"But we took you to Stately Homes!" Survivors of Dysfunctional Families

[OnceAMeerNotAlwaysAMeer]

It's November '15, and the Stately Home is still open to visitors.

Forerunning threads:
December 2007
March 2008
August 2008
February 2009
May 2009
January 2010
April 2010
August 2010
March 2011
November 2011
January 2012
November 2012
January 2013
March 2013
August 2013
December 2013
February 2014
April 2014
July 2014
Oct 14 – Dec 14
Dec 14 – March 15
March - Nov 2015

Welcome to the Stately Homes Thread.

This is a long running thread which was originally started up by 'pages' see original thread here (December 2007)

So this thread originates from that thread and has become a safe haven for Adult children of abusive families.

One thing you will never hear on this thread is that your abuse or experience was not that bad. You will never have your feelings minimised the way they were when you were a child, or now that you are an adult. To coin the phrase of a much respected past poster Ally90;

'Nobody can judge how sad your childhood made you, even if you wrote a novel on it, only you know that. I can well imagine any of us saying some of the seemingly trivial things our parents/ siblings did to us to many of our real life acquaintances and them not understanding why we were upset/ angry/ hurt etc. And that is why this thread is here. It's a safe place to vent our true feelings, validate our childhood/ lifetime experiences of being hurt/ angry etc by our parents behaviour and to get support for dealing with family in the here and now.'

Most new posters generally start off their posts by saying; but it wasn't that bad for me or my experience wasn't as awful as x,y or z's.

Some on here have been emotionally abused and/ or physically abused. Some are not sure what category (there doesn't have to be any) they fall into.

NONE of that matters. What matters is how 'YOU' felt growing up, how 'YOU' feel now and a chance to talk about how and why those childhood experiences and/ or current parental contact, has left you feeling damaged, falling apart from the inside out and stumbling around trying to find your sense of self-worth.

You might also find the following links and information useful, if you have come this far and are still not sure whether you belong here or not.

'Toxic Parents' by Susan Forward.

I started with this book and found it really useful.

Here are some excerpts:

"Once you get going, most toxic parents will counterattack. After all, if they had the capacity to listen, to hear, to be reasonable, to respect your feelings, and to promote your independence, they wouldn't be toxic parents. They will probably perceive your words as treacherous personal assaults. They will tend to fall back on the same tactics and defences that they have always used, only more so.

Remember, the important thing is not their reaction but your response. If you can stand fast in the face of your parents' fury, accusations, threats and guilt-peddling, you will experience your finest hour.

Here are some typical parental reactions to confrontation:

"It never happened". Parents who have used denial to avoid their own feelings of inadequacy or anxiety, will undoubtedly use it during confrontation, to promote their version of reality. They'll insist that your allegations never happened, or that you're exaggerating. They won't remember, or they will accuse you of lying.

YOUR RESPONSE: Just because you don't remember, doesn't mean it didn't happen".

"It was your fault." Toxic parents are almost never willing to accept responsibility for their destructive behaviour. Instead, they will blame you. They will say that you were bad, or that you were difficult. They will claim that they did the best that they could but that you always created problems for them. They will say that you drove them crazy. They will offer as proof, the fact that everybody in the family knew what a problem you were. They will offer up a laundry list of your alleged offences against them.

YOUR RESPONSE: "You can keep trying to make this my fault, but I'm not going to accept the responsibility for what you did to me, when I was a child".

"I said I was sorry what more do you want?" Some parents may acknowledge a few of the things that you say but be unwilling to do anything about it.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate your apology, but that is just a beginning. If you're truly sorry, you'll work through this with me, to make a better relationship."

