"But we took you to Stately Homes!" Survivors of Dysfunctional Families

[OnceAMeerNotAlwaysAMeer]

It's November '15, and the Stately Home is still open to visitors.

Forerunning threads:
December 2007
March 2008
August 2008
February 2009
May 2009
January 2010
April 2010
August 2010
March 2011
November 2011
January 2012
November 2012
January 2013
March 2013
August 2013
December 2013
February 2014
April 2014
July 2014
Oct 14 – Dec 14
Dec 14 – March 15
March - Nov 2015

Welcome to the Stately Homes Thread.

This is a long running thread which was originally started up by 'pages' see original thread here (December 2007)

So this thread originates from that thread and has become a safe haven for Adult children of abusive families.

One thing you will never hear on this thread is that your abuse or experience was not that bad. You will never have your feelings minimised the way they were when you were a child, or now that you are an adult. To coin the phrase of a much respected past poster Ally90;

'Nobody can judge how sad your childhood made you, even if you wrote a novel on it, only you know that. I can well imagine any of us saying some of the seemingly trivial things our parents/ siblings did to us to many of our real life acquaintances and them not understanding why we were upset/ angry/ hurt etc. And that is why this thread is here. It's a safe place to vent our true feelings, validate our childhood/ lifetime experiences of being hurt/ angry etc by our parents behaviour and to get support for dealing with family in the here and now.'

Most new posters generally start off their posts by saying; but it wasn't that bad for me or my experience wasn't as awful as x,y or z's.

Some on here have been emotionally abused and/ or physically abused. Some are not sure what category (there doesn't have to be any) they fall into.

NONE of that matters. What matters is how 'YOU' felt growing up, how 'YOU' feel now and a chance to talk about how and why those childhood experiences and/ or current parental contact, has left you feeling damaged, falling apart from the inside out and stumbling around trying to find your sense of self-worth.

You might also find the following links and information useful, if you have come this far and are still not sure whether you belong here or not.

'Toxic Parents' by Susan Forward.

I started with this book and found it really useful.

Here are some excerpts:

"Once you get going, most toxic parents will counterattack. After all, if they had the capacity to listen, to hear, to be reasonable, to respect your feelings, and to promote your independence, they wouldn't be toxic parents. They will probably perceive your words as treacherous personal assaults. They will tend to fall back on the same tactics and defences that they have always used, only more so.

Remember, the important thing is not their reaction but your response. If you can stand fast in the face of your parents' fury, accusations, threats and guilt-peddling, you will experience your finest hour.

Here are some typical parental reactions to confrontation:

"It never happened". Parents who have used denial to avoid their own feelings of inadequacy or anxiety, will undoubtedly use it during confrontation, to promote their version of reality. They'll insist that your allegations never happened, or that you're exaggerating. They won't remember, or they will accuse you of lying.

YOUR RESPONSE: Just because you don't remember, doesn't mean it didn't happen".

"It was your fault." Toxic parents are almost never willing to accept responsibility for their destructive behaviour. Instead, they will blame you. They will say that you were bad, or that you were difficult. They will claim that they did the best that they could but that you always created problems for them. They will say that you drove them crazy. They will offer as proof, the fact that everybody in the family knew what a problem you were. They will offer up a laundry list of your alleged offences against them.

YOUR RESPONSE: "You can keep trying to make this my fault, but I'm not going to accept the responsibility for what you did to me, when I was a child".

"I said I was sorry what more do you want?" Some parents may acknowledge a few of the things that you say but be unwilling to do anything about it.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate your apology, but that is just a beginning. If you're truly sorry, you'll work through this with me, to make a better relationship."

"We did the best we could." Some parents will remind you of how tough they had it while you were growing up and how hard they struggled. They will say such things as "You'll never understand what I was going through," or "I did the best I could". This particular style of response will often stir up a lot of sympathy and compassion for your parents. This is understandable, but it makes it difficult for you to remain focused on what you need to say in your confrontation. The temptation is for you once again to put their needs ahead of your own. It is important that you be able to acknowledge their difficulties, without invalidating your own.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I understand that you had a hard time, and I'm sure that you didn't hurt me on purpose, but I need you to understand that the way you dealt with your problems really did hurt me"

"Look what we did for you." Many parents will attempt to counter your assertions by recalling the wonderful times you had as a child and the loving moments you and they shared. By focusing on the good things, they can avoid looking at the darker side of their behaviour. Parents will typically remind you of gifts they gave you, places they took you, sacrifices they made for you, and thoughtful things they did. They will say things like, "this is the thanks we get" or "nothing was ever enough for you."

