"But we took you to Stately Homes!" Survivors of Dysfunctional Families

[OnceAMeerNotAlwaysAMeer]

It's November '15, and the Stately Home is still open to visitors.

Forerunning threads:
December 2007
March 2008
August 2008
February 2009
May 2009
January 2010
April 2010
August 2010
March 2011
November 2011
January 2012
November 2012
January 2013
March 2013
August 2013
December 2013
February 2014
April 2014
July 2014
Oct 14 – Dec 14
Dec 14 – March 15
March - Nov 2015

Welcome to the Stately Homes Thread.

This is a long running thread which was originally started up by 'pages' see original thread here (December 2007)

So this thread originates from that thread and has become a safe haven for Adult children of abusive families.

One thing you will never hear on this thread is that your abuse or experience was not that bad. You will never have your feelings minimised the way they were when you were a child, or now that you are an adult. To coin the phrase of a much respected past poster Ally90;

'Nobody can judge how sad your childhood made you, even if you wrote a novel on it, only you know that. I can well imagine any of us saying some of the seemingly trivial things our parents/ siblings did to us to many of our real life acquaintances and them not understanding why we were upset/ angry/ hurt etc. And that is why this thread is here. It's a safe place to vent our true feelings, validate our childhood/ lifetime experiences of being hurt/ angry etc by our parents behaviour and to get support for dealing with family in the here and now.'

Most new posters generally start off their posts by saying; but it wasn't that bad for me or my experience wasn't as awful as x,y or z's.

Some on here have been emotionally abused and/ or physically abused. Some are not sure what category (there doesn't have to be any) they fall into.

NONE of that matters. What matters is how 'YOU' felt growing up, how 'YOU' feel now and a chance to talk about how and why those childhood experiences and/ or current parental contact, has left you feeling damaged, falling apart from the inside out and stumbling around trying to find your sense of self-worth.

You might also find the following links and information useful, if you have come this far and are still not sure whether you belong here or not.

'Toxic Parents' by Susan Forward.

I started with this book and found it really useful.

Here are some excerpts:

"Once you get going, most toxic parents will counterattack. After all, if they had the capacity to listen, to hear, to be reasonable, to respect your feelings, and to promote your independence, they wouldn't be toxic parents. They will probably perceive your words as treacherous personal assaults. They will tend to fall back on the same tactics and defences that they have always used, only more so.

Remember, the important thing is not their reaction but your response. If you can stand fast in the face of your parents' fury, accusations, threats and guilt-peddling, you will experience your finest hour.

Here are some typical parental reactions to confrontation:

"It never happened". Parents who have used denial to avoid their own feelings of inadequacy or anxiety, will undoubtedly use it during confrontation, to promote their version of reality. They'll insist that your allegations never happened, or that you're exaggerating. They won't remember, or they will accuse you of lying.

YOUR RESPONSE: Just because you don't remember, doesn't mean it didn't happen".

"It was your fault." Toxic parents are almost never willing to accept responsibility for their destructive behaviour. Instead, they will blame you. They will say that you were bad, or that you were difficult. They will claim that they did the best that they could but that you always created problems for them. They will say that you drove them crazy. They will offer as proof, the fact that everybody in the family knew what a problem you were. They will offer up a laundry list of your alleged offences against them.

YOUR RESPONSE: "You can keep trying to make this my fault, but I'm not going to accept the responsibility for what you did to me, when I was a child".

"I said I was sorry what more do you want?" Some parents may acknowledge a few of the things that you say but be unwilling to do anything about it.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate your apology, but that is just a beginning. If you're truly sorry, you'll work through this with me, to make a better relationship."