"We did the best we could." Some parents will remind you of how tough they had it while you were growing up and how hard they struggled. They will say such things as "You'll never understand what I was going through," or "I did the best I could". This particular style of response will often stir up a lot of sympathy and compassion for your parents. This is understandable, but it makes it difficult for you to remain focused on what you need to say in your confrontation. The temptation is for you once again to put their needs ahead of your own. It is important that you be able to acknowledge their difficulties, without invalidating your own.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I understand that you had a hard time, and I'm sure that you didn't hurt me on purpose, but I need you to understand that the way you dealt with your problems really did hurt me"

"Look what we did for you." Many parents will attempt to counter your assertions by recalling the wonderful times you had as a child and the loving moments you and they shared. By focusing on the good things, they can avoid looking at the darker side of their behaviour. Parents will typically remind you of gifts they gave you, places they took you, sacrifices they made for you, and thoughtful things they did. They will say things like, "this is the thanks we get" or "nothing was ever enough for you."

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate those things very much, but they didn't make up for ...."

"How can you do this to me?" Some parents act like martyrs. They'll collapse into tears, wring their hands, and express shock and disbelief at your "cruelty". They will act as if your confrontation has victimized them. They will accuse you of hurting them, or disappointing them. They will complain that they don't need this, they have enough problems. They will tell you that they are not strong enough or healthy enough to take this, that the heartache will kill them. Some of their sadness will, of course, be genuine. It is sad for parents to face their own shortcomings, to realise that they have caused their children significant pain. But their sadness can also be manipulative and controlling. It is their way of using guilt to try to make you back down from the confrontation.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I'm sorry you're upset. I'm sorry you're hurt. But I'm not willing to give up on this. I've been hurting for a long time, too."

Helpful Websites

Alice Miller

Personality Disorders definition

More helpful links:

Daughters of narcissistic mothers
Out of the FOG
You carry the cure in your own heart
Help for adult children of child abuse
Pete Walker

Some books:

Homecoming
Will I ever be good enough?
If you had controlling parents
When you and your mother can't be friends
Children of the self-absorbed
Recovery of your inner child

This final quote is from smithfield posting as therealsmithfield:

"I'm sure the other posters will be along shortly to add anything they feel I have left out. I personally don't claim to be sorted but I will say my head has become a helluva lot straighter since I started posting here. You will receive a lot of wisdom but above all else the insights and advice given will 'always' be delivered with warmth and support."

Atilla I drafted about 3 replies to that thread but where do you start?

Personally I've never met anyone who went NC for trivial reasons. My DH's brother is NC with us and while I think he's scapegoated his brother for pressure put on him by his parents (and I suspect NC with us is a stepping stone to NC with his dad, but he's not ready for that yet) I also respect his decision. Why would you want to hang out with someone who doesn't want to be with you? I can't get my head round it.

I'm a bit at the people saying "adult children should treat their parents with the same respect they would any other adult." Right, fine, so with other adult relationships if you don't like it, you stop being in contact! That's what we've done.

I had to hide that thread. When people aren't ready to face up to their own truths, nothing I write is going to make them SEE reality.

I had to say something on that thread but now I wish I hadn't actually read it! Some of the comments on there have lodged in my head...talk of MN bandwagons etc by ignorant/inexperienced people, voices on there which remind me of critical toxic parent... I just wish I'd left that thread alone

I think there is a huge divide between people who get it and people who don't. Of course if your parents are just a bit annoying but you adore them really, or you've always had a supportive family, you are prone to come out with things like "but she's your MUM!" I've heard that loads. When one of my siblings went NC (before I did) I told a friend about it and she asked if my sibling was "always that vindictive". It can really drag you down, though I think it's not meant that way.

The same with presents - if you have experienced presents as a form of control/nastiness, it's so frustrating to be told "Oh she just wants to spoil her DGC, why are you spoiling her fun?" or "She's being generous and you're turning your nose up at it." That kind of thinking is the type of argument my mum uses too, when I know she is deliberately being manipulative and making it all about her - it's not generosity at all. But it's so hard to explain to people who haven't been there.

Of course that's why narcissists often make such a good job of convincing everyone they are lovely.

(And why it is so supportive to have the Stately Homes thread)

I am now constantly thinking about my mother, who I know is hurt and 'baffled'. She has asked me 'why' and I have not replied, thinking the truth would destroy her worse than my not being in contact. Even in the asking, she was thoroughly unpleasant about it. But I know she wouldn't understand, because she thinks how she thinks. Any reply or explanation would be rejected and also used against me in some way.