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate those things very much, but they didn't make up for ...."

"How can you do this to me?" Some parents act like martyrs. They'll collapse into tears, wring their hands, and express shock and disbelief at your "cruelty". They will act as if your confrontation has victimized them. They will accuse you of hurting them, or disappointing them. They will complain that they don't need this, they have enough problems. They will tell you that they are not strong enough or healthy enough to take this, that the heartache will kill them. Some of their sadness will, of course, be genuine. It is sad for parents to face their own shortcomings, to realise that they have caused their children significant pain. But their sadness can also be manipulative and controlling. It is their way of using guilt to try to make you back down from the confrontation.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I'm sorry you're upset. I'm sorry you're hurt. But I'm not willing to give up on this. I've been hurting for a long time, too."

Helpful Websites

Alice Miller

Personality Disorders definition

More helpful links:

Daughters of narcissistic mothers
Out of the FOG
You carry the cure in your own heart
Help for adult children of child abuse
Pete Walker

Some books:

Homecoming
Will I ever be good enough?
If you had controlling parents
When you and your mother can't be friends
Children of the self-absorbed
Recovery of your inner child

This final quote is from smithfield posting as therealsmithfield:

"I'm sure the other posters will be along shortly to add anything they feel I have left out. I personally don't claim to be sorted but I will say my head has become a helluva lot straighter since I started posting here. You will receive a lot of wisdom but above all else the insights and advice given will 'always' be delivered with warmth and support."

Mercury

You did nothing to them; you were but a child. Its not your fault they are the ways they are; you did not make them this way. Unfortunately (and that is an understatement to say the very least) you were born into an emotionally unhealthy and dysfunctional family and people from those can end up playing well defined roles. Your assigned role to them is still the scapegoat, your brother is still the golden child. Your dad for his own reasons decided to stay with his alcoholic wife and did the usual roles associated with such a person.

Put higher boundaries in place re your dad; you do not have to keep on buying things for him for instance. He was a weak bystander of a man when you were a child and he has not fundamentally altered since then.

Mum2 what a despicable, vile thing for your mum to say about your DD - and how it reveals her character: the kind of person who thinks "whore" is a good description for a 9 year old girl.

What would happen if you had hung up at any point during the conversation while saying "I've got to out now, bye" or possibly I'm not listening to any more shit from your foul mouth you utter cunt

Moomin I tend to just stick to "We're just having a quiet one at home, me and DS. What are your plans?"

Hi all, this is my first post on this thread but I've lurked on occasion. I might come back later and add something but at the moment it's all muddled and I'm not sure that it would make sense! I'm slowly starting to realise how utterly fucked my family is and it's floored me, probably made worse by the fact that at this time of year so many people are looking forward to spending time with their families and the realisation has crept in that I don't have that

One thing that shines through in all of your posts is the absolute determination to break the cycle and be the loving parents our dcs need and that is true strength and proof that we are not just products of our upbringing. to all of you

genericusrname1 to you too.

I sat here for quite a while earlier and wrote, what was attempting to be, a summary. Mumsnet went down so I lost it - quite pleased about that now though! You've put it much better than I could've - especially the last bit about not letting this continue on to the next generation.

We've got dysfunction on both sides (DH and mine) - mine is more obvious are pretty much entirely in the past now. It's DH's family that we struggle with now. DH warned me but I didn't really get it (and neither did he fully back them - blamed his sister but he sees the bigger picture now). A decade on and I definitely do now (and more deeply thanks to this thread).

We've got, increasingly, strong boundaries and much more realistic expectations but I cannot seem help ruminating over it. I would say that it is my worst habit - seems to be on my mind most of the time. So desperate to kick it and put this mental energy into living the life that I want to lead! Seriously thinking about seeing a counsellor/life coach to get past this but not sure if that is fuelling it further...