"We did the best we could." Some parents will remind you of how tough they had it while you were growing up and how hard they struggled. They will say such things as "You'll never understand what I was going through," or "I did the best I could". This particular style of response will often stir up a lot of sympathy and compassion for your parents. This is understandable, but it makes it difficult for you to remain focused on what you need to say in your confrontation. The temptation is for you once again to put their needs ahead of your own. It is important that you be able to acknowledge their difficulties, without invalidating your own.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I understand that you had a hard time, and I'm sure that you didn't hurt me on purpose, but I need you to understand that the way you dealt with your problems really did hurt me"

"Look what we did for you." Many parents will attempt to counter your assertions by recalling the wonderful times you had as a child and the loving moments you and they shared. By focusing on the good things, they can avoid looking at the darker side of their behaviour. Parents will typically remind you of gifts they gave you, places they took you, sacrifices they made for you, and thoughtful things they did. They will say things like, "this is the thanks we get" or "nothing was ever enough for you."

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate those things very much, but they didn't make up for ...."

"How can you do this to me?" Some parents act like martyrs. They'll collapse into tears, wring their hands, and express shock and disbelief at your "cruelty". They will act as if your confrontation has victimized them. They will accuse you of hurting them, or disappointing them. They will complain that they don't need this, they have enough problems. They will tell you that they are not strong enough or healthy enough to take this, that the heartache will kill them. Some of their sadness will, of course, be genuine. It is sad for parents to face their own shortcomings, to realise that they have caused their children significant pain. But their sadness can also be manipulative and controlling. It is their way of using guilt to try to make you back down from the confrontation.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I'm sorry you're upset. I'm sorry you're hurt. But I'm not willing to give up on this. I've been hurting for a long time, too."

Helpful Websites

Alice Miller

Personality Disorders definition

More helpful links:

Daughters of narcissistic mothers
Out of the FOG
You carry the cure in your own heart
Help for adult children of child abuse
Pete Walker

Some books:

Homecoming
Will I ever be good enough?
If you had controlling parents
When you and your mother can't be friends
Children of the self-absorbed
Recovery of your inner child

This final quote is from smithfield posting as therealsmithfield:

"I'm sure the other posters will be along shortly to add anything they feel I have left out. I personally don't claim to be sorted but I will say my head has become a helluva lot straighter since I started posting here. You will receive a lot of wisdom but above all else the insights and advice given will 'always' be delivered with warmth and support."

I've just managed to lose a long post but the gist of it was that I'm feeling resentful towards DH for not sticking up for me/us and not standing up to his parents. Very irrational of me I know and I at times regret having married him..........then I wouldn't have spent the last 10 years of my life putting up with the ILs and continuing to do so now even though we are NC.

I want it all to stop so we can move forward with our lives but I don't feel able to whilst they are still up to their tricks.

I feel very guilty for feeling this way towards DH as I love him very much, he is a fantastic husband and father.

I think it's hard not to let that resentment build up.

I forget, were you with DH when you were trying to break free from your family of origin? If so - perhaps watching you struggle to free yourself from toxic family has actually given him strength to do the same - which he has done, so far to the best of his ability.

Remember that when the chips were down, they told him to divorce you or be cut off - he chose you. The fact they then went batshit insane isn't his fault.

It must be so tiring and worrying being so close to them. Are you in rented at the moment? Any possibility next year to move somewhere a bit further afield?

mampam I think it is entirely understandable you feel resentful. It's be odd if you didn't.

Maybe the best thing to do is to talk to him about this? (calmly) I can see why he was struggling (FOG) but really do think you have a lot of reason to be very fed up. Would speaking to him about it help defuse it? (just a suggestion)

How do you all manage the NC rule with a parent when your sibling isn't NC? I've been treated shockingly by my father, always I was the scapegoat and brother the golden child. Father has a new GF and has disowned me because I didn't want anything to do with her (she tried causing trouble as soon as she could). Brother is annoyed at father at his treatment of me but is still in contact, hasn't really cut the apron strings and will visit my father regularly. When he visits me though he's full of how awful the situation is and how much he's been 'having it out with my father for treating me badly'.
I've tried explaining to him that my father just doesn't give a shit and won't take anything he says seriously as my brother won't make a stand and go NC too.
I'm finding out that brother is inviting father and GF to tea and playing happy families yet to my face he's 'on my side'.
It doesn't feel right to demand that my brother doesn't bother with my father too but at the same time it seems incredibly two faced of him. I don't want to fall out with my brother but am feeling very resentful and angry about it all.