And yet, there's my mother with no daughter now, a broken heart etc. But for me to resume any kind of relationship with her after 15 or so years, would put me into the firing line for her abuse and I just can't do it to myself. I feel sorry for her, for the person she is and how she pushes people away from her by her unpleasant attitudes, opinions and behaviour. I know I haven't made a mistake, but sometimes it is hard to live with. I used to be the person who comforted her a long time ago. And now she hasn't got me. I would be devastated to be in her position, totally devastated. But I have treated my dcs very well and always with respect and love and a genuine desire for their happiness and I am pleased to report that my adult daughters both like and love me and they make that very obvious, and I am beyond grateful for that.

My M has told my brothers that I am 'ruining her old age'. I know she'd be happy if I just fell back into line. But I am over 50, haven't seen her for ten years, and before that for six, have a peaceful life without her and have protected my children from her harm. But once the dying and illness start (she is early 70s) …what the hell will I do?

Fanastic . That thread has got under my skin as well, I keep thinking about it and justifying myself. (I'm nearly 40 and have just gone NC, my mum's about ages with yours).

The thing is, what they need to be happy isn't the same as what we and other healthy people need. We want to see our kids do well and be happy, and we have lives outside of that too. They have no life, they just have this shitty pecking order where they need us to be on the bottom so they can be on the top. It's like a bottomless pit of negativity and you could easily sacrifice your life to it and only ever make them mildly satisfied. Bugger that.

Fantastic - you have wandered off into the FOG there a bit!
I always have to think carefully about the posts I write on here as its hard not to project - but nor can I do anything but speak from my own experience.
When I consider trying to "go back" - that - normalise it- thing..then I think of the story The curse of the monkeys paw - do you know it ? - the one where some-one has three wishes and wishes back someone they love who has died -but wishes them away again before they answer the door to what they finally realise can only be a rotting corpse?

Of course I would care for an ageing mother - but the one in my story really seems to me to be one from a horror story - I never got the silver haired - toasting crumpets round a fire on a winter evening ageing mother- Its a dead thing this relationship - it is actually reviving a corpse - its too f*g scary to "go back" for my own safety and sanity .
yes its awful to think of anyone suffering emotional pain, how often has your mother considered that about you before acting - how far are the standards she expects from you from what she expects from herself?

If she is ill - surly her beloved golden children can flock to her? and her friends - you are just one person., why is the responsibility yours ?

oh - and you are not, and cannot be, responsible for how she feels.

Hi all, I don't normally open this thread as I try very hard to keep my family out of my mind and feel grateful for my life now. Doesnt mean it isn't hard sometimes... But i have recently had an insight that has helped me so much to keep being me and not be dragged down by them. I am hoping it might help others as much as it has me.
Just because they're family doesn't mean I (you) have to like them as a person or love them. I will do what i feel i should morally (elderly parents), but dont feel the guilt any more that that's all it is. Also,what they think of me is less important to me now, cause I don't actually value their opinion, iyswim. Hoping it will hold up at Christmas...

It doesn't matter if you tell people like this why you are no contact or not, they just twist it anyway. And if you ever "went back" they'd just berate you for it forever anyway.
I wrote and told my mother why I didn't want to be in contact and offered the olive branch that if she could accept she'd behaved appallingly and really hurt me then perhaps we could have some contact. She just wrote back and called me a liar and told family I had written a "total character assassination" of her.
It can't go anywhere if she won't be a normal human being with some empathy and understanding that she's not the only person in the world, she fucked up and needs to apologise.
People with normal families sometimes don't get that, they don't really believe someone could be that much of a GIT and that fucking strident in their refusal to accept the blame.

