How long should it take to "get" the whole fatherhood thing!?

[RPopz]

I'm really fucking tired of being the "default parent" all the time and I feel like it's breaking my marriage.

DS is 9mo - first and only child. I don't doubt for a second that DH loves him and he isn't a horrible father... But he just doesn't seem to get that life doesn't revolve around him and what he wants anymore! His life is basically unchanged apart from cuddling and bathing a baby for an hour after work each night. He'll dress him and do token nappy changes on his days off. Everything else I have to tell/ ask him to do. He has an unending list of hobbies and interests which he hasn't let slip at all since DS was born, basically spends all his evenings doing these, or on his phone messaging his mates. He goes out at least once a week - but I have to ask him to "babysit" if I want to go anywhere or do anything. He's on his phone CONSTANTLY (I'm not even joking, he even takes it in the shower with him). He hardly bothers to make conversation with me. Doesn't seem to get that his days off work are my days "off" from looking after the baby, and expects to spend the day catching up on tv/ Xbox. Happy to just dump DS in a playpen or whatever and ignore him. Never organises things for us to do as a family - it's always down to me to think of and organise. He does little round the house without being nagged. Its just his hobbies hobbies HOBBIES all the time. I feel like they're more important to him than I (we) are. Spends most of his money on them too...

I'm not the perfect wife. Not by any stretch. But I just can't stand him anymore. Just got this constant low level irritation towards him all the time. Can't stand him touching me (can't be arsed to pay attention to me - why should he get to grope me!?). Constantly shrugging him off - which granted probably doesn't make him feel like being more attentive towards me... We're basically just existing in the same house. From my pov anyway.

Just don't know what to do really. Talked to him about it a couple of times. Things usually improve for a day or so and then go back to normal. Kind of want him to leave.

Help?

Elendon - it's funny you should say that as I have been contemplating setting the timer on my phone, just to see exactly how much time in a week he spends "playing". To confront him with figures! Didn't know if that was a bit PA!

To offer an example which might be useful to you. Dp and I have had an agreement from the first that we have one night off a week. At first I couldn't take them as I was bfing 24/7, but now I'm catching up (dd18 months) so for example I'm out three nights this week (this is from before dd's bedtime).

We each get one lie in at the weekend, and now dd is no longer bf we take turns on night wake ups and early mornings during the week.

Could you instigate some routines like this?

You need to talk to him and outline how much your life has changed and where you need him to step up. He may be a selfish arse or he may not really understand what parenthood means or how much you do.

I am constantly surprised by my male and female friends who are in their 30s and we'll educated in professional jobs (including Drs!) and they still seem to be blindsided by just how much every aspect of their life has changed by having a baby.

I've had female friends who are HCPs seem surprised that mat leave isn't all about coffee mornings with friends and pursuing interests because they anticipated it would be like that after the initial first newborn weeks.

They thought baby would be happily in a sling while they went out for lunch or it would be easy leaving baby with their Mum while they go to the gym or whatever.

I find it bewildering but maybe because I come from a big extended family where there is a baby or two every year and we all muck in and see the reality!.

I make supportive noises and sympathise but I want to say 'FFS, you're an intelligent professional person, why are you surprised that you don't get any sleep, find the responsibilty relentless, don't have time to have a relationship with your DP and you don't get to go anywhere without it being a military operation'.

Until your DP really understands how much you're doing he won't 'get it'. So you need to tell him but he really should have realised this by now so I struggle a little to give him the benefit of the doubt but I'll try since you describe him as lovely in other ways.

If you tell him and he still doesn't 'get it' then you need to consider the future.

RPopz, I think what you describe is not unusual. Particularly if you are BFing. It does skew things towards you being the default parent.

I felt quite a lot like you did at 9 months. A bit different in that DH didn't go out much, or prioritise his hobbies over us, but he didn't do much of that before. He is a bit of a workaholic, so he would stay in the office late, or work at weekends and couch all of that as 'necessary for work'. Whereas a decent part of this was him hiding from the work of parenting. Also, I carried on BFing for a long time (just gradually stopping now at 28 months). For most of the period from 6 months + to 1 year is his attitude was often 'well you are BFing so there isn't much I can do. You should stop and I'll be able to do more.' He didn't and wouldn't see what he could have done to help me other than the feeding thing. BFing can be exclusionary (for them) and a control thing (for us) but I truly believe it was the best thing for DD, and DH came around to seeing that, how much is has meant to her as a toddler.

