"But we took you to Stately Homes!" Survivors of Dysfunctional Families

[OnceAMeerNotAlwaysAMeer]

It's November '15, and the Stately Home is still open to visitors.

Forerunning threads:
December 2007
March 2008
August 2008
February 2009
May 2009
January 2010
April 2010
August 2010
March 2011
November 2011
January 2012
November 2012
January 2013
March 2013
August 2013
December 2013
February 2014
April 2014
July 2014
Oct 14 – Dec 14
Dec 14 – March 15
March - Nov 2015

Welcome to the Stately Homes Thread.

This is a long running thread which was originally started up by 'pages' see original thread here (December 2007)

So this thread originates from that thread and has become a safe haven for Adult children of abusive families.

One thing you will never hear on this thread is that your abuse or experience was not that bad. You will never have your feelings minimised the way they were when you were a child, or now that you are an adult. To coin the phrase of a much respected past poster Ally90;

'Nobody can judge how sad your childhood made you, even if you wrote a novel on it, only you know that. I can well imagine any of us saying some of the seemingly trivial things our parents/ siblings did to us to many of our real life acquaintances and them not understanding why we were upset/ angry/ hurt etc. And that is why this thread is here. It's a safe place to vent our true feelings, validate our childhood/ lifetime experiences of being hurt/ angry etc by our parents behaviour and to get support for dealing with family in the here and now.'

Most new posters generally start off their posts by saying; but it wasn't that bad for me or my experience wasn't as awful as x,y or z's.

Some on here have been emotionally abused and/ or physically abused. Some are not sure what category (there doesn't have to be any) they fall into.

NONE of that matters. What matters is how 'YOU' felt growing up, how 'YOU' feel now and a chance to talk about how and why those childhood experiences and/ or current parental contact, has left you feeling damaged, falling apart from the inside out and stumbling around trying to find your sense of self-worth.

You might also find the following links and information useful, if you have come this far and are still not sure whether you belong here or not.

'Toxic Parents' by Susan Forward.

I started with this book and found it really useful.

Here are some excerpts:

"Once you get going, most toxic parents will counterattack. After all, if they had the capacity to listen, to hear, to be reasonable, to respect your feelings, and to promote your independence, they wouldn't be toxic parents. They will probably perceive your words as treacherous personal assaults. They will tend to fall back on the same tactics and defences that they have always used, only more so.

Remember, the important thing is not their reaction but your response. If you can stand fast in the face of your parents' fury, accusations, threats and guilt-peddling, you will experience your finest hour.

Here are some typical parental reactions to confrontation:

"It never happened". Parents who have used denial to avoid their own feelings of inadequacy or anxiety, will undoubtedly use it during confrontation, to promote their version of reality. They'll insist that your allegations never happened, or that you're exaggerating. They won't remember, or they will accuse you of lying.

YOUR RESPONSE: Just because you don't remember, doesn't mean it didn't happen".

"It was your fault." Toxic parents are almost never willing to accept responsibility for their destructive behaviour. Instead, they will blame you. They will say that you were bad, or that you were difficult. They will claim that they did the best that they could but that you always created problems for them. They will say that you drove them crazy. They will offer as proof, the fact that everybody in the family knew what a problem you were. They will offer up a laundry list of your alleged offences against them.

YOUR RESPONSE: "You can keep trying to make this my fault, but I'm not going to accept the responsibility for what you did to me, when I was a child".

"I said I was sorry what more do you want?" Some parents may acknowledge a few of the things that you say but be unwilling to do anything about it.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate your apology, but that is just a beginning. If you're truly sorry, you'll work through this with me, to make a better relationship."

"We did the best we could." Some parents will remind you of how tough they had it while you were growing up and how hard they struggled. They will say such things as "You'll never understand what I was going through," or "I did the best I could". This particular style of response will often stir up a lot of sympathy and compassion for your parents. This is understandable, but it makes it difficult for you to remain focused on what you need to say in your confrontation. The temptation is for you once again to put their needs ahead of your own. It is important that you be able to acknowledge their difficulties, without invalidating your own.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I understand that you had a hard time, and I'm sure that you didn't hurt me on purpose, but I need you to understand that the way you dealt with your problems really did hurt me"

"Look what we did for you." Many parents will attempt to counter your assertions by recalling the wonderful times you had as a child and the loving moments you and they shared. By focusing on the good things, they can avoid looking at the darker side of their behaviour. Parents will typically remind you of gifts they gave you, places they took you, sacrifices they made for you, and thoughtful things they did. They will say things like, "this is the thanks we get" or "nothing was ever enough for you."