Mercury I have lots to say about this, because of my own experience. I have been LC/nowNC with my M for many, many years, about 15/16 I think.

I have two DBs and they have been immersed in the FOG all that time. At first, they tried to get me to make up and be conciliatory for the sake of a peaceful, happy family etc. and just couldn't really understand why I'd gone to such extremes. I have explained why in various ways, and at various times.

However, I am lucky in that my DBs and I all love each other very much and have always sympathised with each other whenever any of us is her current target. Eventually, and while still having a very hard time with her themselves, they started to understand what I'd done and why, although neither of them has chosen to take the same path. I am grateful they understand now, they defend me where necessary, they see that this is my personal choice and it's not up to them to try to make me change my mind. Their choice has been to stay in a relationship with a woman who causes so much trouble for them and their families, they all suffer. They think they 'manage' her. But it doesn't actually work out that well for them a lot of the time. I sympathise, but I see that they have chosen their path, and I respect that as they respect my right to choose what I do.

None of us thinks it would be ok to tell either of the others what to do. I wouldn't dream of asking them to not have a relationship with our mother. That is not for me to do. I did not take the decision lightly, went through a lot of pain over it and have, at times, found it a hard decision to live with. I still meander off into the FOG every so often. That decision is a very personal choice. One which you cannot demand of another person. It is not an easy thing to do, and I wouldn't expect anyone else to feel able to do it, just because I wanted them to. I did it because it was the right thing for me.

I am so grateful that, although we share a toxic parent who has affected us all in so many ways, we have not fallen out over this as siblings. They still see my M a lot, invite her to stuff, they couldn't have a relationship with her otherwise. They are still playing the game. And they sometimes joke that they are jealous of me for being well out of it! I don't live near any of them, though, so I suppose that does make things easier.

Hope that helps.

Thanks, I really don't want to have to go NC with my brother too but it hurts when I hear that my father treats him differently. I do suspect I'm being played though (brother running with the hares and the hounds as they say...)

My Dbro is in contact with our mother but only low contact, deliberately on his part. I've been NC for over a year with my mother. Mostly it's fine as he doesn't like her either but finds it easier to let LC pootle along than have the eonromous explosion that would happen if he went any lower contact. It's mostly fine as he dislikes her as much as me. When I was in the thick of going NC with her I asked him not to talk to me about her at all for a few weeks as I just found any mention of her too much, so that's an option: ask him not to mention them to you at all, as if the toxic person didn't exist.

When my sister was managing my mum through LC, but I was still in full contact (and deep in the FOG), my sis asked me sometimes not to talk about my mum, as it would make her feel quite anxious and stressed. However she was adamant she never wanted to confront my mum with how rubbish she'd been "as it would destroy her".

I didn't really get it at the time - I think I was so used to suppressing my emotions around my mum that I simply didn't feel anything after contact with her. Oh - except for binge drinking, binge eating and sometimes getting into shouty arguments with strangers. But that's normal after a phone call with your mum, right?!

Then when I had my sort of road to Damascus moment, and went NC in one go, my mum cut my sister off in retaliation. So now we are both NC with her.

I am not sure how we would have handled it if my sis had chosen to remain LC. It would be immensely difficult, I think, for both of us.

I know we were posting about crappy presents received from toxic parents before, but has anyone also experienced the flipside: ungrateful toxic recipients?

My mum had this habit when opening a present of putting on her glasses, thrusting her head forward like a tortoise out of its shell, and sort of glaring at the offending article gift, looking it up and down and side to side, turning it around, but while producing a strained rictus of a smile, before blinking several times and saying " Lovely. I'm sure that will come in very useful. ...What made you choose that?"

Then 2 days later you'd find it in a bag marked "For the charity shop". :(

In all my years of being old enough to buy her a present with my own money - about 30 years - I can only remember ONE xmas or birthday where she received a gift from me with genuine pleasure. It was when I blew a whole week's wages from my first ever job to get her a gold necklace from Next. And I swear to god the snobby bitch would have turned her nose up if it had been in an Argos box

Yeah, pocket. So many times trying to please him and getting v little back. Only managed to please him once. The disappointment each time was a little knife cut.