DD is now 28 months and things are much better. But it didn't just happen. Here are some things I did:

1. Go out / away for significant periods of time. e.g. I insisted that he support my return to work by taking one day off a week to look after DD for the first six months. I went away for two night on my own when DD was 9 months. I expressed enough milk for her. two nights away was my longest trip, but I aimed through the first year to arrange a full day out for me at the weekend least once a month. I also went away for a night on work related things three or for times. Long enough that he had to sort any problems and couldn't just wait for me to come back. Weekends were good for him learning to look after and enjoy DD himself, work overnights made him realise what getting DD ready in the morning and getting back in time for the nanny to go home really meant.

It meant he appreciated what I did much more, and forced him to figure it out for himself, so that when I was back around, there'd be a positive effect for a while, able to put her down for naps etc. In that first 18 months of so it did really annoy me that I never got 'down time' at home. he'd take her out, but not for long. That is better now, though. I needed to work yesterday so he took her out all day.

1. Book some nights off / out for myself. Whatever you want to do, see a friend, do your hobby. To get these at short notice I tend to tell DH I need to work late. he is work orientated so is v accomodating of this, although sometimes I use it to, say, do some sport at lunchtime, and then finish off my work that evening.

1. Will your DC take a bottle? Can you express, or would you be happy to do a mix with formula? looking back I could have lightened up and done a bit more mixed feeding after 6 months ish, although that is a personal choice.

1. Looked at myself. LIke you there were times where I felt ignored and unsupported by DH, like my world had changed and his hadn't. He does carry much responsibility for this. At the same time, as you have acknowledged, part of it is about being prepared to step back and let him do it. Let him figure it out, let him find his way, part of this is letting him fail. Your DC will be ok with this every now and then. I found it more or less impossible to watch, though, hence the going out! Much easier if I wasn't there. In doing this, they built a direct relationship: he found being able to sort problems empowering, and over time he really started to love spending one on one time with DD. When I am around I tend to be the 'star' a bit - I found going out gave them space to build their own relationship, which makes it more rewarding for him.

1. Big redistribution of household chores. We are lucky that we can afford help (nanny and a cleaner twice a week) at the same time, that doesn't cover everything, there is still shopping and cooking to do, and all the laundry to get done. then longer range admin like organising our house renovation etc. Our split was that I did the domestic stuff and he did the renovation planning etc. That carried on when I went back to work until I realised that my responsibilities were relentless and urgent (always need food to eat and clean clothes to wear). While his were postponeable when he got busy. One night when Id got out of bed to put on some washing after he'd fallen asleep, got up to deal with a night waking, then got up with DD an hour before him, only to leave for work 30 mins after him (he got up, showered, and left, while I dealt with DD and hung the washing up) I had a volte face. Now he does all the laundry. It takes a good few hours of his time and makes a big difference to me.

Also to clarify, by 'star' I mean when I'm there they both tend to default to me. if you are out, and he knows you won't be back for 5 hours, that isn't possible....

Mines the same!! When I say anything he just says "you wanted this more than me & you've got everything you ever wanted" well I expected a little help you Knob!! He holds DS now & again when I'm cooking or need a shit & now has to put him to bed twice a week for me to work my night shifts. I don't think it will event change now!

Just caught up on your more recent posts. It doesn't have to be 'put up or shut up or loose your marriage'. And you are not being silly or petty. This is a real thing, it matters a lot. Most people would describe me as a strong and assertive person, and I went through something v similar.

Talking might work, but I suggest that will be more effective if you 'do' first.

