowledgement nor apology for the last time.

Even then I got radio silence, so I left it.

She sent a sad little text at ds birthday time, and I told her that until she apologised for having been so cruel to me, and so bloody awful to me and my son by terrorising us and refusing to leave that I wasn't prepared to talk to her and that no further contact would be accepted.

At the time of the move, I said that I was bewildered and deeply hurt. Among other things her comment was "well we were never that close"

We used to talk every day! See each other 2,3 or 4 times a week! Then my ex left and basically so did she... becquse I was hurting and she somehow enjoyed hurting me more.

Having had my ex back in the uk for the summer, seeing how he is - still- and how he'll never change, seeing how he backed her up somehow, basically forming affinity with anyone who puts me back in a place they want me in has really open d my eyes, there is no hope for any of them, no going back.

I do now speak to my sister, but I dont trust her. She can't compute the behaviour of my mother toward me and my ds, and neither can I tbh, but until her eyes are opened (or my Dm and her h are dead) I won't be able to trust her

Just because I can...

Hello to everyone who's popped in over the last couple of days.

Xmas is so hard in navigating these dysfunctional dynamics.

Bear in mind, the attempts at contact and control at this time of year ramp up because the abusers CANNOT stand the idea that people are judging them or questioning why their DCs/DGCs are not visiting for Xmas, etc.

Hence they send out the flying monkeys at this time of year to try to bring the "lost sheep" (that's us ) back to the fold, so that they can go on pretending that they are a normal family with loving parents instead of some fucked up shit that has driven us all to go NC rather than tolerate their abuse any longer.

Random I'm with Atilla - do anything you can to get out of this visit. Why have you agreed to see them? If you really cannot cancel this year, then make yourself a promise that this is the last time. The last time you'll sit and swallow your pain and fear and rage, and allow these people to harm you, in the name of perpetuating the myth of their perfect family.

Squeezes both hissy and atilla.

Think my mother had her operation to remove the tumor yesterday. Was expecting an e mail or something but nothing yet.

Feel like a bit of a hard cow, but I suppose that's part and parcel of nc. My mother is an expert in making herself look blameless to others. Victimhood and martyrdom are her go to stances in life.
Can be hard to accept sometimes that she prefers it like that than making up and having a relationship, she prefers the drama. An she'd rather be alone than admit wrong and have a quiet happy life.

Attila Thanks for the link. As someone with a very rudimentary knowledge of Autism ( never having read up on it as I've had no need to ), if someone had asked me what I think it is I would've said something like; It's a condition with a large spectrum whereby some people can function more normally with their behaviours than others. Some people may come across oddly due to their inability to express emotions appropriately or interact with others effectively.....or words to that effect. So if my lack of knowledge on the subject inadvertently offends people then that's hard lines. I'm hardly going out of my way to upset people as you can tell.

Anyways, having been on the other thread where women are married to men with autism, I can certainly see how there could be an overlap with Autism/Aspergers, emotional abuse and a personality disorder. Women on there are really suffering! It sounds bloody awful. No woman should have to end up on meds just to get by but that's what's happening with some.

I'm gonna stop banging on about autism now, cos that's not wot this thread is about. Just pertaining to a family member I was referring to...I would imagine back in the 50s and 60s there wasn't the knowledge about the condition, let alone the diagnostic tools available so there must surely be lots of older people out there, who come across as just plain odd, but have an actual undiagnosed condition. I think that's fair to say. So I'm surmising there's at least 1 person in my " ex-family " with it and the rest, I reckon, have personality disorders or are just plain f!%/ed up and toxic! Phew

Long time lurker in Stately Homes. Just wanted to make myself known, and say thank you for the thread. The FOG link and personality types link have helped me make sense of my past and informed me for my present.

It's nice to have a place where I would be believed if I said that family aren't always nice people.

GraceKelly - did you have to move house in the end? I have thought of that a few times but the thought of moving again is depressing changing the DC's schools etc.