A bloody good shake needed here!

Had not spoken or had contact with my father for over 6 months when he contacted me a couple of weeks ago to say that he could not understand why we had words back in June. He wanted us to meet so that we could sort it out and after considering carefully and because his message seemed so genuine I responded.
I said that there were a number of issues that had hurt me over the years and that as a family we were rubbish at communicating and that perhaps I should have told him before, but that I wanted to have a conversation and clear the air. He then said

'Anyway I would love to meet up with you A.s.a.p as I have missed you all, you are my family after all. Do you think it would be better if you let me have a list of your problems this would allow me to consider them, and hopefully come back with some meaningful way forward, we both have to get it right this time if we are to have any hope of a future as a family. '

I didn't want to send a list and when I delayed in sending it he said

'I suggested it would be a good idea for you to put a list of your problems together so I could try and give you my reply. I have not yet received them. However if you agree that I love you and you love me would it not render any problems with each other irrelevant and the course to take would be just get on with it.'

Well I definitely did not want things brushing under the carpet as they seemed to have been all my life, so against my better judgement I sent a list of some examples, thinking we could discuss them when we met up. However what he actually did was go through the list and try to justify why he wasn't at fault, had done nothing wrong, or it can't have been that important anyway, and finished by saying he had an issue he wanted to discuss with myself and DH.

I now realise that at this point I should have just closed that door again, but seen as he had seemed to make an effort I responded with

'DD I want the same! The last 6 months have allowed me time to reflect and to try and understand where my feelings, emotions and behaviour comes from.I believe my anger is a defence mechanism and so too is keeping people at arms length , but I am committed to changing that, hence why i wanted to talk to you about the instances I mentioned and how I was left hurt by them.

I can't promise to never get angry again but I can promise to try my best to be honest and truthful in a measured way when something triggers me. For what its worth my triggers appear to be around feeling that i am not heard or that i have not been considered and therefore feel that I am unimportant .I was angry outside minisucha's school because we had mentioned coming up to see you which you then cancelled and then had everyone apart from my family over to your house and this was something that minisucha commented on.

Finally i am well aware of your age and both Dsis and I have said how we would like to see more of you on more than one occasion. When we don't get to see you we assume that we are not that important to you and it hurts. Hence why i don't ring you, it feels like your calls and when we meet up, is out of duty rather than a desire to see us.I want to move forward too on this.'

I thought my mail was open, honest and conciliatory and yet what came back was that the issues I mentioned were 'in my head' and only I could sort them out. Also

'May be anger management course would help you. Haven't you ever thought that the reason you feel you are not listened to it because you always go off on one. Everybody is bored with it and doesn't listen.'

and then

'But finally let me make the point there is nothing I can do about your mindset only you can do that but remember I am a,ways there for you.

Please don't send anymore emails regarding this lets just get on with it'

I am devastated, I thought that maybe he would listen this time but feel that I have just been silenced again. Some back ground info is that when my parents divorced when I was 21, I was admitted on to a psychiatric ward with a somatic illness as I believed that it was all my fault having a mother with NPD I had internalised everything she told me about myself. I had always thought my father blameless but after how he has handled this I am not so sure.

Sorry my email goes on a bit but I needed to get things off my chest and someone to tell me that I am not being unreasonable in cutting contact.

What a load of shitty mind games suchafuss! So he contacts you and offers you the chance to address the issues between you but then minimises, refuses to take responsibility and tells you that it's all in your head and asks you not to mention it again? Was it this kind of behaviour that led to you going nc in the first place? No wonder you're hurt, it's like he dangled the carrot in front of you and then as soon as he knew you wanted it he whipped it away again

And thanks for the 5hearts!

suchafuss, that is such a classic abusive exchange. Look at all the techniques - asking "why are you not in contact" and then when told, dismissing all the reasons. Trying to sweep everything under the carpet in the name of reconciliation. And then putting all the responsibility on you with the anger management classes suggestion.