Sit him down and say that, as he knows you've been working v hard on this parenting thing for 9 months now. But DS is a bit older, and you need a break, and you think he is ready for that. So you'll be going out to X thing on Y night. And you'll be going to this all day thing on Saturday the x of October, leaving at 9am and coming back at 5pm.

do a bit of that and then see where it gets you. Maybe do 'the talk' after, or heap praise on him for how well he's handled it, and then hand over a task permanently (night wakings? getting up with him in the morning? committing to have him one night a week so you can do x or y thing).

now we have a bit of distance on it, my DH and I can talk about what was going on in the first year, but I think we have someway to go on full acceptance. e.g. just last week DH was complainging that I under appreciated the work he was doing on our house renovation. I nearly strung him up, considering that he never thanked me for doing all the bedtimes, and all the night wakings bar about 20 for 18 months. he now appreciates the power of breast feeding, but has never really thanked me for that either.

In terms of how he will know what to do when you go out, there's two options:

1. go out and leave him to figure it out. Point out where the expressed milk or formulat is, and then switch your phone off when you get out of the door. A bit brutal, but some people just won't want to listen to your approach.

1. provide him with a plan. By stealth if necessary.

DH told me he didn't want me to tell him what to do, found it patronising. But DD was a demanding baby and things like timing of naps and feeds really mattered. If I came back and he'd cocked it all up, it was me that paid with a rough night afterwards. So when I went back to work, I wrote down her schedule, complete with strategies for what I did to fix it when things went wrong. I told him it was for the nanny, I told the nanny it was for him. In truth it was for both of them, and the both used it a lot!

RPoz I wouldn't think that was passive aggressive.

If anything, he is the one being passive aggressive, because lying around will eventually get a reaction from you - and it has! Do the timer, do it!

I breastfed both my children for two years each. That did not limit my ex husband. He did all the nappy changes when he was home, bathed them most nights, settled then both after their night feeds, did all the cooking in the evenings. These were things that he just did. He did other things when asked. Except mowing the lawn. That was a battle. It isnt a man thing, it is a spoilt lazy manchild thing.

This sounds uncomfortably like me when my kids were babies, OP. I’ve never had hobbies but I was pretty work-obsessed. But don’t give up hope just yet; I got my act together after a bit. I was pretty freaked out by the arrival of kids but, like many a man, I behaved as though I was cool with it, for all the usual reasons: didn’t want to appear hopeless, didn’t want to appear hopeless and, er, didn’t want to appear hopeless. I was effectively useless.

You know who got me to change? My children. When they were babies they seemed 10% lovely and 90% scary. But as they grew, and as I spent more time with them, those proportions gradually changed until, somewhere between 1 and 2, I loved them 100%. Certainly, by 3, I was totally chuffed with the way I could entertain them and answer their amazing questions. They charmed me, and I fell in love with them, once I’d gotten over my panic and my efforts to hide the panic. I think your OH might just be in denial.

I totally agree with OutsSelf - I had exactly the same experiences, e.g. of taking the kids out totally unprepared, I had some emergency dashes into chemists for everything I’d forgotten but this was exactly what I needed.

What about your DP though oneeyed ....?

He's generally a pleasant guy who just really REALLY likes wargaming... confused. He can be selfish and lazy, but I knew that when I married him. He can be so laid back sometimes he's practically horizontal - but that's my pay off for being a total control freak and getting to have final say on pretty much everything. I don't know why he doesn't care about how difficult he's making my life. Maybe he's not in love with me anymore... I've taken a pretty intense, attachment style approach to parenting. Our relationship has taken a hit as a result. I didn't expect to love my son so much.

I know what you're saying that you don't feel this is a big problem and you feel silly to be complaining which is why I have not copied the first sentence. You don't need to compare, because somebody is always going to be in a worse situation. You need to think - is this a problem for me, and has it gone past the point where I can deal with it myself? Yes and yes. This is now requiring his input to solve.

Selfish and lazy... we can all be selfish and lazy, that is totally human. And there is nothing wrong with marrying somebody who is a bit selfish and lazy if you know that you can tolerate those particular faults. I'm selfish and lazy and somehow my DH still likes me BUT if the selfishness and the laziness is getting to unreasonable proportions, then it's not unreasonable of you to point that out. He is married to you, after all, which doesn't mean that he has to erase all of his negative traits entirely, but he should be trying to ensure that they don't place more of a strain on your life than is necessary. You can be selfish and lazy while looking after kids - you don't have to be some kind of Father Christmas gym instructor all in one. It's just about him considering your needs and your DS' needs, and not assuming that you will sort out all of the latter just because you're the mum.