I would love to not have that knot in my stomach every birthday or Easter or Christmas, that they will descend on me..

I have had cards from my sister that start off nice then there it is the insult!!!, like the letter I received from my M, saying its my fault and that I know how to upset people!!! I can't say too much for the fear of outing myself.

So everyone, what advice would you give me for getting through it all?? Its been over a year that I have been NC. I should have done it years ago and done it all myself, the childcare etc, instead of relying on D and M to help me with the children and stayed living up North instead of listening to M telling me to come back home.

I may not be in the position I am in now. But hindsight is a wonderful thing.

There are day I thin, is it my fault am I being mad?? Am I being super sensitive as I always get accused of? Then I have to wake up and say no you are free you put up with it for years, I am an adult and I can walk away.

Busy in here this morning! That's the Christmas holidays coming up . Hello everyone!

random, I would agree with Atilla et al that your best bet is not to go! You deserve a nice Christmas, we all do. But if you are going I would say

• make sure you have a way of getting out at short notice. Don't stay over, and make sure you have transport out of there if needed.

• maybe try to see their abusive bullshit as an object of study? Somebody over on the ACoN reddit is doing narcississtic mum bingo over there right now and it's kind of funny/tragic. DH and I, when I was still in contact with my mother, used to compare at the end of the day and try to find the most outrageous example.

goodtobetter, you're not a hard cow. You're really not.

I got a bunch of cards from mother in the post yesterday, big fancy ones with overblown verses inside as usual, she prefers to let the cards do the talking for her as she couldn't summon up a genuine loving emotion if she tried. Opened them in case there was money in them (in which case I would have donated to the Red Cross, we have a lot of refugees here) but there was just a request to "send address so I can send the girls' presents". Not a chance. Just looking forward to the mail redirection from our old place lapsing so there's no more way for her to make contact. She could of course ask any of the approx. 10,000 cousins I have to message me on FB but that would involve admitting we have a less than perfect family situation and there's no way she'll do that. My mother is a bit different to some of yours', she can't stand being part of drama and will do anything to preserve the illusion of the perfect family, up to and including believing in it herself.
(Cards are in the bin now.)

Thank you everyone who took time to reply. I'll be seeing them at a larger family party which hasn't happened the past few years because of family fall-outs, but which were a staple of life when I was growing up. I see now there was always tension bubbling away but at the time I thought it was just me being weird.

I've decided to go because I get on with the people hosting the party, although others of my siblings and cousins don't. We all have different problems with different family members and most of us will attend. It's quite bizarre really and I won't go into detail but over half of the older generation have behaved disgracefully to all of us in one way or another. So there's a measure of safety in numbers for us. If I go it will dilute the effect being there will have for others and vice versa, IYSWIM.

I admit I am worried it will set me back which I think is why I posted here finally. But if I don't go I'll feel I'm letting down a lot of people I care about. It's far harder for my cousins because they have these awful problems with their parents (my parents aren't involved). Cousins are LC with their parents but still really want a relationship. My being there makes that somewhat more possible, i think, although I doubt it will happen now tbh. We've all agreed to meet up beforehand and stagger our arrival so none of us are left like sitting ducks.

toomuch I love that bingo game. I might make up a version for my lot!

GoodtoBetter!!!!

How lovely to see you! Sorry about the cancer thing, I read back... As my son said when my dad texted us about Christmas and how he was too ill to buy/deliver presents himself this year ... It's a bit me me me isn't it mummy...

I take it you didn't reply? There is no point love, we can't open that door again.

Oh how I'd love for us all here to be around a great big table together or better slouched in enormously cuddly sofas all sitting and chatting - we've all been through so very much together and never ever met.

I saw that thread link you posted, God that did ring some bells huh? That was scarily similar... Wonder how that will all pan out...

Hi randomcatname,

re your comment:-
"I've decided to go because I get on with the people hosting the party, although others of my siblings and cousins don't"

The people hosting the party have an awful lot to answer for, why are they holding such an event at all?.