You opened up regarding your anger (which is totally justifiable in the example you gave, but in abusive families of course only the abuser(s) are allowed to get angry) hoping that would lead to him sharing in return and you maybe coming closer to each others' point of view. That's what happens in a healthy relationship. Instead he just used it as a way of making you out to be the sick one in need of fixing - that's because (IMO) he's one of those who has no interest in changing, only in winning. I definitely agree that you're justified in cutting contact.

suchafuss

Unfortunately I am not all that surprised by how that exchange panned out; these people are past masters of, "come closer so I can hurt you again". And he did that so you were and have been hurt sadly.

It is NOT your fault your parents are like this; you did not make them this way.

I also note without surprise that your mother is narcissistic; such weak men like your dad really act as her hatchet man and often too need someone to idolise (women like your mother cannot do relationships at all and I note they are divorced, such men are rarely tolerated and are often kicked out) or are actually narcissistic too. He failed to protect you as a child from the excesses of your mother and still fails you now. Dysfunctional people never apologise nor accept any responsibility for their actions.

Cut all contact and do not get sucked back in ever again. Block all his ways of communicating with you.

suchafuss that was a nasty thing for him to do, so manipulative.

You are definitely not unreasonable in cutting contact again. I guess it can be looked at as further evidence that you were right to cut contact the first time.

It is a hard thing to face up to - that our own family are doing this to us and the only way is to keep our distance and find happiness and support elsewhere. .

I went ahead and booked my first appointment with a counsellor yesterday after I posted. I feel like a weight has been lifted already, which tells me it was the right decision - I so hope so!

suchafuss

Awful, just awful. I could feel the knot of anger welling up in my chest just reading his responses to your points. He built you up just so he could shoot you down again. Vile.
Do not set yourself up for it again, you will never get the response you want from him so don't give him the satisfaction.
Toxic parents are absolutely expert at reeling you in again for the next round of their game. Please be kind to yourself and don't let yourself be reeled in again.

suchafuss

So sorry you had to put up with this twatwaffle yanking your chain.

He learned his lessons well from your mother, didn't he?

When one parent has been outright abusive (in your case, your mum) we tend to cling on to the other parent out of sheer desperation. The idea of being left without any parent at all is so frightening to a child that we reserve all our hatred for the more abusive parent, and all our love and understanding for the one who we perceive as a "fellow victim" or "s/he tried her best" - and we cover over any thoughts or feelings about "Why didn't s/he protect me?" or nasty things that they have done/said to us.

This creates a huge stress in our minds and hearts because the fear of not having a parent is still huge, even when we are grown up and have children of our own.

I went through this in the opposite dimension to you - dad was physically and sexually abusive, but mum is horribly toxic as well, did fuck all to protect me or my sis as a child, and has been hateful to my son. Haven't had contact with dad for over 25 years - but it took me until this year to understand that my mum was also doing me damage and having a massive negative impact on my life and my MH.

We are now NC and I am so much happier and calmer.

You make so much sense with the above post pocket. I completely understand the desperation of having one parent, any parent! Suchafuss, I also think the best thing you can do for your sanity and self respect is to continue being NC. Don't give him the opportunity to hurt you any further.

My dm is not speaking to me at the moment but telling anyone who will listen that I am not speaking to her after I confronted her over the way she treats me. I feel so drained and confused by it all and scared to say too much on here in case everyone agrees with her. Anyone who knows the full story of how it really is between us is horrified by the way she acts towards me but she is such a nice person to everyone else and so many people know her version and think I am a nasty horrible daughter and waste of space etc it makes me doubt myself. Sometimes I think that if she can only be like this with me it must be because there's something wrong with me, she has lots of friends and has great relationships with everyone else. Sorry for the rambly post just finding it hard today.

generic we're not going to agree with her. We all have (at least) one of those people in our lives.

Do you have kids? I have two kids and I know that whatever they were like, they'd deserve my loving attention. Even supposing you were "unlovable" (and I bet you're a lovely person) your parents (IMO) have a duty of care. That's your anchor point. Nice people don't treat their children like shit.

Are you able to withdraw from your mother and her friends at all? If so I think it would do your state of mind a lot of good. Surround yourself with the people who know the truth and who have your best interests at heart. And we're always here or hereabouts .

I am sorry to interrupt this thread I'm just really struggling with my dh's decision to stop contact with his family. People seem so knowledgable on this thread and I hoped to get some advice.