On the control freak/laid back dynamic. If that works for you, then great, but it's not working in this situation, which might be something about him not taking initiative, except when it comes to the part that you've told him already what you want and yet he hasn't responded. So it might be that you need to step back the control a bit to actually allow him some space to bond with his son. If he's got space and he's not doing it, then I don't know - I'm thinking along the lines of possibly him worrying about getting it wrong by your standards (but, TBH, this line is trotted out a LOT to excuse blokes from doing nothing, and I think it's a pretty crap excuse.)

He should care about how difficult he's making your life. Absolutely. Does he know? Is he being spectacularly self absorbed and not noticing? Is he being a giant doofus about what's actually involved in caring for a baby full time? (Does he read, could you get him to read "What Mothers Do"?)

Whether or not he is in love with you is not something you can control and not something that you can break by parenting. If he's not in love with you, that might explain the strange detachedness of his behaviour, but I don't think it's the immediate question you need to be asking.

The AP stuff is fine. If that is the way you want to do it and it's working, there is nothing wrong with it. I will say, though, that I also had a partner who was totally uninterested, and I, too, adopted a very fierce and quite intense AP style of parenting and would have defended it to the ends of the earth. Indeed, I frequently wanted to take DS and run away to a cave where nobody would bother us. But in hindsight, and with the contrast I now have with a DH who is hugely involved (and that was hard at first, but so worth it) I think if I had another baby tomorrow, I would not be as intensely AP. I still believe in many of the principles, I wouldn't sleep train, I would use slings, I would co-sleep, but my gut feeling is that I would be less obsessive, I would be more likely to encourage the baby to go off to others, and I'd be really happy for DH to have a large role in a way that, actually, I don't think I was happy for my XP to have, which was mostly because he was a bit of a twerp who was totally uninterested in the baby and I didn't feel safe leaving my baby in his care for long periods of time. In a way, I think that all of the intense AP stuff was me trying desperately to make up for his total lack of attachment and affection. Perhaps in its own way it even created a vicious cycle where I was extremely attached and he was not, and the gap was so vast that he felt it inadvisable to try, although I don't really believe this - looking at his behaviour in subsequent relationships, he was just as detached with his other children, and the mum didn't strike me as the AP "type". So it probably made no difference at all. And friends who I met through AP groups had a total mix of husbands, from the hippy beardy dads to the ones who thought it was a load of soft nonsense but secretly loved it, to the ones who were a bit bemused but got on with it anyway. The totally uninvolved ones were, generally, uninvolved and the parenting style made no odds.

I also think that AP only detracts from your relationship if you've been acting as a mother to your partner before childbirth, which isn't really a sustainable dynamic anyway. If you've got a more equal set up, then either:

• They're involved and totally into the AP thing too which means the whole AP thing is much more shared, manageable, less intense, it's not the same all consuming thing and your relationship grows stronger.
• They get that this is "your thing" and they hang out on the sidelines a bit while you're doing that intense mothering bit, but they are supporting you and admiring you for doing so, with practical and emotional support in spades.
• You bumble along together both admitting that you don't really know what you're doing and the "AP thing" doesn't become such an obsession, because it's not so much a grasp for control and it's not such a worry.

The feelings of motherhood are intense and impossible to describe before you experience them, and I think that perhaps there may be an element that you're making up for his lack of involvement, AND you're doing this all alone which is making it much more overwhelming for you.

Sorry, this ended up absolutely massive, but I wanted to finish it (the ending might be a bit garbled because I forgot I was writing it halfway through and now need to go to bed!)