Your above reason is frankly no good reason for actually attending. It will likely kick off at some point during proceedings, someone will say something and it will all descend very quickly from there. The toxic ingredients are already all there; just add in food and drink for good measure and boom!.

I sincerely hope I am wrong here re an above potential outcome because anything could happen but you really do need to reconsider this whole idea. This could be memorable for all the wrong reasons.

What do you get out of going to this perhaps apart from some feeling of meeting some obligation?.

Re your comment:-
"So there's a measure of safety in numbers for us. If I go it will dilute the effect being there will have for others and vice versa, IYSWIM".

What you may well find instead that if/when you are being ganged up on, everyone else will look the other way. The damage will happen right in front of their very eyes. No-one will then defend you for fears of being got at themselves.

Re this from you also:-
"I admit I am worried it will set me back which I think is why I posted here finally. But if I don't go I'll feel I'm letting down a lot of people I care about"

But do they care about you - no, not bloody likely. This is really the obligation part of your own FOG talking here (fear and guilt being two of many other legacies that such adult children are left by toxic parents and or other relatives). Going will put you right back to day 1 when you first went no contact and you will again have to rebuild. It could set you right back.

Playing bullshit bingo with toxic relatives gets old very quickly.

Please reconsider but I will not write I told you so if you do attend and if it all goes pear shaped.

Attila's Christmas Message:-

and to all the fellow Stately Homers. My only regret is that they are only but virtual. I would dearly like to meet all of you.

I have my MIL visiting us on the 26th; I am not looking forward to it at all because she has no conversation at all or an opinion on anything. She basically sits there and gawps at DH whilst her mouth mimes what he is saying. I suppose she is going to say to us (well she has said this to practically everyone she knows) that last year Christmas simply passed her by. (FIL was terminally ill at that time but her callousness really holds no bounds).

Next Christmas the Meerkat family are going back to Florida!. We would have gone this year but there is no more leave left.

I will raise a glass to you all on the 25th!.

big squeeze to Hissy - right back at ya!

And the Christmas advert that makes me feel most sad is the Silver Line charity ad for 2014 called Visiting Gramps (its on Youtube). John Lewis has nothing on that.

My very best wishes to you all.

Maybe we should have a meet up next year...at a Statley Home.

Or a Stately home even....

Wishing you a very happy Christmas lovely Atilla and I'm sure you'll deal admirably with mil on Boxing Day

And a very happy Christmas to all you Stately-Homers, may your Yuletides be toxin-free

As I don't see my M, my DBs host her for Christmas; DB1 and his DW have done so for the past five years, as SIL2 has refused to have her there. However, this year she is going to DB2 and sil2's ; and SIL2 said to SIL1 "that's my Christmas present to you!' SiL1 is so grateful not to have this thoroughly unpleasant and self-centred horrible woman ruining her Christmas, and said that it was not only the best present she could have received, but that it's also a great present for the rest of her household. Because my M's absolute speciality is to ruin Christmas as well as all other family events. Needs to make it all about her all the time.

Apparently M would rather go to DB1's though, and said to DB2 "the last time I came to you for Christmas I was home before the queens speech started". Yes. True. Because she stormed out. Before lunch was even served. Because her presents weren't nice enough, (not as nice as her little grandchildren received) she was either given an inadequate stocking or didn't get one, and because my brother was spending too much time in the kitchen 'cooking too many vegetables'.

Thank goodness I'm well out of it and will merely have the job of commiserating with DB2 and sil2 when it all goes tits-up.

Merry Christmas everyone! Been meaning to post for a while but pregnancy means I'm so tired in the evenings so I haven't quite got round to it. It seems this time of year bring about lots of crap behaviour and the anxiety that goes with it.

