What pushes you from liking someone to actively getting them into your life?

[ToGoBoldly]

Hi,

What the thread title says, really.

I'm really struggling with feeling isolated and lonely. I've felt like this all my life, but it's been really intense recently so I have been feeling even more low than I ususally do.

I have a handfull of friends but no one really close, and they are all kind of fairweather friends. They've all kind of retreated away from me into their own lives, which is fine, I accept people grow apart, but it feels like everyone in the world has a network of friends and a partner, and I am being left on my own. I try really hard to get out and meet new people and stuff, but I feel like I am constantly rejected and it is really, really difficult to bear.

I have been doing some work on my feelings around this with my therapist and have been asked to drill down on why I believe I don't form close bonds with people. I can only think that people don't like me enough - they don't dislike me, but they don't like me enough to actively want me in their lives. It's as simple as that. She's tried to suggest I might be familiar with the feeling of rejection so kind of invite it, but I really don't think that's true. I try really hard to go out of my comfort zone with people - I am shy but friendly, I invite people to things, I make the first move, I volunteer myself for things, I am generous, I'm laid back and not pushy... but none of this seems to count. It feels like plenty of people think I am nice enough but they don't want or need me as a close friend. I don't blame other people for this - no one is obliged to be friends with everyone - but I just feel like everyone chooses people to be in their lives, but no one chooses me. And I've really hit a wall in trying to work this out.

This post sounds really needy and whiny, I promise I am not like this when I am trying to make friends or boyfriends! Like I said I am having counselling (for various things) but we've kind of reached an impasse on this one.

I've felt like this forever. I felt it at primary school, at secondary school, at university, at work, and in my love life. The only way I could explain clearly to my counsellor was how I felt it at primary school, so their behaviour is clear, not because they are horrible children but because they don't try to hide their feelings. But you can see more clearly with kids how people naturally gravitate towards those they want to be friends with, and that often is the really pretty girl, or the boy who is really good at football or whatever. I don't think things change a lot as an adult, it's just more subtle. And I don't think anything bad about people who have those who gravitate towards them and want to be their friend, but I just feel really sad because it feels like no one naturally gravitates towards me. It makes me feel really unloved and depressed.

I try to be proactive, no matter how many knockbacks I get I try to carry on with life and try new things, but it's really overwhelming. I asked my counsellor what she thinks I could do differently, but she is either stumped, or wants me to work the answer out myself. But I really can't think of anything beyond "people don't like me enough", which is their prerogative, but really hurtful when it feels like I'm not good enough for anyone I've met in my whole life.

So I guess I'm trying to bash out these thoughts a bit more. Am I just hideously unlucky that I never seem to meet people at the right time for them to want to pursue a friendship or relationship with me? Or what is the magic ingredient that makes people want to move things forward? I feel like there is a locked door and people will smlile and wave at me through a window and think "there's that woman, she's nice", but they won't ever invite me in, if that makes sense.

I am sorry if this sounds quite immature and self indulgent

Argh typos! No more beers...

springydaffs

Oh, God no! Those fuckers can fuck right off. As far as I'm concerned, compassion for those who have abused us should stop at managing to think of them as human beings, and only then so as to moderate our own behaviour towards them!

Boldly

I'm sorry, I don't feel like I'm helping much here. What has happened to you is unforgivable. But remember that 31 is still young, I was much less aware of my issues than you are when I was your age. Things do get easier as you get older, they really do.

As was said upthread, the brain is plastic and you can still learn and develop. You may be broken right now, but that doesn't mean you always will be.

phys.org/news/2010-12-brain-fully-mature-30s-40s.html

I didn't used to think I was the anger-expressing type either. Now I am, on my own in a quiet place when I need to be. It's strangely empowering. Also, verbalizing makes things more visceral, at least for me. Whenever I'm upset I talk to myself or argue on my own with whoever has upset me. I'll even swear out loud at them (not when they're around, though). It helps me process the situation. Not sure how it works, but it does.

If anyone saw me, they'd certainly think I was mad - pacing round the kitchen calling X a "total fucking cunt"! I'll go to bed pissed-off and wake up feeling like I've moved on a little. Sometimes I wake up and go "Of course! That's why I was so upset. Not what I thought at all!". Other times I'll wake up determined not to let anyone put me in that situation again.

I think anger evolved to help us overcome oppressive social forces and break away / protect us from people that treat us badly. It's there to make you change something even if you're afraid or feel it's impossible. If you control it too tightly, the changes can't take place. If you vent it at other people, it causes hurt. If you channel it, though, the changes will be positive. I used to think the first two options were the only ones. Now, I see the third option. Maybe it's as simple as expressing anger is a way of learning how anger works.

They don't come with a stamp on their face saying they will treat me poorly, and indeed they treat other people perfectly well.

Have you read about abusers, and how they often have an external persona of normalcy or even loving generosity? That's how they get away with their abuse - fooling most people into thinking they couldn't possibly be abusers. It's quite likely these people who are treating you like crap treat others like crap too - you just don't get to see it because they hide it so well.