I really hope that you can find a way through, but it's going to involve some frank talks where you don't ask him for specific things, but instead explain exactly what problems you are having and work together to find solutions to them. You could ask him specifically to cut down on xbox time, but I think asking him for specifics is a bit of a lost cause - he needs to understand what the problem is from a relationship POV and then be able to work with you to actually fix it, not just make a token effort "because the wife says so". The war games can be addictive, but it's possible to cut down. DH is only in guilds now with close friends or with people who also have children so none of them throw a hissy fit if somebody needs to leave suddenly or can't play as often as they used to. It's just a part of growing up and how life changes. Games can be a harmless way to relax, but he needs to be responsible over it.

So One eyed bloke how much did you do in the first year. You know when they wake every couple of hours wanting a feed. You said the "change" didnt come till they were between 1 and 2.

Yep funny how the change occurs when the newborn tiredness/hard work gets easier .

Why all these excuses for men opting out of their responsibilities? It's not that they don't "get it" it's that they don't want it. And society perpetuates that view. It is OK for men to leave the work to women. It is to be expected. They need time, the poor loves. It's not easy for them, what with "male PND" and all. Even though they haven't had a sleepless night and barely changed a nappy and certainly didn't push a 7lb human being out of their body. Women you need to adjust your behaviour think of their needs to enable them to bond with their own children. They can't be expected to take the initiative or actually want that to happen. That would mean taking responsibility for their own behaviour.

And I agree with Bertie about the dynamics of AP. AP is very hard work with a partner who isn't supportive or who is actively undermining you. Probably harder than if you were single.

Well, this was 23 years ago but to the best of my recollection I changed nappies from birth onwards, stayed up with DW while she BF'd, drove round the block with DCs when they wouldn't go to sleep, had them on evenings when DW had expressed enough to give herself a night out. Those breast cup things were a life saver. But I was an utter 'assistant parent' for the first year at least. Had to be told what to do & when to do it. Not that DW was experienced with children, she wasn't at all. But she took charge & I followed in her footsteps at best. So I was willing, at least in theory. But the main thing was, I didn't take decisions, or the initiative ever. This is what gets DW's goat, even today: when I leave stuff to her by default. I'm better than I was, but it's very true that your typical bloke has a very traditional image of a woman's role, especially when kids appear. It's a largely unconscious thing.

ExH was like this. All PS and no parenting. Or support.

I made a list of what I did all day (16hr work, housework etc) and on his side he put FT work.

I wasn't smart or brave enough to run screaming at that point. However when my neighbour bluntly informed me like it was my fault for being at work that she'd saved my 2yr old 2DS from potentially drowning in her pool while the ex played PS totally unaware DS had even left the house I lost my sh**.

He made it clear that it wasn't a big deal as far as he was concerned-after all he hadn't drowned so I was as usual massively over-reacting.

I threw him the out shortly thereafter and he remains a useless father to this day.

DH by comparison, was selfish 'by accident' to start with-he was fantastic whilst on paternity leave but once back at work and having travelled for hours to actually be at home he wanted some down time. He hadn't factored that I hadn't actually had any while he had been away. He, like oneeyed was a bit of an 'assistant' on his return, rather than actively 'taking' a role and hence I effectively had no respite. I only had to explain that for him to step up 200% though, especially as he'd genuinely thought that my family would have been far more support while he was absent than they actually had been.

To sum up? Talking is key, and if they don't change, so is walking.

Mine was like this but got better and our marriage survived. It was totally unexpected as he was always the more nurturing one, but I think subconsciously he was repeating how his parents behaved (FIL worked long hours and was quite hands-off, MIL was SAHM). I dealt with it by:

1. telling him clearly and repeatedly that I was a) finding it hard, and b) didn't know what the fuck I was doing. There's no magic knowledge a woman gets when she gives birth!

2. made it clear this was a longterm thing. I lied to him and said that if he left me (which he threatened to do because his life was so hard following the baby ) a judge would grant him sole custody of the baby as he's a lower earner than me. This is clearly bullshit and in reality I would have wanted custody, but I wanted him to realise there was no running away.

c) Gave him 50% responsibility. Lots of "do you want a lie-in Saturday or Sunday?", "do you want to feed the baby or do her bath?". 50% every time, ensuring I got just as much down-time as him. I did sympathise if he'd had a hard day at work but just re-emphasised that we both had it hard in different ways. The best was when we were on holiday because I could insist on 50/50 without him using 'tired from work' as an excuse.

d) returned to work. May not be an option for you, and is a very personal thing, but I found once I was back FT (when DD was seven months) it became easier to insist on fairness.