My husband has not told his family the full reasons why he has cut contact and isn't planning on doing so saying it will only initiate contact with them and they won't listen anyway. Plus they have not asked and are almost ignoring all this, sending lovely Christmassy cards etc. Should he tell them?

The other thing I'm struggling with is I don't think they have done anything truly terrible to warrant him cutting contact. But I know they have caused him pain and he is not a bad person who is doing this for no reason. Cutting contact is unheard of in my family and I have struggled with his decision despite knowing what he has had to put up with. His father is seriously ill and I feel bad that they are coping with this as well as his dads ill health.

Any advice is very much appreciated

Hi Mikey I'm new here too so don't take too much notice of what I say as I'm sure some of the others will have much more insight than me! Can you tell us a bit more about your inlaws? Why does your dh want to cut contact? Ime after a long history of being treated badly the thing that causes a person to finally snap can be such a minor thing that others think it is a massive overreaction but it's like the straw that broke the camel's back. My dm is so overly nice to others that they can't understand how she is with me so I know that if I do decide to cut contact with her lots of people will struggle to understand. Your dh's parents sound like they are not respectful of his wishes - still sending cards when he's told them he doesn't want contact so it seems unlikely that they would take on board what he has to say anyway so I can understand him not wanting to explain.

Thank you toomuch, I do have dcs and they adore her but they are too little to know any better. We don't have much contact as it is and with her ignoring me atm it would be so easy to go nc but I still feel torn over it - conditioning probably!

Hi Mikey

My husband has not told his family the full reasons why he has cut contact and isn't planning on doing so saying it will only initiate contact with them and they won't listen anyway.

Your DH is spot on. Poisonous people love an opportunity to further abuse their victim. If you read the opening post of this thread, there are a number of typical responses that abusers give when confronted. Confrontation can sometimes be simply another opportunity for the abuser to cause pain to the victim.

Your DH will not have done this lightly. He is your family, not them. You owe him your loyalty and understanding, even if he can't express to you yet just how painful and fearful his childhood was.

This book might be of help to you: Toxic In-laws

It is very difficult for people from normal, loving families to understand the dysfunctional dynamics that make up a toxic one, because the very idea that a parent would deliberately cause harm and hurt to their child - and continue doing so into adulthood - is shocking and unnatural to you. However, saying things like "Was it really so bad? Can't you just let them be, they are old after all and they're your parents" is very painful because it undermines the victim's experience and taps straight back into the abuser's words that it's all the victim's fault and if they hadn't been such a little shit as a child then they wouldn't have been beaten, shouted at, thrown outside, told they were evil, etc. And that the victim should just shut up, swallow their fear, pain and anger, and continue taking shit for the rest of their life.

Mikey

Be thankful that you indeed come from an emotionally healthy family. Your DH has not been so fortunate and his parents as you state have caused him great pain.

Do read "Toxic Inlaws" by Susan Forward so you can further understand the power and control dynamics that are rife in such dysfunctional families.

Support him fully in his decision and do not question it even if you do not fully comprehend why he is doing this. It has come after many years of ill treatment from them along with a lot of reflection on his part; this decision was never made at all lightly. He has every right to do this. The question, "what about me" should not always be seen as selfish and self centered.

If either of his parents are sick, that doesn’t change the fact that he has rights and it doesn’t change the facts about the way that he was treated by them in the past. They are not sorry. They don’t acknowledge the abuse. They never wanted to change or tried to change.

Many dysfunctional people also refuse to apologise or even accept responsibility for their actions. They are still sending Christmas cards to him; I sincerely hope that these have now been shredded.

It is not your DH's fault that they are like this; their own families of origin did that lot of damage to them. Also such people like his parents make for being poor role models as grandparents as well.

Hi everyone, Merry Christmas to you all. I am a long time lurker on this page for about 12 months now. I used to post avidly on here when I was going through my separation with my exH, finally divorced. It took over a year because of his controlling narc ways and cost me a lot of money in the process. I ended up having to go to see a councillor which opened my eyes to why I felt so frustrated, anxious, angry upset. My mother is also toxic and a Narc, therefore it was learned behaviour why I met and married a man with the very same traits and left me for another woman, leaving me nearly homeless with 2 x DC's.