The "there must be something wrong with me because they don't treat other people like that" feeling is one of the main weapons of the abuser. It's how they stop you realizing there's something wrong with them.

I don't feel so much that there is something wrong with me, as I am just not supposed to be here. I have a choice between bad people (obviously not one I wish to take), or being alone. Good people are not interested in me (because I am damaged?). I haven't done anything wrong, neither have they, I just don't think I am meant to be here.

She probably won't explain the process bcs 1. It's different for everybody and 2. It could influence you (engaging your head/thinking) - like when I tell people about a film/book I have to hold back my interpretation or response to it in order to not influence their experience of it.

I do think you could try it and see what happens - or how can you have an opinion on it if you've never experienced it? I can see you think it's like a religious experience possibly bcs it comes in the category of something that can't be explained or rationalised. Not only will the therapist keep you safe but you also will have full control over what happens - it's not like being hypnotised - so you can rest about that: she won't take over, she'll keep right back.

Btw. I hesitate to say this but your abusers treated you like a non-person, not real, effectively wiped you, the core you, out. You feeling you shouldn't be here looks too much like their opinion. Yy I appreciate you feel like this bcs of your experiences throughout your adult life but I do think the two are linked.

And I do think something like this can't be resolved using rational, it has to be experienced. Understanding it, its effects, as you do, is beneficial but doesn't ultimately address it effectively.

Boldly

We are all meant to be here. Well, not meant to be here (remember, I'm a die-hard atheist too), but we all have a purpose.

The Universe is just a bunch of atoms. No free will, no God, no externally imposed meaning. A deterministic existence where physical laws govern everything that happens.

Except we exist and we have feelings and we have experiences. Each one of us is a remarkably complex series of patterns woven out of simple laws of chemistry and physics. A series of patterns that has a sense of morality and value and that is capable of learning what it means to exist, both the good and the bad. Every one of us has something to contribute to the Universe because every single personal experience is entirely unique and (bit of Chaos Theory here) entirely un-reproducible. If it wasn't for us sentient beings, the Universe would be a dead, barren nothingness. Our subjective sense of meaning doesn't come from our 'soul' or from some mystical other place. It comes from the laws of the Universe, and so it follows that we are what gives the Universe actual objective meaning.

Every time you do something nice and make someone else have a moment of happiness, you have made that happiness. It's a little pattern of information (stored in electrons, chemicals, DNA switches and so forth) that wouldn't ever have existed if it wasn't for your actions. You have given it to the Universe. So, the simple fact of our existence gives the Universe a purpose. Those religious people have it wrong - they've been externalizing what comes from within us!

You are not at the end of your journey yet, not by a long way. As I said, 31 is still young. Sometimes you just have to tough it out. There are still things you haven't tried yet, and you never know when things will start to get better. And you are now a part of our lives too, and so you're tied to us and our own information patterns of meaning. Even if you don't feel like you should be here, I DO feel like you should be here - and in a very real, objective sense (as I'm pretty sure I exist and am not a figment of your imagination) that means you should be here.

See, told you I was quite spiritual! :)

The Universe is just a bunch of atoms. No free will, no God, no externally imposed meaning. A deterministic existence where physical laws govern everything that happens.

Woh! In your opinion lovely. You can say whatever you like, believe whatever you like, but please clarify it is your opinion.

Springydaffs

My apologies, you are absolutely right. That is my opinion, just one of many.

Good point about how we're linked - already. I care about you a lot for the record. (Hope that's alright)

... and that's why I find it hard to keep friends. :(

Intheprocess personal failing No 1: the need to justify and explain everything I feel to the nth degree. ToGoBoldly I care about you too.

Ha! Maybe that's a characteristic of us fucked-up-as-children types: Lots Of Opinions.

People ignorant people sometimes say to me 'You're opinionated!' To which I hotly retort 'No! I have lots of opinions don't you? No, too stupid '

Opinions, lots of, all fine with me. More than fine, actually.

Have you thought of fostering a child?

I can't even really afford to buy a crappy one bed home for myself, I doubt I would be able to provide for a needy child. I don't think I'd pass the social services tests anyway.

ToGoBoldly, once again I get where you coming from because I feel the same, I think.

The "cherishing the hurt little girl inside" stuff sounds woo and irrelevant and you can't suspend your disbelief to do it. You can't make yourself believe something—in this case, that it will change the way you feel about yourself and that will make other people treat you better.

And (in my case at least) the therapist not won't but can't explain how or why it's supposed to work, or what exactly you are supposed to do/say/feel while doing it. And then you feel it's your fault for not being able to do it.

And without a rational explanation even of the mechanics of it you're even less able to do it, even go through the motions—what motions, exactly?

And trying it doesn't change anything now, and now is when you need things to change.

Hi Boldly,

What is it you do for a living? And what did you study at University?

Intheprocess I can't say my job exactly but work in the education sector. Not massively well paying but I enjoy my job, by and large. I think my degree would make me too identifiable as well but it was arts rather than science.