My mother used to be like this. Whatever you bought he would never be right. Clothing - too small, too big, not my style. Books - already read that. If you bought anything like an ornament or flowers then it wasn't a gift to HER it was for the house therefore she'd get upset over that.
She had no hobbies so I could never buy something related to that. I tried it all over the years. I used to cringe sitting there watching her open her presents (she was like a child who alway expected masses of stuff) the look on her face was always one of disappointment. My heart used to sink as I only ever wanted her approval.
She mentioned she'd like a cake once so I made the most beautiful sponge cake for her. She rang me to 'thank' me but I was also told next time I should put more buttercream in it....

I used to ask my DH not to buy his late father anything for any occasion, let alone Christmas, because it was never really wanted or appreciated. He used to mutter a brief thanks then put it away never to be seen again. After his dad died they found a load of stuff and clothes that he had never worn, still in bags.

I once asked DH if he had ever been hugged by him as a child; his silence spoke volumes. My heart broke for him. I think this is indeed about seeking approval, he sought his dad's approval his whole life and now he continues to try and seek approval from his mother. He never gave him approval and hers is still to some extent conditional (although he is the apple of her eye). For Christmas he has bought her a bag and matching purse; it won't be readily used but instead put away and used like a museum piece.

Hi all, had a bit of a wobble over the last couple of days. Saw via Facebook that my aunt and uncle have been to visit my hometown, which means they'll have seen my mum. I don't know why it makes me nervous exactly - not sure what she will have said if anything (she was always very careful about providing outsiders with evidence of her abuse airing dirty laundry in public) but it just made me think about what's going to happen with the family and all. I've known narcissists in the past who've tried to get their side in first or just fucking out and out lie (a narcissist friend of mine, when I resigned from the presidency of the uni society we were in together, went around telling mutual friends that I had emigrated!) and while I don't want to get into any of this, I do feel regret that probably some of the family will cut contact with me when they know I've gone NC with my mother, and some of those people were a good laugh. Hey ho.

Hey toomuch I know what you mean. I got a card from a distant ish Aunt and Uncle yesterday which referred to some changes in my life that they recently "were told about" - which may mean they have seem my mum recently and therefore know we are NC. I don't know if she would have told them though as they aren't close? It's a puzzle and I hate not knowing.

pocket have you made any other changes recently that could explain the comment?

I wish people would be more direct. I mean, other people, not our parents, that's too much to hope for.

Yes buying presents for others fills me with so much emotional stress. The present we used to get said much more about my mother than us.
I am feeling really down after a phone call from DM. Had to bear 1h30 of conversation. And I said I had loads to do. Completely disregarded.
She told me that exH sent her a photo of the Dcs. DD had her hair down and it nearly reaches her bum. DM said she was furious as DD looks like a whore! I said: 'don't use this word to talk about my children' The sheer idea that someone could view a 9 y.o. as a whore is maad!
ExH told DM that DD was rubbish at school at a subject where she should be excellent (due to having me as a mum). I asked why do you listen to him? She said she hasn't but then ask me to justify myself about it.
She also told me than me and my sis have a tone which is a bit too shouty with the DCs. And at least it is good because with me she can say it, unlike with sis.
So petty and yet I get really annoyed. Why?

Hi all, I've wandered back here, I think, due to the time of year. It always makes me feel a tad maudlin and whimsical. Especially when you get people that don't know the situation ( I finally went NC with the last of the whole sorry bunch of them earlier this yr ) inquiring " Are you going back home for Xmas? " or words to that effect. Then I have a nano-second to think about how I respond....do I say " I don't have any family "? then that makes them feel awkward then I feel like I need to elaborate which I really can't be arsed to do. Too convoluted and complex. Or do I just give some bullshit answer and comply with their expectations?, basically lie! Cos I despise lying and don't wanna feel obliged to do so just cos it's easier.

Usually I just try and give an evasive answer and then ask them about themselves. Then I just have my usual case of envying all these "normal" people with their "normal" family lives.