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate those things very much, but they didn't make up for ...."

"How can you do this to me?" Some parents act like martyrs. They'll collapse into tears, wring their hands, and express shock and disbelief at your "cruelty". They will act as if your confrontation has victimized them. They will accuse you of hurting them, or disappointing them. They will complain that they don't need this, they have enough problems. They will tell you that they are not strong enough or healthy enough to take this, that the heartache will kill them. Some of their sadness will, of course, be genuine. It is sad for parents to face their own shortcomings, to realise that they have caused their children significant pain. But their sadness can also be manipulative and controlling. It is their way of using guilt to try to make you back down from the confrontation.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I'm sorry you're upset. I'm sorry you're hurt. But I'm not willing to give up on this. I've been hurting for a long time, too."

Helpful Websites

Alice Miller

Personality Disorders definition

More helpful links:

Daughters of narcissistic mothers
Out of the FOG
You carry the cure in your own heart
Help for adult children of child abuse
Pete Walker

Some books:

Homecoming
Will I ever be good enough?
If you had controlling parents
When you and your mother can't be friends
Children of the self-absorbed
Recovery of your inner child

This final quote is from smithfield posting as therealsmithfield:

"I'm sure the other posters will be along shortly to add anything they feel I have left out. I personally don't claim to be sorted but I will say my head has become a helluva lot straighter since I started posting here. You will receive a lot of wisdom but above all else the insights and advice given will 'always' be delivered with warmth and support."

"I just don't want him to make a mistake he later regrets"

Its not about you; he has a choice and he has made a decision here. Please never think this could be some mistake on his part because it is not. His only regret may well be that he did not cut contact with them a lot earlier. Why should the rights of his parents ever trump his at all?. He was but a child when all this started; it was never his fault in the first place. The fault lies completely with his parents. You are going to have to accept this decision from him, please do your utmost to be fully there for him because that will matter. You will get your head around it given time and more reading on this subject.

I see you are now having the full force of the flying monkeys descending upon you; I would suggest you roundly ignore all such attempts from these people to draw you all back into this dysfunction. They are only acting in their own self interest, certainly not in yours as a family unit.

Clearly you are indeed from an emotionally healthy family where this type of familial dysfunction is thankfully completely unknown to you. It is very, very hard for people from such families to accept the idea that some families are indeed unhealthy and dysfunctional but they are out there.

His parents know full well why their son has chosen to cut contact but they are not interested. They have not acknowledged their wrongdoings and will not do so either. They do not deserve an explanation because they will not accept this from him.

Some people are not missed when they die either; he may feel some sense of relief. I certainly feel that way about my late FIL. Does anyone ever ask parents estranged from their kids, “how are you going to feel if your son or daughter dies?”. Judging by the way his parents have acted, they won’t feel anything. Do not judge him further if he decides not to attend their funerals.

As for their notion that they did their best, I give you this excerpt from Toxic Parents:-

"Many parents will attempt to counter your assertions by recalling the wonderful times you had as a child and the loving moments you and they shared. By focusing on the good things, they can avoid looking at the darker side of their behaviour. Parents will typically remind you of gifts they gave you, places they took you, sacrifices they made for you, and thoughtful things they did. They will say things like, "this is the thanks we get" or "nothing was ever enough for you."

Read the book and do you part also in protecting your family unit from these malign influences.

Belatedly checking in. It's the first year I'm NC with DM, and I'm struggling a bit

Why are you struggling; how can I help?.

Thanks Attila.

It's partly a matter of being cast out for calling DM out on her dispicible, toxic behaviour. And partly a matter of accepting that she's not going to change and my life is better without her in it.

I'm mostly there in terms of reconciling these within myself, but there's a lingering sadness due to not having a DM who is able to recognise that she's lost me and her DGC due to her behaviour

Hi Poor I understand what you mean. I generally don't think about my "Ex toxic family", but I think Xmas time makes me feel a bit wistful re the whole family thing. Or lack thereof.