Not all men will change but mine did. If you had something good before the baby was born there's still the possibility you could get it back, but be clear to yourself that his current behaviour can't continue.

I can clearly remember thinking, during the first few weeks, "As long as I get some time to myself each day, I'll be OK." And then after a few months, " As long as I get some time in the week." And, eventually, after a lot of denial & discord, the realization that there was going to be NO guaranteed 'me time' for years, it was all about getting it all gripped & having to grab time whenever an opportunity happened along, or better still you'd planned it all out. We went to NCT classes, but nothing prepared us for life with two pre-school DCs. If you'd asked me then was I going to be a proper 50/50 father, I'd have said "Of course," but I had no realistic idea of what I was in for. OP you have to work out somehow is there anything in your OH you can work with. I think Dougal is bang on target, all the talking in the world won't help much, I had all the talk, brave ideas of equality. You need to leave him to get on with it. You'll quite literally be doing him a huge favour.

But not being funny, Oneeye, hasn't OP already been leaving him to get on with it? And he isn't stepping up. She needs support NOW, she can't wait until some unchartable moment where he might suddenly work out what is going on. She needs to ask for that support but he does need to have a hand in working out how he's going to support her, because token efforts don't work long term.

I'm glad you found your way with your DC and you obviously had good intentions but it is pretty selfish - it's overwhelming and frightening for mums, too, you know, but we don't get the choice to just delegate it to another person because there is no other person there.

Actually, I don't think being obsessed with gaming is trivial. It's taking his attention away from where it should be, and that's bad, whether it's caused by drinking, gambling, or an affair. Being there and yet not being there is so frustrating.

Thanks for the replies everyone, I'm still here. Just processing everything.

Yesterday he came home from work with a new book for minipopz. Read him it, bathed him and cooked tea for us. Spent rest of the evening staring into his phone (but no cards!!). Got up this morning and left without saying goodbye to us. Washing up left, dog not walked, dog turds still in the garden... I don't really know what's going on or what my actual issue is anymore.

I'm quite jealous of dadof2's wife.
Gosh, I literally never go out. H is never in from work before 8pm.
I have 3 kids under 6 and he literally does sweet FA with them.
He doesn't bath, dress or put them to bed.

I have a 38week old DS. Me and DH are 36. We have been married 6 years and we had a lovely life before we had DS. Both had good jobs, nice house, loads of time together doing what we liked. Holidays, friends, nights out , great sex and lots of it. Lots of fun together. Best friends. We thought it would be a doddle.

He is a fantastic dad. He loves DS to bits and spends loads of time with him. He does everything for him, takes him out for walks, plays with him, baths him, feeds him, changes him, comfortshim, just likes to be with him. He has endless patience, tolerance and time for him.

But life has certainly changed. It's not all fun and easy anymore.We are both tired. DH has been promoted and works much more. We have to find time for us. Papers and books are things of the past. Going out together is a treat.Saturday or Sunday mornings in bed are a forgotten pleasure. The house is all baby stuff and takes much more lookng after. We hardly ever see friends. Holidays are not about us. Our hobbies are reduced. But sex is still good and we do love each other.Still BFF

We really work at everything. So Saturdays and Sundays are family time where we do nice things that we both enjoy with DS. Once we would have gone out and had a walk and a lazy lunch and an afternoon in bed then gone out at night , now we walk DH on the beach, take him for lunch, walk home, play with him, make tea, bath him, DH reads him a story and put him to bed and we eat together and have an early night. Or DH takes him swimming, we have lunch, go for a walk, play with him, make tea, bath him.

It is hard to believe how much a baby changes your life. He just comes first all the time and you find out if you can be selfless. DH is better than I am at that. DS is an easy baby and a little bundle of joy really and we would not be without him for anything, but there are times where I resent the total loss of my other life and sometimes I just leave him with DH for a day and go off and do something I like without either of them. Then I feel selfish and guilty.