Yes Weevil, exactly that. I will talk about it happily but I don't see what I am supposed to do with that information. It's not like I can confront the people that hurt me now. Yea I can talk about how I was abused as a child. What can anyone say about it? "Oh that's terrible. Can you tell the police?" No. I just don't see what there is to say. I know it was bad. I know someone else treated me terribly and used me as an object for their own ends. I know that has no bearing on my worth as a person. What more is there to say on the matter? All that can happen is the discussion "oh that's terrible. How did it make you feel?" Yes it made me feel shit. "Oh see that's why you feel shit and used now!" No, I feel shit now because no one is loving me, albeit in a different way. It might be a familiar feeling but it's a different cause.

Another thing that just came to mind was when I have said, to this and previous therapists, that I just don't feel like I am living a life because I don't have anyone tl share it with, they have asked me whether I believe everyone else's life is happy, and all their relationships are perfect. No of course I don't. Life has ups and downs for most people. But the people who have other people in their life are living life and having experiences and so on. I haven't had any of that because I don't fit in. I'm in a bubble.

If the point of asking me whether everyone I know is having extremely happy relationships is to prove everyone else is just as miserable, what point is there to life? If it's supoosed to make you feel shit and alone why can't you just check out if it's not working for you? What is the point in living miserably?

But I know not everyone is as miserable because when I've tried to discuss this they say actually no, I'm loving life thanks. And I believe them. It's not all rosy but it's not all gloom. I just feel nothing. I go to work and I do my hobby. I have no company. I try and try to find company but can't form relationships with people. So my life feels pointless. Having no relationships means having no impact, no one would notice whether you are here or not. If you are enjoying yourself in spite of that, great. But if you're not?

To be clear, I'm no just talking about romantic pr sexual relationships, I mean family, friends etc as well. I have no one.

Boldly

I ask because I'm wondering if you feel challenged in your life beyond social stuff. Loneliness is a big problem, obviously you're missing having significant people in your life. But there are other things we need too, a challenge being one of them. I certainly get something out of playing an important role in my job, and that's something I've had to carve out by looking for opportunities to push myself at work. I have looked at volunteer work and clubs etc, but tbh I've yet to see anything I feel would push me personally so I haven't bothered. I get that they would improve my social life but, maybe, that's not actually what I'm looking for. For me, I've realized that being valued by others as a person through what I do, rather than how well I play with others, contributes significantly to my sense of self.

Yes I do feel challenged at work, and that's also why I dance and try to take on other physical and mental challenges. I don't feel valued by this kind of thing. If I had a funeral tomorrow and the eulogy said "she tried really hard at work and did dance classes", what's the point if there's no one there to hear it? Who would give a fuck?

I remember seeing a naff film with Richard Gere and Jennifer Lopez in it—he plays a businessman who ends up taking dance classes from her because he's lonely in his marriage or something...anyway, lame movie apart from the dancing, and a discussion about what's the point of marriage. I forget if it's between him and the neglected wife, but one of them concludes, it's about having someone to be a witness to your life.

That has stayed with me ever since. My issues with solitariness include just not having the nerve to do things on my own but also thinking, what's the point? If I've seen a film and have no one to talk to about it, or summon up the nerve to handle a tough situation and no one knows or cares, why bother to keep trying?

ToGoBoldly, it won't solve anything, but if it's any consolation that otherwise perfectly competent people struggle to form real friendships/close relationships, there's a really good book by Emily White called Loneliness. She had a blog about it too for a while that you could google, though I think sometimes she was too overwhelmed herself to write about it.

I'm really struggling today. The more I look at everything the worse it is.

Hi Weevil. I know the film I love jLo , forgot that line but yep, it hits the nail on the head. I go to the theatre on my own, I go to the cinema on my own. I go to concerts on my own. I go to classes, fitness classes, arts or craft classes, academic classes, on my own. I go on holidays on my own. I go shopping on my own. I even used to go to bars on my own at one stage! I never meet people at these things, because hardly anyone else is on their own. They aren't looking to meet people. Fair enough, I also do these things for the sake of them, not to meet people. But they do not make life. Life is not about how many times you go to ghe theatre or where you go on holiday or what job or degree you have, it's the people who know and love you that make it living a life rather than just waking up every day, doing some activities then going to bed. I can't bear it if I have to do this for another 50 years. It hurts. I actually feel physical pain from it, I feel crushed that no one loves me.

OP - about my suggestion that you foster a child (I work in this world so hear me out). Fostering pays well; you sound like a good person with a lot of love to give; the assessments are mainly done by fostering agencies these days; there are checks, but having a very troubled background will not exclude you. What impresses social workers is how people have coped with adversity . Maybe you don't think you've coped well because you are not happy with your life, but from reading this post it is clear you have acheived, tried, and are avery decent person who could perhaps understand a troubled child. Foster carers aren't perfect people with perfect lives and backgrounds. Maybe something to keep if it appeals at all.