I personally just can't understand how these toxic people can have such a lack of self-awareness that they maintain consistently that 1) They've done nothing wrong. Whatsoever, ever! 2) It didn't happen like I remember it or it didn't happen at all. e.g, I'm a liar living in a make-believe land then?! 3) they normalize EVERYTHING which is blatently abnormal.

Or maybe it's not self-awareness they lack, they know they're lying and they will never admit to being anything less than perfect. So they turn it around and make it all your fault. Bizarre.....

You even end up doubting yourself and wondering if you're having false memories. I just find it hard to believe that the crux of it is, you basically have parents who are incapable of loving their kids. That's what it boils down to in my experience.

As a mother to a 4yr old daughter, I could never ever contemplate not showing her affection, having cuddles and telling her I love her, praising, encouraging etc....all the things which make us properly intact human beings. It just is not in my nature to be anything else, even if she's being a little bugger I deal with that appropriately obv haha!

Sometimes I wonder how much is nature and how much is nurture when I read these threads, esp re particularly vile behaviour. Cos, as humans, everyone should be able to feel and demonstrate all the complexities of human emotions, right? Maybe unless they're autistic or something? Is it just that parents don't always bond with each child effectively?

Any psychologists on here, LOL?? Cos a psychologist would have a Field Day specializing in this area.....My estranged "family" are one huge mystery regarding their very weird behaviours and character traits, which I'll never unravel now. But I do suspect autism explains at least 1 person's behaviour but you can't just go round sticking labels on everyone that behaves out of the ordinary.

In most cases Moomin I think it's nurture that trumps. Generation after generation fuck up their offspring because they don't know how to do it any differently. That's why those of us who are 'choosing' to parent differently should celebrate our success at breaking the toxic inter-generational cycle. A and for us. We've been through too much and bloody deserve them

Thanks pocket, well thanks to my DM none of my family speak to me, even extended family have stopped contact, so I stopped contact with them, so she has turned my whole family against me. The antics that I was anticipating have started. The cards, the texts asking what the DCs want for Christmas, the getting in contact with the EXFWH asking for him to pop around on Christmas Day. EXFWH takes the DCS to see them when he has them totally against my wishes but what do they care I am the mad one that has stopped them having contact with their GC's. My DM walked past where I live unfortunately she moved near me a few years ago to help with the DC's, to continue with the narcissistic supply I provide her, why would you want to move near someone who you have never really got on with, (her words, not mine) I really didn't get it, I do now. She has also tried to extract information from my DD to enquire if we intend to move. On my down days I want to move 100 miles away then I think, why should I, I was here first, bog off the lot of you.

Moomin,

re your comment:-
"Sometimes I wonder how much is nature and how much is nurture when I read these threads, esp re particularly vile behaviour. Cos, as humans, everyone should be able to feel and demonstrate all the complexities of human emotions, right? Maybe unless they're autistic or something? Is it just that parents don't always bond with each child effectively?"

Nurture plays a huge role here; these toxic people's own families were more likely than not to be emotionally unhealthy themselves. Such toxic stuff too can and does go down the generations as well. It stops with people realising that they would never treat their own children in the same ways that they were treated when they were children.

Autism is a lifelong developmental disability that affects how a person communicates with, and relates to, other people. It also affects how they make sense of the world around them.

It is a spectrum condition, which means that, while all people with autism share certain difficulties, their condition will affect them in different ways. Some people with autism are able to live relatively independent lives but others may have accompanying learning disabilities and need a lifetime of specialist support. People with autism may also experience over- or under-sensitivity to sounds, touch, tastes, smells, light or colours.

Many autistic people find reading unwritten body language very hard to interpret; they are certainly capable of feeling all human emotions. I do not think you actually set out to at all deliberately offend but I am finding that particular part of your above post to make very uncomfortable reading indeed. Autism in itself does not equal abusive behaviour.

Thanks for the explanation Attila as I know very little about Autism/Aspergers. I don't even know what causes it? Surely genetics if multiple family members have it? Been on the other thread re Aspergers husbands which is currently running....

I've re-read my post and cannot for the life of me see what is offensive about it. Where on earth did I ever infer autism equals abusive behavior? Cos that is not what I was saying at all. I was merely wondering if people with autism are capable of feeling and demonstrating all of the emotions.