Fantastic - you have wandered off into the FOG there a bit SO true! I know I have, and it's not a good place to be. Thanks for all these reminders, i do know really. But because she doesn't and never will understand, it only reinforces her victim status, and she really will believe going to her grave that her daughter dislikes her, what a way to end your life.

many people die in prison - you have chosen not to - she can make her own choice

and I know you know all this - but later on I'm going to need rescuing from some blind alley I've got myself stuck in - so I thought I'd build up my credit

But because she doesn't and never will understand, it only reinforces her victim status, and she really will believe going to her grave that her daughter dislikes her, what a way to end your life
That's exactly th same for my mum. She wrote to me this year and said something like "you obviously hate me". I have written and told her why I'm NC and offered an olive branch but it is just not possible for her to allow the tiniest hint of the idea that she might be at fault, so it has to become that I went mad and hate her. Like cognitive dissonance or something.
Me: You hurt me. I don't want to talk to you, at least until you can say sorry.
Her: I don't know what's happened, you obviously hated me all your life.
Me: No, you were horrible to me. I was hurt by it. You can apologise.
Her:I don't know what's happened, you obviously hated me all your life.
and so on.

It's very interesting re: you have wandered off into the FOG there a bit it's just so easy to do. I guess it's all part of a life's worth of conditioning, it's kind of instilled inside us.

When I heard that my M and SF had split up a couple of years ago and my M had moved to a town about an hour away I started about her being there all alone!!! Totally and utterly ridiculous.
To be honest I'm having to snap myself into line again at the moment because compared to my ILs my mother really doesn't seem that bad. Having said that I really could never go back. It has been 5 years now since I went NC with my mother and when I think about going back I can't actually even imagine anything that I would have to say to her. I have no interest in her or anything she does so it's not exactly a great conversation starter is it??
I will say that I do still grieve for the parents I never had, for the relationship with a mother that I should have had

With regards to my ILs we have received a Christmas card from them which reads: "To everyone at Name Of Our House
From FIL and MIL"

DC's 3&4 also received a Christmas card from them. The envelope was addressed to DC3 and MIL had quite clearly tried to disguise her handwriting!!
Inside it reads: "To DC3&4
Lots of Love From
Granny and Grandad xxx"

I realise now that ILs are obviously trying to do anything they can to get the attention of DC3 (DD2) whilst she is on the school bus. I noticed a few times when I have passed their house just ahead of the school bus that IL's had their outside brightly coloured fairy lights on, which believe me they very rarely ever used to put on(too tight to waste the electricity). Now it seems they have put their Christmas tree up in their conservatory which just happens to be clearly visible from the road. They have never ever had their Christmas tree up in the conservatory before and to drive passed in the daylight see the lights to be on is totally unheard of!!! They are so tight they virtually sit in the dark anyway rather than pay to have a light on
There was also a pumpkin on the roadside at the end of their drive on Halloween and for about a week after.

I'm sighing just thinking about it. They've also started frantically waving at DH every time he passes them in his work vehicle. Do they think that DH is going to just wave to them as if nothing has ever happened? And what is it with the Christmas card? And putting the name of our house in the card too when we haven't ever actually given them our new address!! It's all too much of a mind f*ck.

GoodtoBetter I guess if your mother was NORMAL you wouldn't have to offer her an olive branch to do the right thing and apologise. She will never acknowledge her wrong doing unfortunately, I think these sorts of people manage to somehow convince themselves that they have done no wrong.

My mother's words were similar GoodtoBetter, "you obviously don't like me one little bit" coming after her accusations of being unkind when I'd sent her a kind because I spared her reading what I actually wanted to tell her about herself reply email which was polite but did not feed her need for a fight; And just before her sarcastic and unpleasant comments about my DCs.

I must say at that point though, when I read her words, You obviously don't like me … I thought 'actually, that's the one thing you've got right - I really, really fucking don't!'

Good evening.

I've been away from the thread for too long, I know...

It's been a year where I've just been trying to soldier on. Had my heart absolutely broken in early spring, had the abusive ex back in the courtesy wreaking havoc one way or another and I am still trying to undo the damage he's caused again, when all that therapy I had when the fucker left almost 5 years ago had done so much To help. Don't get me wrong, I'm not the shadow I was, agoraphobic etc, but it's rattled me and my self confidence a bit. I could really do with another course of therapy, but I absolutely can't afford it.

I just couldn't cope with identifying as a person who had a crap family too.