I finally grew a pair and after an almighty row which DM instigated of course by her, which is her usual behaviour when she doesn't want to do something so it looks like I am the horrible bad child, I decided enough was enough after other undermining stunts with my DC's that she had pulled I went NC. It was absolutely horrendous and I endured months of the flying monkeys, the tears, tantrums, letters, trying to get to me via my friends and the golden child, my sister, even turning up at my old workplace to try and see me, contacting my eldest DC via text messages. Its been 12 months. Although its not completely gone away, I feel so much more in control of my life, which is God damn hard but its my god damn hard life and no one else is calling the shots. This is the time of year I dread as this is when the antics start. This post has kept me going when I am feeling down and thinking is it my fault am I the bad person for doing this, I read the posts and it gives me strength to carry on, so a big thank you to you all.

So any advice how to get through the next few days and the rest of my life with this path I have chosen. xx

Generic I meant to reply to you earlier, but I had to leave for work (bloody inconvenient! )

Nobody here will tell you that you are over-reacting or that your "D"M is in the right. We all understand how manipulative these people are, and how the drip drip drip can finally resolve into the straw that broke the camel's back - but leaves the abuser telling people "All I did was cancel a shopping trip with her and she went bananas and said she wasn't speaking to me, I tried to apologise [by saying she was mental and needed help and that nothing she brought up actually happened and if it did, it wasn't my fault], oh woe is me, a faithless child is sharper than a serpent's tooth" etc.

This struck me from your post:
so many people know her version and think I am a nasty horrible daughter and waste of space etc
Have people outside of your family actually said to your that you're a horrible daughter and a waste of space? Because anyone who would say this is a meddling cunt, and you don't need to worry yourself about their opinion.

I think you would also find that a lot of people have the measure of your mother, in fact. Narcs are incapable of keeping up the facade all the time and there will be people through the years who she has treated appallingly and then cut off.

What kind of contact are you currently having? Is she sending family members to pressure you (flying monkeys)?

Hi angel Glad to hear your went NC and have been successful keeping to it despite extreme bullying from family.

What kind of contact attempts are you expecting to happen? Phone calls - if so to mobile or landline? Cards by post? Presents left on doorstep for DC? Flying monkeys via Facebook?

Thank you for your responses. I'm trying to digest everything. I'll get that book on my kindle. What I'm struggling with is the idea he will never see them again, attend their funerals etc. It seems so absolute. He does say he feels free and lighter since doing this. And I know he is a lovely kind person so wouldn't do this unless he felt strongly. I just don't want him to make a mistake he later regrets.
His childhood was difficult because his parents were selfish and prioritised their needs before that of their children. There was a lack of love, attention and praise.
There is a lot of manipulation to get him to behave how they want.
I bet they would say they did their best.
They have conveniently forgotten a lot of stuff.
What grates though is they present themselves as amazing loving people. And always say your immediate blood family are what's important.
But still don't they deserve to know why he has cut contact?
They have sent money for the children by cheque and we don't know what to do.

I know I sound unsupportive, I'm really trying to be there for him and just don't want him to have regrets. Plus some members of his extended family are putting pressure on me to change his mind.

Plus some members of his extended family are putting pressure on me to change his mind.

This is what we call "flying monkeys" - they've discovered your DH is no longer willing to be bullied and abused, so they've started on you. Nice!

But still don't they deserve to know why he has cut contact?
No. Because they won't be interested in listening to how they have hurt him. They will make it out to be all his fault, tell him things didn't happen, or if they did happen he brought it on himself. They will shower him with guilt, probably start faking illnesses, and confuse his head utterly.

If you had a friend who was in a relationship with an abusive man who cheated on her, lied to her, verbally and emotionally abused her - would you say he deserved to know why she was leaving him? Would you encourage her to go to relationship counselling, so he could carefully counter each of her reasons with bullshit about why it was her fault that he did that, and gaslight the shit out of her, and manipulate her into thinking that it was all her fault, and she was a terrible person who should count herself lucky to have such a forgiving husband?

Or would you just tell her to pack her bags and run for the hills?