"Sometimes I wonder how much is nature and how much is nurture when I read these threads, esp re particularly vile behaviour. Cos, as humans, everyone should be able to feel and demonstrate all the complexities of human emotions, right? Maybe unless they're autistic or something?"

I do realise you did not set out to offend but that particular part beginning with "Cos..." of your comment made out for being very uncomfortable reading for myself.

Of course people with autism are capable of feeling and demonstrating all of the emotions. Autistic people find it hard to read unwritten body language and can have what is known as the triad of impairments relating to social communication, social interaction and social imagination. I would urge you to read the National Autistic Society's website for more information.

Although the causes of ASDs are not fully understood, genetics likely comes into it along with other factors perhaps environmental and other factors not fully understood.

moomin perhaps you would find it useful to read up on personality disorders, particularly the narcissistic type. It is very distinct from ASD and may explain the behaviours that confuse you

Hi Moomin

www.nhs.uk/conditions/autistic-spectrum-disorder/pages/causes.aspx

My late FIL had no real social skills whatsoever, he was very much a blank canvass as a person and had no interest in anyone apart from his own self.
He met much of the official criteria for NPD.

I would also suggest you read also about narcissistic personality disorder.

Hello all I just wrote a reply and lost it due to lots of interruptions from kids etc. Basically after 20 years I have realized that there are many strange dynamics in DHs family which have at times spilled out into being abusive to me. DH and I are happy together but I think his mom has the emotional distress disorder known as Borderline but I believe has a new name. This has been a very new revelation to me but has suddenly explained so much of what I and others have endured.

His mom and dad are divorced but his dad is also emotionally immature. His dad did not come to our wedding and refused to speak to me, of me or acknowledge me for about six years. DH's sister told me recently that yes he had done that deliberately because if his son would not acknowledge his new wife (his mum and dad divorced just before we met at 26) then he would not accept his son's wife.

Sometimes I wonder at my husband's emotional health.

My DH is definitely the Golden Child to his mum this is out in the open and acknowledged by all. We have always lived far from them. Recently she came to visit and I suddenly saw them with their heads together in deep discussion and realized "something is not right here". I finally was able to see clearly that my MIL treats DH like he is her husband or even her dad. I broached the subject with him and he agreed. It was very hard for him to say anything but he did say that he knew he was more emotionally mature than her and that you expected your parents to be more mature then you.

My problem is that of course she tells everyone I "hate her" because I put boundaries around my family and won't accept inappropriate behavior from her. She also hates/hated her daughters ex- husband and her twin sister's husband because we threaten her emeshment relationships.

Just marking my place. Have NC'd due to a flurry of flying monkeys this last week. :(

I've NC'd for nearly a year, but apparently it's them keeping their boundaries...

Must.Not.Respond.

Very tired tonight but just wanted to pop this quote in here. (Had to take a screenshot on my phone as the Instagram embed code won't play nicely with Mumsnet boards.)

Sonething in it just spoke to me. I think we can all probably remember that dread of speaking our own truths.

They've stolen your NC, GraceKelly???

JeeZ! That takes the biscuit!

Let it wash over you love, they ain't worth it.

They really aren't.

It's all designed to have you spluttering with rage and engaging with them. Dig deep and you will get through this.

Hi everyone. I've been a longtime visitor to this thread. It really is a lifeline to know this shitty family stuff exists. My own family has imploded over the past few years. It seems like wherever I turn someone isn't talking to someone. There's a generational divide here and it's the older generation causing the problems. Myself, my siblings and most of my cousins have been knocked out by it all. Religion is involved. They can't accept that we've all found our own ways of doing things. None of us are bad people, very ordinary, jobs, families, friends etc. But us not going to church is unforgivable.

I've been NC with the two main perpetrators for 2 years. I'll see them this Christmas. The only way I can see to deal with it is to up my level of 'nice.' Although they've caused me a great deal of pain and anxiety (ended up on ADs through them), I still feel sorry for them and their inability to function normally. They've caused so much pain around them and damaged close relationships. I feel stronger now and I'm much happier with NC but see it as impractical in the long run because we have a huge family.

Does anyone have any experience in trying to be super nice and breezing over the verbal hurts when they come? Is there anything I should look out for? I don't think there's much chance my two year 'absence' will have taught them anything really.

And I'm sorry you all have such shit to deal with. The world is unfair.

Sometimes mikey the regret after 15 years is that you allowed selfish and uncaring people to push you around for so long.