But I have. It's DS birthday on Monday, so this starts the season of dread... The text from my dad not asking how we were just "hoping you and ds are well" before saying how he doesn't drive so much now as he's recovering from a surgery a few weeks ago. Even ds said (unprompted) it's all him, him, him isn't it?

Sis has contacted too, don't have an issue so much with her, but it's another reminder of how crap the situation is generally.

The saddest thing for me this summer was to see how absolutely bloody contemptuous of me the ex is, how he is identical to my mother, and how he, and also she will never, ever change and there is no hope for me ever to have any kind of relationship with any of them.

I do see why I went for the ex tho, the 'normal' I was raised with is no different to the "normal" he gave me. Makes it all so much more futile.

I wish Christmas could be happy for everyone.

I know this is a tough time of year, but I'm glad to see so much strength from so many here!

hissy lovely to see you again. Your son sounds very perceptive.

off out to Dutch in a moment but just wanted to say hi, and keep your chin up.

Hi Hissy for you. Just remember you have the benefit of hindsight now so you know what is coming and what you can or cannot do about it.

I think that just accepting that some things are totally out of our control helps to just be able to concentrate on ourselves and how we are feeling. You have accepted that you can not have a relationship with your mother or your ex so you need to move forward from this.......easier said than done I know!
You have to do what is right for you and your DC.

Tonight I went out to dinner with some friends and we were talking about our regrets in life. Most of the others said they had no regrets as they wouldn't be the people that they are today if they changed anything about their lives.
I told them that I have a regret.........always putting myself last, trying to please everyone else and making myself unhappy in the process. I almost feel bitter about the amount of time I have wasted trying to please others and the way that they have treated me in return....my mother, my exH, my ILs. I've been a push over and a total door mat. I really am cross with myself about this.

Mampam I think part of that regret may be fueled by you not forgiving yourself.
Not that you need to, but there is an assumption in what you say that you could have done better ...and that's critical voice thinking...I'm quite sure that with the tools available to you at any time, you did absolutly as well as you could do. Just as you do now.
I expect in reality you were spending time being really awesome trying to make a disfunctional family work. And only because you tried so hard an sacrificed so much were you finally able to step away and know, with certainty, you can't fix them because you spent that time trying everything. And now you can allow yourself to lead a guilt free life now without them.

So it wasn't time wasted, it was invested..at great cost...in the happiness of future you.
Don't regret it .

mampam agree with 665.

your PILs are some of the nastiest I've ever come across btw. Absolutely horrible to the core.

Agree with all of the above. As hard as it is to avoid getting sucked in, it's important to remember that the reason we do feel drawn, guilty and doubt ourselves is precisely because we are decent, kind and compassionate human beings.

If we weren't, we'd not feel so bloody awful about all this stuff.

They Can't deal with the truth, so minimise and ignore it, with the frantic and desperate efforts to get us back on side, or the tacit refusal to concede and actually say one simple and heartfelt word, sorry, they create this situation.

My mother would rather live without her only grandson, the first grandchild, and her first daughter than apologise for leaving her for emotional dead, or moving home without involving her in any of the details, without leaving a following address and when challenged replies "well, we were never that close" utter bollocks.

Oh and add in a surprise visit, with name calling, her dh shoving my boy about, barging doors and roaring at me/ds, then refusing to leave so I had to call the police.. And again no recognition of this, no apology, nothing.

It hurts. But I didn't do this. I really didn't.

One of the reasons people treat us with less regard than they should tho mampam is precisely BECAUSE we put ourselves last.

How can anyone put us at the top of their list, if we never show that sometimes we deserve to be and put ourselves first?

The issue is living with toxics is that us voicing our own likes/dislikes or preferences was seen as an erosion of their need for attention.

It really is me me me with them. Selfishness is good, but in moderation. They don't have that moderation, for them it's an insatiable need.

As hard as it is to avoid getting sucked in, it's important to remember that the reason we do feel drawn, guilty and doubt ourselves is precisely because we are decent, kind and compassionate human beings.

Wise words, Hissy.