I can't even enjoy my lovely inlaws as they live in a different continent

Just feeling a bit self-pitying and sad for my 4yr old daughter who basically has no extended family. I see other Grandparents out and about with their Grandkids, enjoying eachothers' company and enriching one anothers' lives.....

Then I bob on here and read these posts and the bubble is burst! LOL... At least here we can speak and know others will understand, unlike those "normal" folk. I'm glad this thread and you guys are here

mum2 BTW that was a despicable remark to make, calling your daughter a whore! That is NOT the way any well-balanced person, let alone a Grandparent, should talk about a 9yr old! Jesus....Most people would be complementary of such a lovely head of hair on a young girl anyways. Sorry but she sounds like a right nutter.

Yes MoominPie22 I feel stuck here too with no family. But at least I have the DCs. Every time I am pondering: Is it better to spend it on our own or get to experience DM's despicable comments and dad's temper? ( bro and sis are lovely). But this year I opted for a shitless Christmas.
I will try to make it as Christmassy as possible for the DCs.
I am not telling them how their grandma is treating me. And I wonder if I should. But exH would have a ball and probably bring wood to DM's fire.

mum2 agree 100% with moomin, that's a horrible thing to say about a 9yo child. And total sympathy on the 90 min phone call! My god I don't miss them. With the bloody kids going nuts around me too. Sometimes I used to just tell her it was running out of charge and then hit the off button mid conversation, there was no way to bring it to a close...

I guess guilt is keeping me on the line toomuchtooold. Good tip. I should have w written down list of excuse as I loose my marble when she is on!

I'm wavering over sending my father an xmas card. All this estrangement between us is because I'm not interested In any sort of relationship with his girlfriend. She caused trouble between my father and I and being the spineless Man he is he sided with her, probably as he was afraid to lose her (she is argumentative and volatile - his own words). When I told him I didn't want anything to do with her he told me that if I didn't accept her as part of the family then I was dead to him.
He had been seeing her 4 months at this point, my mother had been dead 6 months.
My mother was an abusive, volatile alcoholic and since I was a child he sat back and enabled her bad behaviour to me. All my life I've put up with this. So why has my father cutting me out hurt me so badly? You'd think I'd be used to abandonment by now.
My golden child brother tells me I should grow up and accept her in order to make up with my father but the longer time is going on and he doesn't contact me (I've been in hospital, had birthdays, he has GCs that he's not contacted) the more think no, I'm not backing down, I've backed down and been the browbeaten one all my life. So why do I feel the need to send him a birthday card as I did last week and now an xmas card.

Hi Mercury. You cannot control who is in your father's life. What you can control is your relationship with your father. It is up to you to decide whether you still want a relationship with him. He comes as a package it seems so it is the price to pay for a relationship with him. However you don't have to take any crap from her. You can always suggest meeting on his own. Have you?
If he matters to you just send him a Christmas card.

You can change how you react to your dad.

Why do you want to send him a card?. It may be that you are still wanting his approval (which he will never give you). Many adult children of such toxic people still seek parental approval. He is really a weak willed bystander who is still acting out of self preservation and want of a quiet life. He failed you utterly when you were a child by enabling his wife and is still failing you now.

Your brother seems to be acting in his own interests rather than yours and so should be ignored. You do not need such people in your life like your dad, brother and his troublesome girlfriend.

I understand I can't control who is in my fathers life. I only want happiness for him and I'm actually glad he's enjoying life now. What I can't get over is how he can just throw away a relationship with me just because I won't conform to what he wants. He EXPECTS me to accept this woman into my life when I've told him over and over she's not part of my family and I don't want anything to do with her. He refuses to meet me unless she is present.

I think it is all about wanting parental approval still to be honest. I've spent my life trying to get my parents to really show their love for me. I've spent ridiculous amounts of money on birthday and Christmas gifts, would drop everything every time they needed anything from me but nothing was ever really appreciated. They couldn't wait to eject me from their house aged 17, they would take, take, take of everything especially as I got myself a good job so they knew I could financially afford it. My brother on the other hand has been allowed to live at home pretty much rent free and he's now in his late 30's.
I'd love to know what it was I ever did to them. Be born I guess.