I've been seeing my therapist for a good few weeks now and she has helped me come to terms with my decision to go NC. Unfortunately the flying monkeys are out and word is definitely around the family. It seems I'm not the only victim of toxic parenting as a relative has recently confided in my that she has been through a very similar upbringing to me. I'm going to be very careful about what I say as I have no idea who I can trust thanks to the fact that we were NC with all of them throughout my childhood. What a mess.

My mum has been messaging me constantly as if nothing has happened, mostly telling me what presents she has bought the DC for Christmas and about how she is sending money. I don't understand how one person can be so delusional. Therapist thinks my dad has NPD based on what I've told her. It feels good to finally realise after a lifetime of this crap that it is NOT MY FAULT.

to all. Merry Christmas!

welcome jamhot

wishing everyone a measure of peace this christmas

Keep a look out for a decent hotel groupon or something, and count me in... We could create our new family!

Surely that's not a good idea. All that evil concentrated in one place! We'd tip the world on its axis.

Hissy I did reply as I felt I had to, for me iyswim. I wrote more or less:
"I'm really sorry to hear your news but it's good the consultant is so positive and it's been found so early, it sounds like you are in good hands." And sent her a couple of pictures (she'd asked for them). She wrote back "thank you for the beautiful photos. I can't believe how grown up they look". And that's it.
I'm glad it's not gone any further than that, but I find it totally incomprehensible that she's happy to leave it like that. Can't begin to understand what goes on in her head.
This week cards with money arrived for the kids for Christmas. That I am ignoring (especially as they were sent to the old address) because there is no response really that will not involve a load more shit and I don't want to open the whole where's granny can of worms with the kids really.

Found this on FB and thought some of you would appreciate it.

Good morning everyone and happy Xmas eve eve

I am being very careful about what I post on here as I don't want to out myself but I so wish I could post in detail about things my family do just so I could get a straight yes or no answer on if it's my fault or theirs. I'm going to stay nc for my own sanity and having thought a lot for the last few days I'm not going to let them see my dcs either because m will take any opportunity to undermine me with them and say upsetting things to them.

We won't be seeing them at Xmas anyway as one of the things she does is excluding us from family events, when I spoke to her about it and told her I feel hurt by it she hung up on me and now tells people I'm not speaking to her - is this a common tactic for abusers? I am expecting her to call in the next few days acting like nothing has happened and if I was to mention it again she will say I am causing trouble and being oversensitive, upsetting them and ruining their Xmas. Having read a lot on here I know that toxic people do things like this to keep people in their place and make them think it is their fault and that they are imagining things but is it always that way or is it possible that that person actually is being oversensitive? It feels like she is refusing to have a discussion with me over the latest thing after I told her her actions hurt me and I can't see how it can not be abusive but I am really struggling not to doubt myself. There have been so many examples of this type of behaviour and it always follows this pattern - she never apologises or listens to what I have to say and it will always be my fault somehow.

Morning Genericusername1

Like you I don't like to post specific examples either but I definitely have enough examples to see a clear pattern now and see through the lies and manipulation. It is DH's family who are dysfunctional (mine have been too but in a completely different and more obvious way - parents are both dead now - which probably explains why his family being like this has affected me so much).

I really struggle with the guilt of our boundaries still though and despite all the evidence and DH agreeing entirely (although really hates to discuss any of it now) I still question my interpretation of it all. I spend ages watching youtube videos/reading this thread/researching the odd family dynamic - that helped to understand to start with but now it isn't helping at all. I seem to be stuck in the cycle of looking for validation and it being on my mind far too much.

DH has called his parents out a couple of times but knows not to bother now. They deny everything and don't apologise because they don't accept what he is saying. MIL realised that she has 100% been caught out with a lie once at a family event - we let it go but she couldn't. She rang me up the next day with a lie to cover that lie. Why?!

From our experience I would say there is no point bringing anything back up. They won't change. The first step to recovery is accepting that and then making peace with your boundaries - whether that is NC or LC or something else. I'm no expert though! I've decided to see a counsellor in the new year to stop me focussing on this so much and shift my energies back on to the things that will bring happiness.