Sometimes it's when you go NC - against everything you're 'supposed' to do- that your life changes for the better.

He is consciously choosing this for himself. There may indeed be regret, you can't foretell the future. But for many people the greatest regret is not walking away from the family a great deal earlier and living your life freely.

The family you choose for yourself is sometimes the family that matters. It hurts not to have a family of origin, though; but less than being the collared dog that's pulled by the neck and expected to suck it up.

Thank you hissy.

I'm just reeling - I'm angry but at the same time it's laughable - things abusers say:

"M&D desperately want you to get in touch but are scared of your rages". (I am the most avoidant person you'd ever meet - I'm sure lots of us are).

"I know you have mental health problems but I won't tell anyone if you don't want me to."

"I've put up boundaries because I need to protect myself."

"send me your address so I can send cheques for xmas". (I've moved house and changed numbers... they don't like that!)

It's all "be a good girl, don't make a fuss, tow the line" crap. :(

Goodness me some times I can't believe how many of us have difficult families and how many of your stories resonate with me. I had a farcical chat with dm last night. She was throwing the full narc works at me and thanks to you lot I was able to see it for what it was and ride the storm.

Apparently I am a snob and selfish who needs to " think about" what she said. Bearing in mind this involved over twenty years worth of slights - rewriting history - it is amazing we have survived so long. The best example was that I did not visit my df when he was dying as I was busy. Busy as recovering from a csection and dealing with a newborn in a different country.

Tell me about it! I've had literally every one of those comments myself.

When my DM and her h last came to my house and refused to leave when I asked him not to bustle my son upstairs because I was questioning how DM thought it was ok to move house and not include me in any of the information updates like where it was she was moving to etc... Her h told me to "do as I was told"

I replied that at my age, in my house, I don't "do what I'm told"

Had to call 999 in the end.

No Contact is the only way with these people, but it hurts soooo bad. Nobody does it lightly.

Oh Meery that was very busy indeed . You couldn't make this stuff up, could you?

Hissy it's a couple of years since your incident isn't it? I probably should rtft but cannot remember whether you have any contact now.

haha - I found out last christmas by round robin facebook email (!) that my parents had moved. This was shortly after my dad didn't materialise for the visit he'd promised my children as he was too ill (able to play golf in spain) and then they PTS the cat (young and healthy) they'd promised to give my kids...

I'm a bad daughter. I just won't do what I'm told damnit!

I must admit I did break the NC rule in the spring when my sister got in touch to ask about my marriage breaking up. I spilled my heart and she said it was no surprise as I was such a useless wife and mother. I immediately went NC again.

It does hurt as you say, and it's so hard for anyone not affected by shitty families to understand. As someone upthread said - there's always that "oh they're old/your parents/blood is thicker than water" blah blah blah.

randomcatname

Why have you decided to see these two people this Christmas?. What is the purpose of this, what do you hope to achieve from it?. I would reconsider your decision to meet them at all because it may well simply put you back to square one. You then have to rebuild. I would think that your life without these people in it these past couple of years has been somewhat happier and certainly less drama fuelled.

I know what you mean about religion (I am referring to one of the fringe/cult type "religions" here where charismatic and dangerous charlatans make their own rules from interpreting the Bible in the ways they see fit); it certainly screwed up my late FIL and his family of origin (and going back a couple of generations in that side of the family as well). It caused a lot of rows resulting in he leaving home, never to return.

The worst type of bad man is indeed the religious bad man.

Just because you have a huge family as well is actually no reason at all to break the current no contact with these two main perpetrators (are these two your parents?) either. How many of them have supported your no contact stance?.

You state you feel sorry for these two; that is you simply wanting to be nice and reasonable because you are both a nice and reasonable person. They are not and never will be and have given you no consideration whatsoever. You also ended up on ADs because of them. It is not your fault they are the ways they are; you did not make them this way.

Upping your level of nice may well not work at all; do not forget these people have not fundamentally altered and have not learnt anything from the period of no contact with you. Such people as well do not apologise nor accept any responsibility for their actions.

If you do attend at all (and again I would not go) I would leave at the first sign or indication of nastiness aimed at yourself and or your family; no ifs or buts. You need firm, high and consistent boundaries. Do you have the support of Mr RandomCatname here?. He is also key here.